"burn In"

[smulth]

Is burn in a realistic occurance or is it just a myth.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Is burn in a realistic occurance or is it just a myth.

Probably depends on what you mean by this

Bryston runs its amps for a while before delivery, or rather after final assembly to weed out early part failures

As to wires altering its characteristics, well, you would run enough current to make the wire glow white, then you might alter it some but by then the insulation is gone and you destroyed the wire

In the final analysis, it is mostly an audio myth, urban legend, voodoo.

 

[smulth]

I mean is there an improved sound after a reciever has been on for say 200 hours, Im thinking there is improvment in sound.

 

[20to20K]

Wondering myself...

I just ordered a new ATI-1502 from One Call. (Got it for $399...it's $799 list!)

Anyway, I'll get it in a couple days and it's the first "new" amp I've ever owned so I'm curious to see how it sounds at first and if it improves after
50-100 hours. This seems to be the consensus burn in time I've heard
people mention on the forums.

Interesting that Bryston burns'm in for you. There's no mention of that
in the online ATI literature I've read so I guess it's up to me!

I'll just run it all the time including while watching TV...the Superbowl
pregame alone will get me halfway there!

 

[rschleicher]

There is certainly real value in burning in electronics in order to weed out infant mortality of components, thereby improving the reliability of the product as it reaches the customer. Integrated circuits, whether digital, or analog, or mixed-signal (like DACs) exhibit a bath-tub shaped reliability profile, with a relatively higher percentage drop-out of parts during the early, infant mortality period, a low steady-state failure rate during the remaining life of the product, and then some increased failure rate at end-of-life. Different parts and technologies will have widely differing failure rates, but the bathtub-shaped curve characteristic tends to hold true. So, if an amp manufacturer runs the amp for some period of time before shipping, it will result in fewer infant mortality failures after shipping. You can also accelerate the time required for weeding out the early failures by running at elevated temperature. In fact, since it is impractical to actually run electronic parts for 10 years to verify that they are good for that long, or to verify their long-term, steady-state failure rate, the basic technique used for reliability testing is to run them at significantly elevated temperatures, as well as under the combination of high temperature and high humidity (such as 75-85 degrees Celsius, and 85-90% relative humidity. There are equations to translate hundreds or thousands of hours at elevated temperature and humidity, into years of operation at normal operating conditions.

In terms of whether the sound improves with burn-in, I am skeptical as to whether there is any difference for electronics, especially digital circuitry. But, I do buy the possible logic behind breaking in speakers, since it at least seems somewhat believable that the mechanical characteristics of speaker pistons, cones, and surrounds would change a bit with use. But why this always seems to be for the better (in reading high-end audio magazines) escapes me. It would seem to me that it would be just as likely for a speaker to get worse with use, as it is for it to get better. So, for every speaker review that talks about the speaker "really opening up" after 100 hours of use, you'd think that there would be at least a few that "really got sloppy" after 100 hours. Or perhaps it is the breaking-in of the listener that is actually occurring, as the listener gets familiar with the sound of the speaker, and starts hearing subleties that they didn't notice at first. (In other words, I am not doubting that the speaker starts to sound better after X hours of use - I'm just not sure if it is the speaker itself changing, or if it is the listener's perception that is changing.) I also can't recall ever seeing plots of speaker response done before and after 100 hours of break-in, that showed any measurable difference.

 

[sjdgpt]

Is burn in a realistic occurance or is it just a myth.

Or are you referring to a problem that happens with some display screens when a single image remains on the screen for an extended period of time?

With regard to computer displays, it was a problem with some older CRT computer screens, hence the need for screen savers, and especially so with early edition LCD screens. But improvements with computer (screen) driver technology eliminated the burn in problem associated with CRT screens many years ago, and the problem with LCD screens is being eliminated.

In TV displays, burn in was never considered a problem with CRT's as it was doubtful a single image would remain on the screen for the hours on end, and the broadcast technology usually meant the station logos etc should not present a problem. LCD TV burn in problem have been generally associated with static channel displays, such as the History Channel logo in a fixed postion on all broadcasts, or posting a single picture of your favorite adult film star on the screen while the W is out of town (if you get my drift). LCD discussions seem to indicate that the display technology is greatly improved, but burn in problems can and still happen.

 

[zipper]

If you've ever read anything about Odyssey amps, you'll get an example of "burn in" recommendations. The manufactorer gives guidelines for it & most of the owners swear by the change they've heard from out-of-the-box to 100+ hours or so.

 

[dohanc]

Burn in? I think if your worried about burning in an amp, then I how about you think about what happens once the amp is warm. All those little resistors heating up, changing resistance slightly, changing gains, changing filter frequencies!

Come to think of it, I never heard of anyone be concerned that there amp sounds better when its first turned on or after 12 hours of continuous use.

I'm even skeptical of speaker burn in because I can't imagine someone correctly noticing a speaker has changed sounds from 50 usage hours ago! Perhaps they were only using the right speaker for a month or so and then noticed the left one wasn't on so plugged it in and noticed a dramatic difference in sound between the two.

In any case, Burn in in my opinion is the users reaction to the first time of use in which is dramatically different from their current system. Over time, they get used to it, and therefore obviously the amp/speaker "burned in".

 

[mtrycrafts]

[=20to20K]I just ordered a new ATI-1502 from One Call. (Got it for $399...it's $799 list!)

Anyway, I'll get it in a couple days and it's the first "new" amp I've ever owned so I'm curious to see how it sounds at first and if it improves after
50-100 hours. This seems to be the consensus burn in time I've heard
people mention on the forums.

How will you compare the two events, brand new and after 200 hours that may take months? Memory? Don't count on that.

Interesting that Bryston burns'm in for you.

Bryston does it for reliability purposes only, nothing more.


I'll just run it all the time including while watching TV...the Superbowl
pregame alone will get me halfway there!

Waste of good, expensive electricity. The anticipated benefits are only in the land of audio imagination.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If you've ever read anything about Odyssey amps, you'll get an example of "burn in" recommendations. The manufactorer gives guidelines for it & most of the owners swear by the change they've heard from out-of-the-box to 100+ hours or so.

I wonder how those cutomers compared it between new and 100+ hours? Memory? Worthless but makes for good sales gimmick

 

[mtrycrafts]

I mean is there an improved sound after a reciever has been on for say 200 hours, Im thinking there is improvment in sound.

It is yet another audio mythology, bs, voodoo

If there was such a phenomenon, it would be measureable and of sufficient magnitude the be above threshold of detection.

 

[zipper]

I have no proof or belief either way....................

Would be interesting to hear an A/B test with a new unit & an older one to find out if what Odyssey claims is true.

 

[20to20K]

I realize it could be folklore...

Hey,

I'm not subscribing to the fact that this phenomenon exists...I'm just curious about it since sooooo many so called astute audiphiles believe they do.
Then again they can also justify $150,000 Wilson speakers with $10,000 cables so that should be my first hint!

I guess one mans snake oil is another man's Cognac!

Watchin' that Fox weather girl in the pregame is NOT a waste of electricity!

 

[GeneticDrift]

Oddly enough I just purchased an HK avr 630 to replace my HK avr 230 and one of the 1st things I noticed with all of the calibration done was the 630 had different tonal qualities, almost a shrill treble adjustment. Now a week later it is gone and sounds incredible. The treble has mellowed out to what I would consider normal.

I have no explanation as to why but it happened, may just be a fluke....

 

[ruadmaa]

Oddly enough I just purchased an HK avr 630 to replace my HK avr 230 and one of the 1st things I noticed with all of the calibration done was the 630 had different tonal qualities, almost a shrill treble adjustment. Now a week later it is gone and sounds incredible. The treble has mellowed out to what I would consider normal.

I have no explanation as to why but it happened, may just be a fluke....

More than likely your hearing has adjusted NOT the receiver.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

May I humbly suggest you check out the relevant articles on my "Audio Wisdom" page? See sig below:

 

[GeneticDrift]

More than likely your hearing has adjusted NOT the receiver.

going from a hk to an hk back to back i dont see it as being my hearing. there was a definate difference which is now gone. i am not the only one who can tell a difference. friends who were here upon hookup noticed it right after the 230 was pulled. they have not been here on a regular basis to have their ears adjust, so much for that theory......


i am not saying it burned in, i am merely saying due to some cosmic alignment my tonal qualities have changed with this new 630.

 

[rschleicher]

Rip,

Good article on burn-in (the one by Nousaine - spelling?). It echoes a lot of the thoughts I was trying to express in my earlier post (above).

(In regard to the other Audio Urban Myths article, I used to subscribe to the audio magazine that the author was ripping a bit. Sure enough, the reviewers in that magazine all seemed to be big proponents of burn-in. On the other hand, they would also include test measurements for reviewed products, and often had pretty large mismatches between the measured results and the subjective opinion, done by another person. To their credit, they seemed to usually do the subjective review prior to the test measurements, and so had to live with any resulting discrepencies.)

I also used to get a kick out of some of their tweaks that they claimed to make a difference - like using a granite slab and gel feet to isolate a digital CD transport (a transport only, mind you - the DACs were in another chassis). Shades of the green Sharpie line on the edge of CDs!

I am actually pretty open to the possibility of some very obscure things being audible - but I have to at least see that there is some kind of semi-possible cause-and-effect relationship that might explain the change.

 

[gregz]

rschleicher wrote: But, I do buy the possible logic behind breaking in speakers, since it at least seems somewhat believable that the mechanical characteristics of speaker pistons, cones, and surrounds would change a bit with use. But why this always seems to be for the better (in reading high-end audio magazines) escapes me.

rschleicher, your first response is still giving me FITs. (Judging from your post, I'll assume you get that inside joke). Anyway, good question! Many materials used in the speaker cone suspension exhibit a compliance curve over time similar to the front half of a bathtub curve which then continues to slowly drop down with useage over time. Speaker engineers hence optimize their designs to sound best over the flat part of the curve that dominates the speaker's lifespan rather than the short period of less compliance when they're brand new. This break-in can vary from minutes to hours depending upon brand and who you ask.

dohanc wrote: Burn in? I think if your worried about burning in an amp, then I how about you think about what happens once the amp is warm. All those little resistors heating up, changing resistance slightly, changing gains, changing filter frequencies!

DING DING DING DING DING!!! Even a change in ambient indoor room temperature (summer 80 degrees vs winter 70 degrees) would technically change the sound. That being said, any well designed solid state amp will show negligible changes in sound quality over both time and temperature.

A badly designed amp that does change with the slow aging of parts is junk-o-la that will quite likely exhibit other bad side effects of poor design, such as its volume getting louder as it warms up and other nasty things you just don't see in modern solid state designs.


***** Edit ********

I forgot to mention that I verified the break-in of my new NHTs by comparing them side by side against my old NHTs using the A/B speaker button on my old Stereo receiver. My wife listened to the comparison blind before and after and heard what I did without me suggesting anything. "How did you fix them?" was her question after the first week. This expansion is relevant to the question of how anyone could verify break-in occurred if it takes a week and audio memory is short. -And no, NHTs don't require a week to break in. I just listened to music and conducted the test after a week of normal useage. It could be that they were broken in within the first hour, but who cares? New out of box they gave Frank Sinatra a slight snake-like speech impediment and partially emasculated him. Poor Frank!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have no proof or belief either way....................

Would be interesting to hear an A/B test with a new unit & an older one to find out if what Odyssey claims is true.

Yes, it would be an interesting exercise in futility.
Would it really matter in the end to believers?