Budget Phono Preamps - how good are they?

[zew]

I currently have a Denon DP-300F turntable. I'm considering upgrading to an Audio Technica AT-LP5 (if I can find one in stock). Both have built-in preamps that can disabled. Cartridge is Ortofon 2M Red.

My amp does not have a phono-in. My question is - would the budget range of phono preamps (i.e. Schiit Mani, ART DJ Pre II) make for a significant upgrade to the built-in preamps of these turntables? Or would I have to jump up to more $$ to notice an improvement?

 

[Mikado463]

I can't speak to the built in phono sections of the TT's you list but I can vouch for the Schiit Mani. My Bro-inlaw has it paired with a Rega 3 and it performs quite nicely !

 

[M Code]

A built-in phono preamp within a turntable will likely not perform as good as an external, audiophile level phono preamp... But before making that call I would recommend 1st U do a listening test with the built-in preamp and evaluate How does it sound? Then decide if an upgrade is required..

Just my $0.02...

 

[3db]

A built-in phono preamp within a turntable will likely not perform as good as an external, audiophile level phono preamp... But before making that call I would recommend 1st U do a listening test with the built-in preamp and evaluate How does it sound? Then decide if an upgrade is required..

Just my $0.02...

The phono stages on my Yamaha AVRs sound very good to my ears. Im trying to understand how external phono stages would sound better. Its not like phono stages are new. They've been around for at least 50 years now.

 

[zew]

Yeah I mean, I understand phono preamps range in price from like $40 to thousands of dollars... I trust there is a big difference between the two... what I'm not so clear on is just where the "budget" range sits in comparison to the phono stages that are built-in to these turntables..

I've read conflicting opinions. In regards to the Technics SL-1500c turntable ($1200) that has a built-in phono stage, one review says "It’s not the worst built-in phono preamp I’ve heard, but it’s definitely nowhere near as good as just about any stand-alone phono pre, including my very inexpensive Schiit Mani ($129)". Pretty clear cut. But the WhatHiFi review of this tt says "the built-in phono stage is really good. That doesn’t tend to be the case normally, and means that you don’t have to spend extra on a dedicated outboard unit to get the best from the record player."

I love simple solutions, and would love fewer wires and gadgets whenever possible, so the tables with built-in phono stages appeal to me... but I wonder how much (if at all) I'd be missing out on a better sound!

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah I mean, I understand phono preamps range in price from like $40 to thousands of dollars... I trust there is a big difference between the two... what I'm not so clear on is just where the "budget" range sits in comparison to the phono stages that are built-in to these turntables..

I've read conflicting opinions. In regards to the Technics SL-1500c turntable ($1200) that has a built-in phono stage, one review says "It’s not the worst built-in phono preamp I’ve heard, but it’s definitely nowhere near as good as just about any stand-alone phono pre, including my very inexpensive Schiit Mani ($129)". Pretty clear cut. But the WhatHiFi review of this tt says "the built-in phono stage is really good. That doesn’t tend to be the case normally, and means that you don’t have to spend extra on a dedicated outboard unit to get the best from the record player."

I love simple solutions, and would love fewer wires and gadgets whenever possible, so the tables with built-in phono stages appeal to me... but I wonder how much (if at all) I'd be missing out on a better sound!

Reviews are only opinions of that person essentially....and you do have conflicting opinions. I've used an ART stage as well as the various built in stages on various 2ch gear as well as avrs, they all worked just fine. I'd try the built in model before changing it out, tho. Personally I wouldn't bother with the vinyl at all unless you have a good sized collection to put to use....

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah I mean, I understand phono preamps range in price from like $40 to thousands of dollars... I trust there is a big difference between the two... what I'm not so clear on is just where the "budget" range sits in comparison to the phono stages that are built-in to these turntables..

I've read conflicting opinions. In regards to the Technics SL-1500c turntable ($1200) that has a built-in phono stage, one review says "It’s not the worst built-in phono preamp I’ve heard, but it’s definitely nowhere near as good as just about any stand-alone phono pre, including my very inexpensive Schiit Mani ($129)". Pretty clear cut. But the WhatHiFi review of this tt says "the built-in phono stage is really good. That doesn’t tend to be the case normally, and means that you don’t have to spend extra on a dedicated outboard unit to get the best from the record player."

I love simple solutions, and would love fewer wires and gadgets whenever possible, so the tables with built-in phono stages appeal to me... but I wonder how much (if at all) I'd be missing out on a better sound!

A phono preamp is a very simple circuit and should not be expensive. I suspect that the built in preamp in your turntable is just fine. Since it is close to the cartridge, it likely will have the best signal to noise ratio. Very high priced phono preamps are in the same league as high priced cables. In other words, Audiophoolery is involved.

 

[3db]

A phono preamp is a very simple circuit and should not be expensive. I suspect that the built in preamp in your turntable is just fine. Since it is close to the cartridge, it likely will have the best signal to noise ratio. Very high priced phono preamps are in the same league as high priced cables. In other words, Audiophoolery is involved.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[M Code]

I do agree that for phono preamplifiers as the price escalates...
One can enter the hocus/pocus area of the golden ears @ a certain higher price level...
However to build a good sounding phono preamplifier is a technical challenge...
Since factors including cable interconnects, cartridge impedance/loading, noise floor specs and tolerance for the RIAA EQ tracking needs to be considered...
I have a wide assortment of cartridges both MM and MC, plus various phono preamplifiers and step-up devices for MC cartridges.. And YES a small change can make a very audible difference... Suffice to say, do your homework carefully and be sure to do some close listening tests before deciding what components to use..

Just my $0.02...

 

[OttawaCityMadman]

Hello. I have some similar questions, but Im going to ask mainly about what specs are worth noting for Phono Preamps.

I have a Fluance rt85 and currently plugged into the phono in on a Yamaha rx v2500. I am getting great clear detailed sound, but it seems quiet, or lacking power. So I am feeling a better Phono Preamp will be helpful here. Fluance has their own preamp, for about $130, so I send Fluance a message relating the specs of the rxv2500's Phono stage, and they told me their preamp was pretty even with the avr's stage. So my question is, What specs sound I be looking at when I go to buy a more expensive preamp?

For reference, here are the rxv2500 phono specs I was referring to:

Signal to Noise Ratio (IHF-A Network) PHONO (5 mV) to Front L/R [Other models], 86 dB
Channel Separation (1 kHz/10 kHz) PHONO (terminated) to Front L/R , 60 dB/55 dB
• Input Sensitivity/Input Impedance PHONO, 3.5 mV/47 kΩ
• Total Harmonic Distortion PHONO to REC OUT (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 1 V), 0.02%

What is most important and is any of that totally unnecessary to be looking at? Thanks!

 

[3db]

I do agree that for phono preamplifiers as the price escalates...
One can enter the hocus/pocus area of the golden ears @ a certain higher price level...
However to build a good sounding phono preamplifier is a technical challenge...
Since factors including cable interconnects, cartridge impedance/loading, noise floor specs and tolerance for the RIAA EQ tracking needs to be considered...
I have a wide assortment of cartridges both MM and MC, plus various phono preamplifiers and step-up devices for MC cartridges.. And YES a small change can make a very audible difference... Suffice to say, do your homework carefully and be sure to do some close listening tests before deciding what components to use..

Just my $0.02...

What's your opinion of the phono stages built into AVRs?

 

[Mikado463]

What's your opinion of the phono stages built into AVRs?

Know you asked mcode but my answer is this, it depends. If the flexibility and adj(loading , gain, etc) match up well with the cartridge being used it can be just fine.

 

[M Code]

What's your opinion of the phono stages built into AVRs?

I would rank their performance as good value/performance but below that of an esoteric preamplifier or component phono preamplifier or step-up device....
For example, Yamaha in their receivers typically use a pair of OP amplifier ICs
(NJM2068) are of low-noise, this circuit works very well and satisfies most listeners using a quality M/M cartridge. However the real challenge is the better M/M cartridges have lower output voltage and when the volume level is raised typically the noise floor comes up. And for most systems the volume level through phono input is significantly less than a high level source.
But note in order to get the highest sonic performance from vinyl requires quality vinyl releases but I have a large collection of audiophile disks and test pressings. And these disks typically are pressed from virgin vinyl that have a lower noise floor. As I mentioned previously, I have a wide range of cartridges but prefer the M/C cartridges using their external set-up device. But then my $ investment in just the phono source side; turntable, tone-arm, cartridge, step-up device basically exceeds the $ cost of most receivers. On my stereo music system, I greatly enjoy playing some of my vinyl disks, and will say they sound very good, with great dynamics and imaging to my aging ears....

Just my $0.02...

 

[sterling shoote]

Here's what I know about it all: I purchased a Schitt Mani about 3 months ago, accepting the reviews about it were somewhat truthful, which suggested the unit was above par. At any rate, I connected the Mani to a Sony PS-4750 fitted with a Shure V15V-MR. The synergy of this system is a tone absolutely indistinguishable in all manner from stereo SACDs of same labeled music. And, at the listening level I prefer, about 60db, dead wax is black as coal.

This makes me believe the Mani is getting the job done and thus spending more for a "high end" phono preamp it seems is not going to be necessary for me to be satisfied. I know everyone here is very happy for me

 

[pcosmic]

Diminishing returns are uugggeee with phono pres....It is a very simple lousy li'l circuit and all these snake oil peddlers will tell you its something real special when they put it in a shiny li'l box. Do yourself a favor, get a cheap phono pre and spend more on a good cartridge. The Shiit Mani will be more than fcking enough.....

 

[TLS Guy]

The issue is simple and not.

The issues.

Matching the cartridge output to line voltage. This should be simple, but there is significant variation in cartridge outputs. The most extreme is MM Versus MC. Getting this right is essential for optimizing S/N ratio. This means it has to be able to be adjusted. Too little gain and you will have poor S/N. Too much and you will have clipping.

The input impedance has to be correct. For MM cartridges this is standard at 47K ohm. So that should not be a problem. Optimal impedance for MC cartridges is 100 ohms.

Correcting the RIAA curve. The amp needs to be designed to have a response the exact inverse of the RIAA recording curve. This means the time constants of the Eq circuits has to be correct. These are not complicated circuits and should not present a problem.

Now we come to the thorny issue, were variability can be a problem. Most cartridge manufacturers specify the optimal loading capacity. There is wide variation.
The next problem is that there is significant variability of the capacitance of the turntable interconnecting leads. They are not often specified.
The input capacitance of phono amps vary. So the chance of getting this all optimal in any given combination of equipment is very remote indeed.
It is this issue that causes the variability.

So what is my approach. Well I use low capacitance leads. (The SME) approach. Now I find out the capacitance of the phone amp. Now I add sufficient capacitance inside the RCA plugs, so that the loading capacitance for the cartridge is correct.

One of my turntable preamps is a Quad 44. Peter Walker got this one right. There are dip switches to optimize the gain structure and capacitance for any cartridge imaginable.

It really comes down to getting these two variables correct, especially input capacitance. Leaving it to chance inevitably leads to variable results and arguments about which phono preamp is better. When the approach should be: - How do I optimize X phono cartridge to Y phono input? That is the essence, and what I have just told you really does matter to optimize LP production.

 

[sterling shoote]

The issue is simple and not.

The issues.

Matching the cartridge output to line voltage. This should be simple, but there is significant variation in cartridge outputs. The most extreme is MM Versus MC. Getting this right is essential for optimizing S/N ratio. This means it has to be able to be adjusted. Too little gain and you will have poor S/N. Too much and you will have clipping.

The input impedance has to be correct. For MM cartridges this is standard at 47K ohm. So that should not be a problem. Optimal impedance for MC cartridges is 100 ohms.

Correcting the RIAA curve. The amp needs to be designed to have a response the exact inverse of the RIAA recording curve. This means the time constants of the Eq circuits has to be correct. These are not complicated circuits and should not present a problem.

Now we come to the thorny issue, were variability can be a problem. Most cartridge manufacturers specify the optimal loading capacity. There is wide variation.
The next problem is that there is significant variability of the capacitance of the turntable interconnecting leads. They are not often specified.
The input capacitance of phono amps vary. So the chance of getting this all optimal in any given combination of equipment is very remote indeed.
It is this issue that causes the variability.

So what is my approach. Well I use low capacitance leads. (The SME) approach. Now I find out the capacitance of the phone amp. Now I add sufficient capacitance inside the RCA plugs, so that the loading capacitance for the cartridge is correct.

One of my turntable preamps is a Quad 44. Peter Walker got this one right. There are dip switches to optimize the gain structure and capacitance for any cartridge imaginable.

It really comes down to getting these two variables correct, especially input capacitance. Leaving it to chance inevitably leads to variable results and arguments about which phono preamp is better. When the approach should be: - How do I optimize X phono cartridge to Y phono input? That is the essence, and what I have just told you really does matter to optimize LP production.

The issue was simple back in the 70’s when manufacturers of carts and phono preampfification had some fidelity to a standard. Today, it may not even be possible to match any cart out there these days with a phono preamp having limited adjustment range/settings. Seems my Shure V15V-MR is working out well with Mani as well as the phono preamp in my newly acquired Parasound P6.

 

[highfigh]

The issue was simple back in the 70’s when manufacturers of carts and phono preampfification had some fidelity to a standard. Today, it may not even be possible to match any cart out there these days with a phono preamp having limited adjustment range/settings. Seems my Shure V15V-MR is working out well with Mani as well as the phono preamp in my newly acquired Parasound P6.

Back in the days before the manufacturers deleted the phono preamp and people were all in on CDs, etc, not a lot of attention was given to the phono stage unless they had a cartridge that needed special care & feeding (or, you talked to someone at a high-end audio store and in that case, anything they didn't sell was crap). At that time, it was hard to find a phono section that wasn't decent even in mid-priced equipment and most MC preamps were able to provide enough gain unless it was a special case, like the Denon 103d, which is what I still use. The output is ridiculously low and some preamps don't provide enough gain to allow using it and returning to a different source without being blown out of the room. If you decide to buy an MC cart and use it with your P6, you're welcome- I spoke with Richard Schramm about the gain in the P5 being lower than the Sony integrated amps I had and have, so they seem to have had enough requests to add another 10dB.

In the old days, nobody cared if their phono preamp was special and that's the way we liked it!

Get off my lawn!

 

[TLS Guy]

The issue was simple back in the 70’s when manufacturers of carts and phono preampfification had some fidelity to a standard. Today, it may not even be possible to match any cart out there these days with a phono preamp having limited adjustment range/settings. Seems my Shure V15V-MR is working out well with Mani as well as the phono preamp in my newly acquired Parasound P6.

I don't think it ever was a simple as people maintained. Even in the 60s Peter Walker had a range of cans to plug into the back of his Quad 22 tube preamps for different cartridges. SME had a range of advice for the optimization I'm talking about. In my view Quad were the only people that really nailed this. If you really do want to tweak performance some DIY is required in most cases.

The thing is that few turntable systems are really good enough to warrant the trouble, as there are worse issues not resolved.

 

[highfigh]

I don't think it ever was a simple as people maintained. Even in the 60s Peter Walker had a range of cans to plug into the back of his Quad 22 tube preamps for different cartridges. SME had a range of advice for the optimization I'm talking about. In my view Quad were the only people that really nailed this. If you really do want to tweak performance some DIY is required in most cases.

The thing is that few turntable systems are really good enough to warrant the trouble, as there are worse issues not resolved.

None of what Quad and some of the other brands did was mainstream consumer goods- people used to listen to the music, not the equipment. I'm not saying we need to give up trying to make it sound better, but the crap that has come out in the last 40 years is ridiculous and the practice of trying to change the world with a power cord or cable stand really needs to stop.