Build-out and question on time to upgrade processor?

[slickrockguy]

I consider myself an enthusiast, but realize I am in no way an expert. I’m hoping that the vast experience and knowledge of this board can help me with some decisions that I need to make.

I am running a Carver Digital HTP 9.1 processor. I have had this unit for several years and have really loved it. I did get it at the same time I got my speakers and I have never run them with another processor, so I can’t really speak to it doing much better than my old Onkyo, but the sound is amazing compared to anything else I have ever had. One thing I have really enjoyed is the ability to adjust speaker levels and bass on the fly so there is no need to pause a movie and navigate menus. My quandary lies primarily in this unit being pre-HDMI. It does have balanced outputs and I am running a Carver Digital HPA 5.1 Amp. Archived info on processor can be found at digitalcontentproducer.com/enewsletters/carver_digital_030706/

I am in the process of remodeling my basement to make room for a more purposefully designed home theater room—that will also not be located directly below the bedrooms anymore, which may alleviate the need to adjust bass on the fly. Total dimensions of this area is 14’x33’. I am planning to have a bar/kitchen that will give the area a separated feel starting with a pony wall and counter right behind the back row of seats at 18’ from the screen, so I am not sure if this really qualifies as a “Home Theater” a “Media Room” or something in between. The walls will also be done in QuietRock and we will be doing some sound treatments. The build-out is going to use up just about all of the available funds, hence my heart-ache on the subject.

My system:
Carver Digital HTP 9.1 Processor
Carver Digital HPA 5.1 Amp
RBH SA400 AMP
RBH SA400 AMP
Optoma HD2200 1080P DLP Projector
DaLite 106” Screen
RBH T-30LSE – Left & Right
RBH T-1/R – Center
RBH 44SE – Surround
Velodine DPS-12 - Supplemental Sub
PS3 – As a Blue Ray Player & Gaming system.
DirecTV HD DVR
AppleTV

Questions:
1. Does it make sense to get a new processor, or will running an HDMI switch to get 1080P video be sufficient? Audio would still be acquired thru optical.

2. Would it make sense to replace the Velodine with a couple in-wall RBH subs in the back/side of the room? (The guy helping me thinks the two T-30LSE’s will be sufficient and that I could pitch the old Velodine. He also mentioned that an odd number of Subs is usually a no-no.)

3. Any other input or suggestions on the project would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jostenmeat]

I consider myself an enthusiast, but realize I am in no way an expert. I’m hoping that the vast experience and knowledge of this board can help me with some decisions that I need to make.

I am running a Carver Digital HTP 9.1 processor. I have had this unit for several years and have really loved it. I did get it at the same time I got my speakers and I have never run them with another processor, so I can’t really speak to it doing much better than my old Onkyo, but the sound is amazing compared to anything else I have ever had. One thing I have really enjoyed is the ability to adjust speaker levels and bass on the fly so there is no need to pause a movie and navigate menus. My quandary lies primarily in this unit being pre-HDMI. It does have balanced outputs and I am running a Carver Digital HPA 5.1 Amp. Archived info on processor can be found at digitalcontentproducer.com/enewsletters/carver_digital_030706/

I am in the process of remodeling my basement to make room for a more purposefully designed home theater room—that will also not be located directly below the bedrooms anymore, which may alleviate the need to adjust bass on the fly. Total dimensions of this area is 14’x33’. I am planning to have a bar/kitchen that will give the area a separated feel starting with a pony wall and counter right behind the back row of seats at 18’ from the screen, so I am not sure if this really qualifies as a “Home Theater” a “Media Room” or something in between. The walls will also be done in QuietRock and we will be doing some sound treatments. The build-out is going to use up just about all of the available funds, hence my heart-ache on the subject.

My system:
Carver Digital HTP 9.1 Processor
Carver Digital HPA 5.1 Amp
RBH SA400 AMP
RBH SA400 AMP
Optoma HD2200 1080P DLP Projector
DaLite 106” Screen
RBH T-30LSE – Left & Right
RBH T-1/R – Center
RBH 44SE – Surround
Velodine DPS-12 - Supplemental Sub
PS3 – As a Blue Ray Player & Gaming system.
DirecTV HD DVR
AppleTV

Questions:
1. Does it make sense to get a new processor, or will running an HDMI switch to get 1080P video be sufficient? Audio would still be acquired thru optical.

2. Would it make sense to replace the Velodine with a couple in-wall RBH subs in the back/side of the room? (The guy helping me thinks the two T-30LSE’s will be sufficient and that I could pitch the old Velodine. He also mentioned that an odd number of Subs is usually a no-no.)

3. Any other input or suggestions on the project would be greatly appreciated.

1. The reasons for a new prepro would be a) new features you desire (I personally put Audyssey tech as my #1 priority) and b) possible access to lossless codecs with bluray, and/or the ability to apply bass mgmt and postprocessing easily to these codecs.

I think it is not a stretch to say that the quality of the source material is the greatest factor.

2. I am not familiar with the RBH, but um well some people like bass, some people love bass, and some people are insane. If you have a decent sum to blow on bass, you will go furthest with DIY. If you want insane output for a sane sum, you can look at the Danley DTS10 for a bit over 1k (but 5' long and +280lbs heavy, with a very very high efficiency). You can even use one or two of them as a riser. There are so many ID options too.

I do not believe that an odd number of subs is unideal, but that for the best evening of room modes, it is simply that more is better (with diminishing returns ad infinitum). The difficulty is the setup/cal of it all.

3. Good on you for going lengthwise, but the starting point for reducing axial modal issues is 38% room length, doesn't matter from front or back.


Honestly, I would sit tight, and learn as much as you can, as my instinct. Never having heard your speakers, I would lean towards a new PJ or false wall with DIY Seymour screen. Oh PS3 doesn't have analog outs, so hm. Ok that's a toughie. The materials to build a false wall and screen with Seymour for a 106", my guess is $300ish for everything. You can hide your front three speakers behind the false wall, along with any subs too. You can have your center speaker smack dab directly behind the screen, as close as 1" away (you need it further with microperf; this is a microweave). George Lucas uses this screen material in his home, and yep, it's the only material of its kind that is offered as DIY material.

 

[slickrockguy]

Thank you for the reply and info.

Due to a strange placement of a load baring wall I will have a "real" wall for the screen, but a six foot dead space behind that will serve nicely for the sizable speakers--over 5' tall. We went with the DaLite because we could place the center speaker behind it. I'm glad we got at least something right.

" Good on you for going lengthwise, but the starting point for reducing axial modal issues is 38% room length, doesn't matter from front or back"

I've tried to research what to do with that bit of information, but must admit I'm not having any luck figuring it out. Any guidance?

The projector is on order. From your comment, I'm guessing I didn't pick one of your favorites. I'm transitioning from rear projection with this project. I have been told by a couple people that projectors have come so far in the last few years that I would be foolish to drop big bucks on a projector at this time. Was I misinformed?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am running a Carver Digital HTP 9.1 processor...the sound is amazing compared to anything else I have ever had...

1. Does it make sense to get a new processor, or will running an HDMI switch to get 1080P video be sufficient? Audio would still be acquired thru optical.

2. Would it make sense to replace the Velodine with a couple in-wall RBH subs in the back/side of the room? (The guy helping me thinks the two T-30LSE’s will be sufficient and that I could pitch the old Velodine. He also mentioned that an odd number of Subs is usually a no-no.)

I don't believe in Audyssey at all, and I think most features are just bells and whistles, except for the convinience of HDMI.

I think getting a nice pre-pro from Marantz, Integra, Anthem, Denon would all be good options.

1) But I think I would just keep the Carver pre-pro/amp and get a HDMI switcher.

Things like DTS-HD MA & Dolby TrueHD are also cool, but most folks can't tell the difference.

I've auditioned the RBH T2/P, and I thought the bass was absolutely phenominal. Those 2 RBH 1010 subs, which are part of the T2 & T30 speakers, are amazingly tight and powerful. I don't think I could handle any more bass than that. Actually, the T30 speakers have the RBH 1010 Reference subs, which are even better than the regular 1010.

Interestingly, when the dealer added 2 more RBH 1010 subs, turning the system into a T3/P, I really couldn't tell much difference because the bass was already truly incredible.

2) So I don't think you will even need the Velodyne sub. Just the 1010-subs in your T-30 is already fantatic.

 

[AVRat]

Due to a strange placement of a load baring wall I will have a "real" wall for the screen, but a six foot dead space behind that will serve nicely for the sizable speakers--over 5' tall. We went with the DaLite because we could place the center speaker behind it. I'm glad we got at least something right.

It sounds like this is akin to the “false wall” that JM mentioned. Is this essentially a framed wall that you’ll be covering with an acoustically transparent (AT) fabric? Is the 6’ included in the 33’ length? For two rows of seating, the 2nd row viewing distance should be no further than 2 x Screen Width.

" Good on you for going lengthwise, but the starting point for reducing axial modal issues is 38% room length, doesn't matter from front or back"

I've tried to research what to do with that bit of information, but must admit I'm not having any luck figuring it out. Any guidance?

Essentially, the room length audio sweet spot is in the neighborhood of a distance from front or rear wall equivalent to about 33-38% of the entire open room length. Ex. 33’ x 38% = 12.5’. With multi-row seating, compromises need to be made but try and stay away from mid-room locations.

The projector is on order. From your comment, I'm guessing I didn't pick one of your favorites. I'm transitioning from rear projection with this project. I have been told by a couple people that projectors have come so far in the last few years that I would be foolish to drop big bucks on a projector at this time. Was I misinformed?

That really depends on how critical you are about the video quality. You definitely have an AWESOME sound system, which I think may be sufficiently Subbed. Some of the better performing PJs come from JVC, Epson, Panasonic, Mitsubishi. 3-D has been a bit of a buzz since Avatar and manufacturers are still tweaking the tech for buggy issues if you’re interested, but is only available in upper level models. The Optoma may be a decent starting point for dipping your toe into the waters. For the money I might have gone with the Epson 8350 instead.

You would need HDMI 1.4 compatability for 3-D but that’s about it. An HDMI switch would probably work for your needs now and look to upgrade the processor when more funds become available.

A room layout that might help a little, I'm looking for another also: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16714447&postcount=102

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11154045&postcount=77

 

[jostenmeat]

Thank you for the reply and info.

Due to a strange placement of a load baring wall I will have a "real" wall for the screen, but a six foot dead space behind that will serve nicely for the sizable speakers--over 5' tall. We went with the DaLite because we could place the center speaker behind it. I'm glad we got at least something right.

Oh it's AT? It must be a perforated version of . . . which screen material did you choose?

The projector is on order. From your comment, I'm guessing I didn't pick one of your favorites. I'm transitioning from rear projection with this project. I have been told by a couple people that projectors have come so far in the last few years that I would be foolish to drop big bucks on a projector at this time. Was I misinformed?

Eh? The big jump already happened about 4 years ago, as far as I know, when JVC released its very first PJ in their "reference" line. I own that 2007 model; the RS1 that I landed (granted for a steal *at the time* at 3k) was said by Art Feierman to be the hands-down best PJ he's ever seen at under $10k. Well, JVC has released many more models, spanning at least another few generations since then, and while each is a bit better than the one before (with the RS20 possibly being the best value; first with onboard CMS), it was not the last few years that were the big jump- the big jump happened well beforehand!


OK, so your PJ has zero lens shift? And only 3.5" offset?

It is just a little bit of an improvement over the older and entry level HD20, but for a 50% increase in premium?


Anyways, the main reason in my book to go single chip DLP is for brightness, and if you were using RP before (this is why you had 6 ft?) I suspect some lack of light control with light colored boundaries and/or introduction of ambient light.

It is a bit curious to me why someone would drop RP for FP. Maybe it's because to do RP super nicely would cost so much? Like the Starglas 60 that BMXTRIX told me about some long time ago . . .

 

[slickrockguy]

I don't believe in Audyssey at all, and I think most features are just bells and whistles, except for the convinience of HDMI.

I think getting a nice pre-pro from Marantz, Integra, Anthem, Denon would all be good options.

1) But I think I would just keep the Carver pre-pro/amp and get a HDMI switcher.

Things like DTS-HD MA & Dolby TrueHD are also cool, but most folks can't tell the difference.

I've auditioned the RBH T2/P, and I thought the bass was absolutely phenominal. Those 2 RBH 1010 subs, which are part of the T2 & T30 speakers, are amazingly tight and powerful. I don't think I could handle any more bass than that. Actually, the T30 speakers have the RBH 1010 Reference subs, which are even better than the regular 1010.

Interestingly, when the dealer added 2 more RBH 1010 subs, turning the system into a T3/P, I really couldn't tell much difference because the bass was already truly incredible.

2) So I don't think you will even need the Velodyne sub. Just the 1010-subs in your T-30 is already fantatic.

Thank you for the input!

The room where everything has been set up the last few years is terrible for acoustics. My wife hates it because I shake the whole house when I crank up a movie or some rock music. I hate it that I can't watch a good action movie after the kids have gone to bed. I am just a little afraid that I'll get everything put together and it won't sound right, or I'll really wish I had done something different. I know the sound treatments, bass traps etc will make a big difference, and these speakers really should be enough, especially with the amount of power I am pushing to them. (200w to each top--basically the T1 portion--from the carver and 400w to each bottom from the RBH SA400 rack separates)

It just makes sense to get the proper treatments and take full advantage of the T-30's. I just need to keep telling myself that...

 

[slickrockguy]

Oh it's AT? It must be a perforated version of . . . which screen material did you choose?



Eh? The big jump already happened about 4 years ago, as far as I know, when JVC released its very first PJ in their "reference" line. I own that 2007 model; the RS1 that I landed (granted for a steal *at the time* at 3k) was said by Art Feierman to be the hands-down best PJ he's ever seen at under $10k. Well, JVC has released many more models, spanning at least another few generations since then, and while each is a bit better than the one before (with the RS20 possibly being the best value; first with onboard CMS), it was not the last few years that were the big jump- the big jump happened well beforehand!


OK, so your PJ has zero lens shift? And only 3.5" offset?

It is just a little bit of an improvement over the older and entry level HD20, but for a 50% increase in premium?


Anyways, the main reason in my book to go single chip DLP is for brightness, and if you were using RP before (this is why you had 6 ft?) I suspect some lack of light control with light colored boundaries and/or introduction of ambient light.

It is a bit curious to me why someone would drop RP for FP. Maybe it's because to do RP super nicely would cost so much? Like the Starglas 60 that BMXTRIX told me about some long time ago . . .

The screen is Acoustically Transparent. As far as fabric "Cinema Contour wіth High Contrast Audio Vision fabric..." I don't know if that is marketing BS or an actual material since DaLite seems to be the only company using it but its all I could find on the fabric.

I really appreciate the insight everyone has given me, I think any extra money I can come up with may go into upgrading the PJ. It sounds like that is going to be the real week spot of the system.

On RP v. FP, I believe I may have misspoke (miss-typed?) I am moving from a 55" big screen TV. I thought they were referred to as RP. The six feet behind the new set up is just a coincidence. My "theater" is currently on the other side of the house (Under the bedrooms ) I would love to go with a real RP system if I could afford it.

 

[slickrockguy]

Post #5 so I can post a picture. Sorry for the clutter.

 

[slickrockguy]

It sounds like this is akin to the “false wall” that JM mentioned. Is this essentially a framed wall that you’ll be covering with an acoustically transparent (AT) fabric? Is the 6’ included in the 33’ length? For two rows of seating, the 2nd row viewing distance should be no further than 2 x Screen Width.

Essentially, the room length audio sweet spot is in the neighborhood of a distance from front or rear wall equivalent to about 33-38% of the entire open room length. Ex. 33’ x 38% = 12.5’. With multi-row seating, compromises need to be made but try and stay away from mid-room locations.

That really depends on how critical you are about the video quality. You definitely have an AWESOME sound system, which I think may be sufficiently Subbed. Some of the better performing PJs come from JVC, Epson, Panasonic, Mitsubishi. 3-D has been a bit of a buzz since Avatar and manufacturers are still tweaking the tech for buggy issues if you’re interested, but is only available in upper level models. The Optoma may be a decent starting point for dipping your toe into the waters. For the money I might have gone with the Epson 8350 instead.

You would need HDMI 1.4 compatability for 3-D but that’s about it. An HDMI switch would probably work for your needs now and look to upgrade the processor when more funds become available.

A room layout that might help a little, I'm looking for another also: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16714447&postcount=102

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11154045&postcount=77

The first room is very similar to mine, but on a larger scale. Here is my current idea of a layout.

Image doesn't seem to work, here is a link.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/62669920@N03/5706088176/

A few notes on the layout:
1. The counter was possition where it is because there is ductwork and now a large beam to support the weight barring wall that was removed. It seemed logical to put the counter below this.
2. The six feet I mentioned before as space behind the screen is not included in the room dimensions I gave earlier.
3. I know the curtain will not serve as a serious sound treatment, but I wanted something movable that will cut down on the amount of "Chatter" coming from the ladies more interested in gossip on bar side during the big game...
4. Seating is given as a place holder only. I am debating between theater style seating or a large wrap around sectional. When I will use it for movies, there will be max 4 people watching. But for Football, there could be 10-15. A sectional seems more social, but would still allow for a serious home row for a captains chair. However, from what I am gathering the position of the back row in this room may not be ideal for the capains chairs?

Forgive the crudeness of the drawings. As I am a numbers geek I know excel and so that is how I created the drawings.

Thanks again for the input guys!

 

[slickrockguy]

After reading thru the thread on that first build, I must admit that my room is not even close to being on the level with what that guy is doing. Wow, he has spared no expense and has done an amazing job. (I am also not willing to let this drag out for two and a half years) The example of the IB sub if I ever want more base is excellent.

If I can figure out how to make the pictures I insert into my posts actually show up, I will post some actual pic's of the room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My wife hates it because I shake the whole house when I crank up a movie or some rock music. I hate it that I can't watch a good action movie after the kids have gone to bed...

I feel your pain. I'm right there with you.

My wife made me turn off my subwoofer when we watch movies together because it shakes the house.

And I have to turn the volume down to -40dB on the processor @ night time.

What does that tell you?

You don't need 3 subwoofers; just 2 subwoofers (in the T-30 speakers) are all you need.

I know the sound treatments, bass traps etc will make a big difference...

I think some rooms benefit more than others from room treatments and bass traps.

I tried adding 4 large bass traps (ATS Acoustics 4"x24"x48") and they did NOTHING for my room. They did NOT prevent the subwoofers from shaking the house or prevent 90dBA soundwaves from traveling through the walls. They did not improve my sound. Not every room and every situation calls for room treatments and bass traps.

Now if I build a new house, I would reinforce the heck out of the walls and make the HT room as SOUND-PROOF as possible. I would also keep the HT room as far away from all the bedrooms as possible

Some experts believe in room treatments for ALL rooms, while some experts (like The Audio Critic's Peter Azcel, Seigfried Linkwitz) believe that your normal curtains, drapes, sofas, carpets, etc. are just fine for most rooms.

I also believe your speakers play a role in how important room treatments are too. I don't think your T-30 speakers need room treatment unless your new room is just horrible. I assume you will have carpet, furniture, drapes/curtains, etc.

 

[AVRat]

For posting pics from Flickr, grab the HTML Code and use the image tag here.

The room layout looks pretty good. The front row is close to the sweet spot audio wise and will also provide a very immersive 46 degree viewing angle with the 106” dia. screen. The back row is also pretty good distance and audio wise. http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

For the best image quality and picture contrast, you’ll want decently dark, non-reflective wall surfaces and good light control. http://www.avintegrated.com/lighting.html

For more social gatherings where some ambient light is preferred, the Da-Lite High Contrast Audio Vision fabric combined with a good light output projector isn’t a bad choice.

 

[jostenmeat]

The screen is Acoustically Transparent. As far as fabric "Cinema Contour wіth High Contrast Audio Vision fabric..." I don't know if that is marketing BS or an actual material since DaLite seems to be the only company using it but its all I could find on the fabric.

I believe the Cinema Contour part is the actual frame, wait, I think you knew that. I am unfamiliar with the HCAV.

I really appreciate the insight everyone has given me, I think any extra money I can come up with may go into upgrading the PJ. It sounds like that is going to be the real week spot of the system.

See, this is why I was saying that I think you ought to learn as much as you can, and just in general being patient. You're an interested enthusiast that knows he can learn a lot from forums, and have taken the first step in starting to do so . . .

So, yes, I gave you my thought that if it was me, I'd hit the PJ first, but see, we really don't know about available budgets, nor priorities. Some people like building the hugest speakers and/or subwoofers to complement a little CRT display, for instance. Or, I've seen very nice screens combined with a good PJ, where the audio was supported by HTIB speakers. You see what I mean?

On RP v. FP, I believe I may have misspoke (miss-typed?) I am moving from a 55" big screen TV. I thought they were referred to as RP. The six feet behind the new set up is just a coincidence. My "theater" is currently on the other side of the house (Under the bedrooms ) I would love to go with a real RP system if I could afford it.

Oh ok. Yes, I call those RPTVs. RP is having the projector on the other side, firing towards *you*.

Do you know what the recommended minimum distance is between the speakers and screen? Probably over 12"? (to avoid excessive comb filtering?)

 

[jostenmeat]

The room where everything has been set up the last few years is terrible for acoustics. My wife hates it because I shake the whole house when I crank up a movie or some rock music. I hate it that I can't watch a good action movie after the kids have gone to bed. I am just a little afraid that I'll get everything put together and it won't sound right, or I'll really wish I had done something different. I know the sound treatments, bass traps etc will make a big difference, and these speakers really should be enough, especially with the amount of power I am pushing to them. (200w to each top--basically the T1 portion--from the carver and 400w to each bottom from the RBH SA400 rack separates)

The treating of the interior acoustic space really has a completely different goal than "isolation". Bass traps, acoustic panels, they are for things like reducing modal issues, destructive (strong and/or early) reflections, things like that. Isolation is to keep sound from going out. The bang for buck method is staggered studs, filled with insulation, double dry wall, with green glue in between them.

PM this guy. He is usually at AVS, and not here, but hopefully he can help out because he is a true expert with this stuff. He can tell you even where to place your beams, doorways even, in terms of reducing the transmission of acoustic energy.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/member.php?u=6214

I'd also PM this guy too. Ask both to join your thread perhaps. While he represents an acoustic treatment co, he knows a lot about isolation too.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/member.php?u=8007

4. Seating is given as a place holder only. I am debating between theater style seating or a large wrap around sectional. When I will use it for movies, there will be max 4 people watching. But for Football, there could be 10-15. A sectional seems more social, but would still allow for a serious home row for a captains chair. However, from what I am gathering the position of the back row in this room may not be ideal for the capains chairs?

Is this 50/50? HT seating is the favorite thing for many viewers, not just in my HT, but in others' HTs as well. The dual cupholders are a nice bonus too. Extremely comfortable, way more comfortable than most sectionals, IMO. Tough decision though, gl there.

I recommend getting an OTA tuner, because HD OTA is free, there is no TV signal that is superior, and NFL games are always on national networks (isn't that right, or do I have that wrong?).

Plug your address in here to see what you can pull in. You just need a $30 antenna from Target/RatShack/BB/etc, but you also need a tuner. $100? (then again you might have a tuner in some old vcr or something.) However, if you use cable, I might throw that $100 towards something like the top end Tivo, where you can stream everything, have a good functioning DVR, programmable remotely, etc. You no longer pay the cable co for the box rental (which means you have the potential to get this for "free"), but you do need to pay for cable card.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

 

[slickrockguy]

Pictures

I'm going to try the pictues again...

Current Setup:

The Theater Room as it is at this moment (and for the last two weeks):

Front of the Theater:

Back area or "Pub" Area:

The current designs:

 

[AVRat]

Another tool for you: http://www.theater-calc.com/

A projector mounting position just in front of the cross-beam will work nicely. If you're seriously reconsidering the projector, I'd hold off on purchase until closer to project completion if possible.

 

[slickrockguy]

I really appreciate the great links to the sites that you guys use and trust.
This latest link, very simple yet lets me know that the riser needs to be larger than I had originally planned on. That is nice to know before hand...

Your input and links have helped me in to re-evaluating and tweek a few things so that I ultimately feel comfortable with this space.

I hope to update you guys in the next couple days with the changes I have made so far. Any additional input is always welcome.

Thanks again.