M

Mauskar

Enthusiast
HEy guys,

for those that know, i am auditioning polk rti10's off an onkyo tx-sr605 running 90X7. I just got off the phone with polk tech support since there was a small smell coming from the speakers. The tech claimed that I am overpowering the speakers and cliping and distortion might occur, causing the insulation on the wires to melt. My reaction was "Huh?".

Can anyone clarify what he was saying. His recommendation was to get an amplifier to push 200 watts/ channel...

Sag
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
That dont sound good,seems to me to be a design flaw in the speakers wiring or xover,overpowering/underpowering issues aside i would think for saftey reasons any reputible manufacturer woud take these issues into consideration durring the design process.

[/IMG]
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
If that is what the support guy said, he was contradicting himself. The Polks have a complex x-over and driver arrangement, they may be to much of a load for the Onkyo TX-SR605 to handle at higher levels of output. That Onkyo doesn't support preouts, so adding amplification isn't possible. The TX-SR705 has preouts and a bigger amplifier, and the TX-SR805 would be ideal to drive the Polks.

But, all that aside, if there was smell coming from the speakers and the receiver did not shut off I assume this wasn't an occurance at high levels of output, if it had been the receiver should have gone into protection mode. If this happened at high levels of output I would say that the Onkyo may be faulty, if it occured at modest levels of output I would say the speakers are faulty or damaged. Are all the drivers in the Polks still working? Is the receiver still working?
 
M

Mauskar

Enthusiast
both are working. I called Onkyo and got an idiot that told me that increasing the gains would alleviate the problem- im a newbie and know that the gains increase the signal response thus making it louder at the same volume level.

So, called back Polk and another tech explained to me what was happenning- the speakers i am using have dual 7" woofers which are drawing lots of power, and so when turning the volume up (more than 75%) its making the speakers work harder. His recommendations were:

1. Bring the gains down- temporary fix
2. Push the low frequency from the fronts to the subs, making the front work less/ more "efficient" - temporary fix
3. A receiver or amplifier that can push about 110 watts / channel

Does that make sense? Im still dazed and confused...

Sag
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
If they are brand new and/or the receiver is brand new, that could just be "that new electroncs" smell...

The 605 is probably barely enough to drive these guys to typical listening levels.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I have to admit JG, I never got the honor of smelling the "new speaker burn" with mine...
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
both are working. I called Onkyo and got an idiot that told me that increasing the gains would alleviate the problem- im a newbie and know that the gains increase the signal response thus making it louder at the same volume level.

So, called back Polk and another tech explained to me what was happenning- the speakers i am using have dual 7" woofers which are drawing lots of power, and so when turning the volume up (more than 75%) its making the speakers work harder. His recommendations were:

1. Bring the gains down- temporary fix
2. Push the low frequency from the fronts to the subs, making the front work less/ more "efficient" - temporary fix
3. A receiver or amplifier that can push about 110 watts / channel

Does that make sense? Im still dazed and confused...

Sag
Yes, the second tech guy is making much more sense. Though the wattage ratings are a less of a concern, it is more the ability to handle low impedance that is needed. A tube amplifier rated at 20 watts per channel could drive those speakers to insane levels of output because it has enormous headroom and can handle low impedances. I am not recommending you purchase a tube amplifier, I was just using it as an example. The Onkyo TX-SR805 would be a perfect match for the Polk RTi10s.:)

Greg Gable said:
I have to admit JG, I never got the honor of smelling the "new speaker burn" with mine...
I gotta go with you on that, I can't say I have ever smelled that with speakers.:confused:

To the OP of this thread. If you get a different receiver like the Onkyo TX-SR805 and the problem continues it is either due to improper wiring or the speakers are faulty. Good luck.:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
A tube amplifier rated at 20 watts per channel could drive those speakers to insane levels of output because it has enormous headroom and can handle low impedances.
Seth you may want to do some research on this topic. Tube amps are great but as far as I know in general they are not great for high current and low load impedance applications. McIntosh tube amps can certainly handle low impedance load but that is a different story and they have output transformers.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Seth you may want to do some research on this topic. Tube amps are great but as far as I know in general they are not great for high current and low load impedance applications. McIntosh tube amps can certainly handle low impedance load but that is a different story and they have output transformers.
From my understanding, Class A triode amplifiers can handle huge impedance fluctuations and they can also be driven passed their nominal power ratings for much longer than a transistor without clipping or becoming damaged. Even if only used to it's specified rating (assume the same 20 watt per channel amplifier) the Polk would scream, as they are pretty efficient. The power wattage of course would increase to nearly 40 watts if it dipped to 4 ohms and nearly 80 if it dipped to 2 ohms (not likely the Polk dig that deep, but possible).

What tube amplifier doesn't have an output transformer?:confused:
 
M

Mauskar

Enthusiast
So basically i am in a dilemma

I can either:

1. get the onkyo tx-sr805 that will drive these RTI10's and can add an amp later

OR

2. keep the current 605 and get some speakers that dont need such a draw on power, but produce clean highs and mids...Plus i wont be able to connect to an external outlaw amp in the future...

My brain is fried!

any thoughts about option #2, or am i leaving out any other viable options?

Thanks

Sag
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
So basically i am in a dilemma

I can either:

1. get the onkyo tx-sr805 that will drive these RTI10's and can add an amp later

OR

2. keep the current 605 and get some speakers that dont need such a draw on power, but produce clean highs and mids...Plus i wont be able to connect to an external outlaw amp in the future...

My brain is fried!

any thoughts about option #2, or am i leaving out any other viable options?

Thanks

Sag
I say speakers come before amplification. If you like your speakers, keep them and get a better AVR to power them. And if you feel froggy, get out and listen to some more speakers in your price range before you trade up your receiver, you might get luck and find some speakers you absolutely love that work great with the Onkyo TX-SR605. Also, if your Polks turn out to be faulty, you might be able to return them and get something different. It's all for your ears to decide.:)
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
So basically i am in a dilemma

I can either:

1. get the onkyo tx-sr805 that will drive these RTI10's and can add an amp later

OR

2. keep the current 605 and get some speakers that dont need such a draw on power, but produce clean highs and mids...Plus i wont be able to connect to an external outlaw amp in the future...

My brain is fried!

any thoughts about option #2, or am i leaving out any other viable options?

Thanks

Sag
A receiver won't handle these speakers, especially if you have 5 speakers hooked up to it. You will need a power amp if you want to send bass to those woofers. Ask Buckeyefan 1 about his RTi10s.

SheepStar
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
A receiver won't handle these speakers, especially if you have 5 speakers hooked up to it. You will need a power amp if you want to send bass to those woofers. Ask Buckeyefan 1 about his RTi10s.

SheepStar
I figured this was the case, it most certainly has something to do with the complex load.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
What tube amplifier doesn't have an output transformer?:confused:
Any tube amp based on a OTL (output transformer less ), there are a few manufacturers who use this design,take a look at Atmosphere amps to see the design.




OTLs Defined for the Beginner

The acronym 'OTL' refers to a tube amplifier that is Output TransformerLess. Regular tube amplifiers have very high voltages in them and by contrast most loudspeakers are low voltage. In order to convert from the high voltage of tubes to the low voltage of a speaker an electronic device known as a transformer is used. Transformers are large arrangements of metal that also have large amounts of wire in them. The wire is arranged in two sets of WINDINGs on the metal of the transformer (called the CORE), so there is an input and an output. The input winding is called the PRIMARY winding and the output is called the SECONDARY winding. OTL amplifiers do not use a transformer, and sidestep many of the barriers to high fidelity reproduction that transformers cause.

There is a debate about the relative merits of Single-Ended amplifiers vs. Push-Pull. Single-Ended amplifiers owe their 'magical' properties to the way the output transformer is used and to the use of zero feedback (we won't cover the zero feedback issue here). There is only a single power tube in a Single-Ended amp, which is connected to the output transformer. As it draws DC power through the transformer, it sets up a magnetic field in the transformer. This current (and field) is at one half of the total current possible when the amp is at rest. At no time does the magnetic field in the output transformer have to reverse polarity- it merely changes in strength.

It takes a small amount of energy to reverse the polarity of a magnetic field in an output transformer; this energy loss is known as 'hysteresis loss'. The energy to reverse the field comes from the signal. If you never reverse the field, this problem goes away. Thus in Single-Ended amplifiers it is relatively easy to make small changes in the current through the transformer. This accounts for the fine inner detail that Single Ended amplifiers are known for.

Push-pull amps by contrast have more bandwidth and power, as the dual power tubes produce opposing magnetic fields in the transformer (while the amp is idling), resulting in no magnetic field. This increases the amount of power and bandwidth the transformer is capable of, but at a price: low level detail. The major issues for small signals occur at the zero crossings: when the signal goes from negative to positive and back again. It takes energy to reverse the field (however small) in the transformer, and this energy requirement results in increased distortion. Thus push pull amplifiers lack the low level detail that Single-Ended amps have in spades.

Eliminating the transformer eliminates this issue and any arguments for single ended operation.

Removal of the transformer from the signal path also reduces other degradations of the signal. There is distributed capacitance in the windings (loading the tubes), series inductance (which can contribute to distortion), hysterysis loss (meaning that anywhere up to 20-25% of the amplifier power is used to create heat) and resistive loss in the windings as well.

These issues cause the transformer to inhibit bass, dynamics, and bandwidth. Detail is lost and tone colors are obscured. In larger output transformers it is almost impossible to get both the bass and the treble right at the same time due to these issues.

OTL technology allows this to be corrected. The lack of a transformer means that the amplifier can deliver the signal with the same speed as a transistor amplifier, but with the sonic benefit typical of tube amplifiers.

OTLs have suffered their own issues over the years, primarily due to the earlier efforts of Julius Futterman and the later failings of New York Audio Labs (Harvey Rosenburg). The Futterman circuit was for many years the most publicly visible OTL, and was prone to stability issues (caused by positive feedback nested within a global negative feedback loop). When in oscillation, (which could be caused by overload, component failure or even layout problems), the amp had a tendency to destroy itself. For many years the public has associated the weaknesses of the Futterman circuit with OTLs in general. Fortunately modern OTLs have solved the earlier problems of the Futterman by (for the most part) using entirely different circuitry.

In fact, every manufacturer who has ever attempted to produce a Futterman amplifier has failed. The public is very demanding of reliability. The 'Futterman legacy' is the largest marketing issue any OTL manufacturer has had to face.

At this point no accurate history of OTLs can ignore Atma-Sphere Music Systems. Founded in August of 1977, Atma-Sphere was created around its radical new approach to OTL technology and the [now attainable] principle of striving only for State of the Art in audio amplification.

Atma-Sphere's biggest claim to fame is that we developed and introduced the world's first reliable and practical OTL. This was accomplished by using a fully symmetrical output circuit (known as the Circlotron; first devised in 1954 by Cecil Hall), which resulted in low distortion. The low distortion meant that little or no feedback was required, resulting in a very stable amplifier. Atma-Sphere is also the first to offer an OTL amplifier in a fully balanced (differential) configuration, allowing for balanced and single-ended inputs. A further innovation was the first use of a fully symmetrical drive circuit for the output section.

The design has been quite successful; Atma-Sphere is now the largest and oldest manufacturer of OTLs worldwide.

There have been only three patents issued to OTL manufacturers since the 1950s; two of them belong to Atma-Sphere.

Our new OTL designs can drive a wider range of speakers than had been previously possible. Eight-ohm speakers can be easily used (and in the case of our larger amplifiers, 4 ohm speakers too), with far greater performance hen other technologies. OTLs are now a very practical choice for discerning audiophiles.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
LOL, I have never seen an OTL, Every tube amp I have seen has a transformer.:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
LOL, I have never seen an OTL, Every tube amp I have seen has a transformer.:D
I am sure you know, but just in case, I hope you didn't mistaken those power supply transformers with output transformers. :) Regardless, you are probably right, tube amps have output transformers more often than not.

When I said the Mc amps was a different story I meant for that kind of money it is not surprising that they can drive low impedance load and deliver tons of currents. Other than that dollar for dollar tube amps don't do as well as solid state amps in terms of high current capability. They do have good headroom but that has a lot to do with the "soft clip" characteristics. I mean, they sound sweet even at high levels of THD.
 
Last edited:
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
From my understanding, Class A triode amplifiers can handle huge impedance fluctuations and they can also be driven passed their nominal power ratings for much longer than a transistor without clipping or becoming damaged. Even if only used to it's specified rating (assume the same 20 watt per channel amplifier) the Polk would scream, as they are pretty efficient. The power wattage of course would increase to nearly 40 watts if it dipped to 4 ohms and nearly 80 if it dipped to 2 ohms (not likely the Polk dig that deep, but possible).

What tube amplifier doesn't have an output transformer?:confused:
A power rating is there for a reason, SS or tube. The amp starts to increase THD and starts to clip. SS may clip faster with the same increase in gain but clipping is clipping.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
HEy guys,

for those that know, i am auditioning polk rti10's off an onkyo tx-sr605 running 90X7. I just got off the phone with polk tech support since there was a small smell coming from the speakers. The tech claimed that I am overpowering the speakers and cliping and distortion might occur, causing the insulation on the wires to melt. My reaction was "Huh?".

Can anyone clarify what he was saying. His recommendation was to get an amplifier to push 200 watts/ channel...

Sag
How loud were you playing those? They are 8 ohms and in room has about 93 dB sensitivity. It will be loud with 1 watts applied.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
A power rating is there for a reason, SS or tube. The amp starts to increase THD and starts to clip. SS may clip faster with the same increase in gain but clipping is clipping.
Ok, maybe not the clipping part, but durability under electrical stress beyond power rating. Transistor sees something beyond it's ability for even a second, if something isn't there to protect it, it's done. Tubes, they require you batter them to blow them.:D
 
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