Budget amp that will give Magnepan 3.6Rs better depth of soundstage

C

cdavis2260

Audiophyte
I don't know if this posing should be in amps or loudspeakers. Let me know if posted incorrectly.
I have 3.6Rs and using Emotiva UMC200 pre/proc and an Outlaw Audio 7100 in a 14 by 14 foot room. So I don't need to turn the volume up to massive levels. The amp will do 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 165 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I have been thinking of getting a separate two channel amp for the 3.6Rs. I have read that it takes lots of current to get the best soundstage with instrument placement and depth. I am getting wide soundstage and good sound, but the depth is somewhat muddied enough to not get instrument placement. I am looking for a two channel amp that will give me more of the potential of the 3.6Rs, but be able to be purchased for less that $750 used. Is there any amp that will be worth upgrading to for that kind of money or do I need a new pre/proc as well?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The room, speakers and speaker setup create the depth- improve that and I think you'll find that most amps work very well for those speakers.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
The room, speakers and speaker setup create the depth-
agreed, but given the OP's square room(never good) other challenges surface.


I think you'll find that most amps work very well for those speakers.
I love Maggies, owned IIIa's back in the day and will attest to their love of power and current capable amps.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Amplification has nothing to do with soundstage. Whoever wrote that has a very active imagination.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
agreed, but given the OP's square room(never good) other challenges surface.

I love Maggies, owned IIIa's back in the day and will attest to their love of power and current capable amps.
A friend had Magnapans in a room that was really not great for them, but the sound was great because he placed them away from the walls and the money seat was centered on the direct and reflected sound. IIRC, he was using a Hafler amplifier.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Linkwitz suggested minimum distances for his dipole designs, and the Maggies, also being dipoles, should follow suit. In a nutshell: dipoles need a lot of breathing room; reflected rearward directed sound needs to be attenuated and delayed for maximum stereo illusion; that demands at least 4' distance between the speaker and the wall behind it, with less distance failing to provide the requisite delay and attenuation.

The Maggies may well demand an amp with low impedance drive capability, but that has little to do with the unique placement demands, and such an amp won't add depth of field to the soundstage of improperly placed dipoles.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Linkwitz suggested minimum distances for his dipole designs, and the Maggies, also being dipoles, should follow suit. In a nutshell: dipoles need a lot of breathing room; reflected rearward directed sound needs to be attenuated and delayed for maximum stereo illusion; that demands at least 4' distance between the speaker and the wall behind it, with less distance failing to provide the requisite delay and attenuation.

The Maggies may well demand an amp with low impedance drive capability, but that has little to do with the unique placement demands, and such an amp won't add depth of field to improperly placed dipoles.
agreed, whether it be Maggies or Logans, they gotta breath and when set up correctly it can be magical !
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Magnepan 3.6 manual recommends 75W to 250W. The Outlaw amp is pretty good and I would expect at moderate sound levels that 100W would be sufficient. I also had a friend in WI who had those speakers but he spent a lot of time experimenting with placement. The front panels were a good four feet away from the wall and he placed artificial trees behind the speakers to act is diffusers. That system still remains one of the best that I have ever heard. He was using Odyssey mono-blocks though which would be outside your budget.

I would agree with the others that placement will have the biggest impact with those speakers. The manual has some recommendations but you need to experiment from there. I don't think throwing money at amps will solve the issue on its own. If you want to play with amps for fun, an affordable option would be looking for a used Crown amp with a good 200W-250W per channel, but it won't be transformative. If you are looking to push the Maggies hard and get them loud, then some more power may be in order. The impedance specs are 4.7 ohms for the bass, 4.2 ohms for midrange/tweeter and 3.3 ohms for the ribbon tweeter, so you definitely want an amp that is capable of handling low impedance speakers and supplying plenty of current.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't know if this posing should be in amps or loudspeakers. Let me know if posted incorrectly.
I have 3.6Rs and using Emotiva UMC200 pre/proc and an Outlaw Audio 7100 in a 14 by 14 foot room. So I don't need to turn the volume up to massive levels. The amp will do 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 165 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I have been thinking of getting a separate two channel amp for the 3.6Rs. I have read that it takes lots of current to get the best soundstage with instrument placement and depth. I am getting wide soundstage and good sound, but the depth is somewhat muddied enough to not get instrument placement. I am looking for a two channel amp that will give me more of the potential of the 3.6Rs, but be able to be purchased for less that $750 used. Is there any amp that will be worth upgrading to for that kind of money or do I need a new pre/proc as well?
Magnepan speakers are planar speakers and have a tight figure of eight response. It is quite impossible for Magnepans to have any significant depth of sound stage, no matter what amp you use.
If you do like the presentation of those Maggies, then you need to speaker shop and not amp shop. Looking for an amp to increase the depth of stage is a total waste of time and money. That is the absolute truth.
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
I really think if your intending to use / own Maggies, then Tube amplification is the way to go. It's all very nice having a sp-called high output amp, But it's the quality of the signal that's important.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I really think if your intending to use / own Maggies, then Tube amplification is the way to go. It's all very nice having a sp-called high output amp, But it's the quality of the signal that's important.
Tube amps are not superior to solid state amps, in fact the reverse.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
as a 'general statement' I have to disagree ........
Yes. As I pointed out the problem the OP is complaining about is generic to all planar speakers except, the Quad ESLs with the built in delay lines on the membrane. The OP can NOT change the physics of his speakers no matter what he does.
 
B

burlingtonbill1

Audiophyte
Emotiva, least cost per watt yet still good enough sonics for Maggies.
 
F

fah

Audiophyte
nad 216 , my friend use that amplifier , quite dynamic and revealing
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
Those old Kraco car amps sounded like sweet honey being poured onto the glowing elements of a 1800 watt space heater. :)
 
J

jeentisa

Audiophyte
In your budget range of under $750 for a used amp, there are several options worth considering. Brands like Rotel, Marantz, NAD, and Emotiva itself offer quality amps within that price range that could potentially meet your needs. It's essential to research specific models within those brands to find one that aligns with your preferences and the requirements of your speakers.

However, before making a decision solely on upgrading your amp, it's worth considering other factors that might contribute to the muddied depth and lack of instrument placement. Your pre/proc, the Emotiva UMC200, could also play a role in the overall sound quality. If you've had the pre/proc for a while or suspect it might be limiting your system's potential, it could be worth exploring options for an upgrade there as well.
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
As a long term owner of planar dipoles (in my case Quad's) - I would support the many comments about placement...

You have to make sure that the rear sound off the panels, by the time it hits your ears, has enough delay added so your brain identifies it as "reflected" and seperates it from "direct sound" - that way you get good imaging and great soundstage.... imaging from direct sound, and soundstage from reflected sound.

Soundstage will obviously be affected by the room in terms of how much of that reflected sound is absorbed and how it is delivered.

Secondly - Maggies have a reputation for needing an amp that provides plenty of current - this is NOT a power issue, but a current issue... and also an issue of how an amp misbehaves when it runs out of current.

I have an Integra AVR (DRX 3.4) which is rated for 100W @ 8ohm - but has a small power supply - which means it does not cope well at all with speakers having impedance dips (for my speakers that is 1.6 ohm!) - the result, is it drives the speakers OK in terms of SPL, but the imaging and staging collapse.
Adding external power amps, that have more than ample current & power even into a 1 ohm load, completely restored the Imaging and Staging.

The point to be made here, is that although the primary driver of imaging and staging will be panel placement and room, depending on how your amp "misbehaves" when it runs out of current in its power supply (but is still well within the amp stages performance envelope - so not strictly speaking "clipping") - it may impact quite dramatically on staging and imaging.

I purchased a pair of used Crown XLS2500, these are primarily marketed into the professional band / pa market.... - they cost me only US$250 each - and the difference was quite dramatic compared to the AVR's internal amps.

Comparing those Crowns with my Quad 606 (vintage late 80's, current dumping design) - the Quad is much less powerful (like 1/3rd the output power of the Crown) - but it too is stable into a 2 ohm load, and can put out a good quality 90W into 2 ohm. (which in 8ohm equivalence is only circa 20W!)
But in real listening terms at the SPL's I use, and into my room, peak levels (using a 20db headroom measure) are reached easily with only 16W @ 8ohm.... (roughly 64W @ 2ohm).

The Quad and the Crown sounded sufficiently similar, that I doubt I could identify them in a blind test.
The AVR running on its own without either the Quad or Crown connected to drive the speakers, is immediately identifiable - sufficiently obvious (in a negative sense!) that there is no need to consider blind testing!

There are numerous used amps of recent and older vintage out there that are capable of putting out decent current, and are rated to drive 2 ohm loads - those can generally be purchased at a reasonable price - and typically, you can "move them on" if you don't like them, with little or no loss (and sometimes a slight gain!).

Crown have a long history of high powered amps that can put out heaps of current - especially if you are in North America - there are bargains to be had. - Watch for fan noise on certain models.
The XLS's that I have, the fans have never been audible - I am not sure whether it is simply that the fans are very quiet, or that I use them at such a low load factor (compared to their massive rated output) - that they never spin up. - Like I said, I purchased an XLS2500, 10 years ago, used, for US$250... (make sure you look on pro/pa/band forums, not audiophile ones!) - there are good deals out there.

Quad amps are a bit harder to find in North America, easily found in the UK, variable around the rest of the world.... any of the later models, will work great.... 606, 707, 909...
Rated at around 130 to 140W into 8 ohm, but they are very stable, and still have some "puff" even into 2ohm or 1 ohm loads. - I have not checked current market pricing on these.

There are lots of other options.... and often, top brands of 20 to 30 years ago, get forgotten, and their used pricing becomes very attractive.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
As a long term owner of planar dipoles (in my case Quad's) - I would support the many comments about placement...

You have to make sure that the rear sound off the panels, by the time it hits your ears, has enough delay added so your brain identifies it as "reflected" and seperates it from "direct sound" - that way you get good imaging and great soundstage.... imaging from direct sound, and soundstage from reflected sound.

Soundstage will obviously be affected by the room in terms of how much of that reflected sound is absorbed and how it is delivered.

Secondly - Maggies have a reputation for needing an amp that provides plenty of current - this is NOT a power issue, but a current issue... and also an issue of how an amp misbehaves when it runs out of current.

I have an Integra AVR (DRX 3.4) which is rated for 100W @ 8ohm - but has a small power supply - which means it does not cope well at all with speakers having impedance dips (for my speakers that is 1.6 ohm!) - the result, is it drives the speakers OK in terms of SPL, but the imaging and staging collapse.
Adding external power amps, that have more than ample current & power even into a 1 ohm load, completely restored the Imaging and Staging.

The point to be made here, is that although the primary driver of imaging and staging will be panel placement and room, depending on how your amp "misbehaves" when it runs out of current in its power supply (but is still well within the amp stages performance envelope - so not strictly speaking "clipping") - it may impact quite dramatically on staging and imaging.

I purchased a pair of used Crown XLS2500, these are primarily marketed into the professional band / pa market.... - they cost me only US$250 each - and the difference was quite dramatic compared to the AVR's internal amps.

Comparing those Crowns with my Quad 606 (vintage late 80's, current dumping design) - the Quad is much less powerful (like 1/3rd the output power of the Crown) - but it too is stable into a 2 ohm load, and can put out a good quality 90W into 2 ohm. (which in 8ohm equivalence is only circa 20W!)
But in real listening terms at the SPL's I use, and into my room, peak levels (using a 20db headroom measure) are reached easily with only 16W @ 8ohm.... (roughly 64W @ 2ohm).

The Quad and the Crown sounded sufficiently similar, that I doubt I could identify them in a blind test.
The AVR running on its own without either the Quad or Crown connected to drive the speakers, is immediately identifiable - sufficiently obvious (in a negative sense!) that there is no need to consider blind testing!

There are numerous used amps of recent and older vintage out there that are capable of putting out decent current, and are rated to drive 2 ohm loads - those can generally be purchased at a reasonable price - and typically, you can "move them on" if you don't like them, with little or no loss (and sometimes a slight gain!).

Crown have a long history of high powered amps that can put out heaps of current - especially if you are in North America - there are bargains to be had. - Watch for fan noise on certain models.
The XLS's that I have, the fans have never been audible - I am not sure whether it is simply that the fans are very quiet, or that I use them at such a low load factor (compared to their massive rated output) - that they never spin up. - Like I said, I purchased an XLS2500, 10 years ago, used, for US$250... (make sure you look on pro/pa/band forums, not audiophile ones!) - there are good deals out there.

Quad amps are a bit harder to find in North America, easily found in the UK, variable around the rest of the world.... any of the later models, will work great.... 606, 707, 909...
Rated at around 130 to 140W into 8 ohm, but they are very stable, and still have some "puff" even into 2ohm or 1 ohm loads. - I have not checked current market pricing on these.

There are lots of other options.... and often, top brands of 20 to 30 years ago, get forgotten, and their used pricing becomes very attractive.
I see you are a Quad owner from down under. Did you see my report of a recent service call to a Quad system.

I own 10 Quad 909 amps. My AV room is powered by seven Quad 909s and two Quad 405-2 power amps. The later power the ceiling speakers.
Three Quad 909s power the right and left mains, and one powers the center. One powers the surrounds and two power the rear backs.

The family room system has 1 Quad 909 and a Quad 405-2. The great room system is powered by two Quad 909s.
The Quad 909 is one of the finest amps to ever see the light of day.

Bank of Quads.



Powering this.





In the turntable case are Quad 22 preamp, Quad 44 preamp and Quad 34 preamp. There is also a Quad FM 4 in the rig and a Quad 33 preamp.

Family room system with Quad 909, Quad 405-2, Quad FM 4 and Quad 34 preamp.



Two Quad 909s powering the in wall great room system.



Quad: - "For the Closest Approach to the Original Sound."

If you don't have Ken Kessler's biography of Peter Walker, "The Closest Approach", then you should.

 
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