Bright Speaker

[triton799]

hey first post here

I have been interested in Music systems for a while, I bought some triangle zerius loudspeakers a couple of years ago to have my system sound a bit better, nicer to the ear, I was let down massively when i brought them home.

Since then I researched and shopped and trialled till i could take no more to replace them. I bought new pair of Ruarks, which are powered by a musical fidelity A5 amp and cambridge audio 740c CD player.Once again, i get them home and they sound harsh in the top end.

I proceeded to go to a local dealer ( i didnt buy speakers local) and we tried cable changes for interconnect and speaker cable also got to the point of putting enacom filters in place, ( i think thats correct spelling) anyway they were still bright.

The dealer then proceeded to demo off the same system and cable a small set of EPOS m12i which retail for less than half the price and I was blown away. I feel let down by the hard work of looking, and feel some shops CAN make a speaker sound better in store to lead u into false hope.

I guess what ur all saying is who cares, but does anyone know how to soften up a speakers considering the source and amplification i have is pretty good, or should I off load them and start again. if so is EPOS a good floor stander or just there bookshelf is amazing.

 

[j_garcia]

When you are auditioning, are you using your own material? The room will have an effect on the sound as well - if you listen in a well setup room with few reflections, the speaker will tend to be less bright. I've had similar experiences because my room is large and definitely not as well controlled sound wise as some of the local shops.

 

[triton799]

Yeah I do use own material, after years of auditioning you would think i got it right. But hell no. I know if cabling will fix it a bit with a enacom filter, the salesmen at shop convinced me easily the speaker was the problem and not the CD as I thought. He was very good and said look you could sell speakers and start again or get the crossover modded and speaker internally rewired with mor laid back cabling.

I don't know what to do.

 

[zhimbo]

One thing these salesman don't seem to bring up is your room acoustics (unless they sell acoustical treatments). What is your room like - lots of glass, hardwood floors, and open space? If so...

If the salesman is trying out different speaker wires to help you out, avoid further contact with him. He is of no use to you.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah I do use own material, after years of auditioning you would think i got it right. But hell no. I know if cabling will fix it a bit with a enacom filter, the salesmen at shop convinced me easily the speaker was the problem and not the CD as I thought. He was very good and said look you could sell speakers and start again or get the crossover modded and speaker internally rewired with mor laid back cabling.

I don't know what to do.

I can tell you changing cables will not help. I never heard of the enacom filter, but I looked into it and that's snake oil if I ever I saw it.

Ruark used to be a good speaker, and used exclusively Dynaudio drivers, but Dynaudio seem to have cut them off. Now I'm seeing speakers with very nasty Vifa midrange domes, produced under the auspices of the new owners, Tymphany.

I think you are blessed or cursed with a good ear. Most speakers are too bright and frankly about 99.9% of commercial speakers are no good.

The reasons are to satisfy the pop music crowd that the industry think like a forward sounding speaker, although I'm not sure it's true.

HT has been a problem as there has now become a need for good speech clarity. Many otherwise quite nicely balanced speakers of yesteryear don't have good speech clarity. Producing speakers that are well balanced and not bright, that have good speech clarity proved for me a hard nut to crack.

You have two options.

1). Carefully audition more speakers in your home.

2). Learn to build and voice your own speakers. The latter is probably your best option.

 

[triton799]

TLS guy ty for the response, I agree that ye i have a good ear, my annual hearing tests vouch for that, I wouldn't know where to start building and voicing my own speakers, Is there any reading or websites that can educate me on that?

The local dealer hear wants me to give my speakers to a Speaker designer and have him upgrade the crossovers and internal cabling to something more friendly sounding. I enjoy an open spacious sound with deep bass and the designewr believes this can be achieved with this kind of work.

My question is I am actually an avionics technician am pretty handy with the soldering iron do you think it would be achievable if i played with the crossover

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS guy ty for the response, I agree that ye i have a good ear, my annual hearing tests vouch for that, I wouldn't know where to start building and voicing my own speakers, Is there any reading or websites that can educate me on that?

The local dealer hear wants me to give my speakers to a Speaker designer and have him upgrade the crossovers and internal cabling to something more friendly sounding. I enjoy an open spacious sound with deep bass and the designewr believes this can be achieved with this kind of work.

My question is I am actually an avionics technician am pretty handy with the soldering iron do you think it would be achievable if i played with the crossover

First of all forget the wire. Your dealer sounds like a snake oil peddler. Wire is wire.

Where do you live, and what speakers are available to you? Which Ruark model do you have?

Modifying speakers seldom works out. It is much better to start with a clean slate. For a start I really doubt the designer will increase the bass response.

For books here is a good place to start.

http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/products/bkaa67.htm

It sounds as if your desires in speaker are the same as mine.

 

[Davemcc]

Explore room treatments a bit. It is simple, inexpensive and effective. Plus, it will make all the speakers that you ever place in your room sound better.

 

[anamorphic96]

Room Acoustics

triton799,

Can you please answer the question on your room acoustics. What are the room dimensions. Is it a highly reflective room with alot of hard surfaces or is it a bit more neutral with couches, carpet and drapes.

Room acoustics play one of the biggest roles in the sound you hear along with speakers.

 

[triton799]

anamorphic, hi,

my room dimension are 3.8m x 4.8 m, in a carpeted room. gyprock walls, i have tried speakers in multiple positions, although tere is a window full length across the width of the room.

I pulled them apart last night have a look inside, there rather well built actually, I don't know much about crossovers, although these are the Prologue2 with 2 paper cone 7inch drivers and a ferro fluid 27mm dome tweeter. The crossovers are not mounted on PCB they are mounted directly to a bit of wood.

TLS guy i live in Newcastle Australia. I heard the EPOS m12i (new product) against mine the other day they are a bookshelf and wow they were nice. I also have a pair of DYNAUDIO Audience 52 se as my rear speakers and tried them the one thing that both these bookshelf's gave over my Ruark Prologue 2's was absolutely gorgeous deep hitting bass, although the Ruarks do have a wonderful revealing midrange that is not congested.

The Speakers immediately in my area available are Dynuadio, Epos, Mirage, ProAC and Monitor Audio.

Also I have started researching what is required to DIY I would love to give it a go, its just i would like to try a previously created kit that someone knows is a nice speaker then tinker with it and learn.

Ty for your replies it is greatly appreciated

 

[TLS Guy]

anamorphic, hi,

my room dimension are 3.8m x 4.8 m, in a carpeted room. gyprock walls, i have tried speakers in multiple positions, although tere is a window full length across the width of the room.

I pulled them apart last night have a look inside, there rather well built actually, I don't know much about crossovers, although these are the Prologue2 with 2 paper cone 7inch drivers and a ferro fluid 27mm dome tweeter. The crossovers are not mounted on PCB they are mounted directly to a bit of wood.

TLS guy i live in Newcastle Australia. I heard the EPOS m12i (new product) against mine the other day they are a bookshelf and wow they were nice. I also have a pair of DYNAUDIO Audience 52 se as my rear speakers and tried them the one thing that both these bookshelf's gave over my Ruark Prologue 2's was absolutely gorgeous deep hitting bass, although the Ruarks do have a wonderful revealing midrange that is not congested.

The Speakers immediately in my area available are Dynuadio, Epos, Mirage, ProAC and Monitor Audio.

Also I have started researching what is required to DIY I would love to give it a go, its just i would like to try a previously created kit that someone knows is a nice speaker then tinker with it and learn.

Ty for your replies it is greatly appreciated

I don't know that speaker, but I bet the drivers are Vifa. They probably sound bright because the F3 is 48 Hz and will roll of at 24 db per octave. May be you should try blending in a good sub at 60 Hz, so you have a better balance. Otherwise try auditioning the bigger Dynaudio speakers and Monitor audio

 

[triton799]

Hi ill try this again, i posted a thorough reply but it seems it didn't get here,

TLS guy it is ironic that you say DYns as I had a chance to purchase some 72SE for a good price until the better half asked me to look no more and chose between what i had already seen.

I also could pick up some Monitor audio GS10 as well, I know there a bookshelf but they do sound nice.

I have thought about keeping my ruarks , tinkering with them eg try new drivers, have a play with crossover , use new cable and see how it goes, or trade for a new pair. The driver option and crossover sounds good , but i have no idea where to start with drivers, or good quality parts for crossovers. I even contemplated using the crossover from my dyns as they crossover at different point and look well made.

Any Ideas on drivers or types of capacitors, resistors and inductors.

The crossover is just wired on a block of wood in the ruark so I think i could come up with something.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi ill try this again, i posted a thorough reply but it seems it didn't get here,

TLS guy it is ironic that you say DYns as I had a chance to purchase some 72SE for a good price until the better half asked me to look no more and chose between what i had already seen.

I also could pick up some Monitor audio GS10 as well, I know there a bookshelf but they do sound nice.

I have thought about keeping my ruarks , tinkering with them eg try new drivers, have a play with crossover , use new cable and see how it goes, or trade for a new pair. The driver option and crossover sounds good , but i have no idea where to start with drivers, or good quality parts for crossovers. I even contemplated using the crossover from my dyns as they crossover at different point and look well made.

Any Ideas on drivers or types of capacitors, resistors and inductors.

The crossover is just wired on a block of wood in the ruark so I think i could come up with something.

You can't change drivers. Every driver has unique Thiel/Small parameters, and every box has to be sized and tuned to the driver. The crossover is also unique to the drivers, so you can't change crossover from one speaker to another.

When I say start from scratch, I mean select drivers and design a box and custom crossovers. It is pretty much a waste of time trying to mod an existing speaker.

I think in your situation you are better off getting rid of the Ruarks and auditioning speakers in your home.

You might want to audition these.

http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/systems/lines/audience/72se.php

and these

http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/systems/lines/focus/focus220.php

and these.

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/product.php?application=&range=1&product=2&area=2

 

[triton799]

ty for your input, I didn't realize that speakers were so finicky with design parameters.

I have already e-mailed the dealer who sold the Ruarks and asked if it was possible to exchange my Ruarks for the Monitor Audio Gs series for a small premium, I surely hope he does as I'm not made of money and will struggle to be able to afford another pair.

Are there any good websites where I can sell the speakers. keeping in mind I live in Australia.

Its a shame really as they are brilliant speakers in there own right just a little lite in the bass and a little high in the treble, but they do have a beautiful spacious image and staging, actually its the best I have heard.

Once again ty for the valuable input I am seriously looking into either the Monitors audios depending on changeover, the Dyns and also a dark horse the New EPOS range.
I see you have recommended Floorstanders you obviously don't rate bookshelves? keeping in mind a sub will not be far away either.

 

[Davemcc]

Keep in mind that no matter what speaker you replace your existing speakers with, there is a very good chance that it will not solve your problem. If the room acoustics are the source of the brightness, any new speaker will suffer the same fate as the old.

You see, you have favorably auditioned and purchased some fine speakers only to find that they sound bright in your home. What makes you think that repeating this series of events will lead to a different outcome? Be sure to audition any new speaker in your home before you buy it in the event that you audition it succesfully but it sounds bright in your listening area.

 

[anamorphic96]

Ditto what Davemcc said.

I'm a bit surprised the Monitor Audio was suggested since they are know to be brighter than average speaker. The Dynaudio would probably be the more neutral of the of the bunch.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ditto what Davemcc said.

I'm a bit surprised the Monitor Audio was suggested since they are know to be brighter than average speaker. The Dynaudio would probably be the more neutral of the of the bunch.

I agree, which is why I put Monitor Audio at the bottom of the list.

 

[triton799]

Yes the monitor Audio would be the last choice, at the moment i have been comparing my Dynaudio 52's against my Ruarks, the Dyns are no where near as bright, have awesome bass thats clean & tight, the ruark as I have mentioned are a gorgeous speaker but somehow the piono and stringed instruments do get a little less attention than with the Little Dyn bookshelf's, the Ruarks have better staging though.

i do agree Davemcc that i need to audition in my home, that was my fatal first mistake, the local dealer here who sells Dynaudio and EPOS has been told that if I look at buying from them I will not consider buying unless I can try in my own home, I made this point very clear. In australia its hard to find a dealer who will allow you to take them home. The dealer went silent after I mentioned the fact of trying put in own home first.

I don't believe the room is bright hearing what the Audience 52's give me.

Also a little liveliness in the top would not hurt if I had a little of Low end presence , but a its not there they sound very thin.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes the monitor Audio would be the last choice, at the moment i have been comparing my Dynaudio 52's against my Ruarks, the Dyns are no where near as bright, have awesome bass thats clean & tight, the ruark as I have mentioned are a gorgeous speaker but somehow the piono and stringed instruments do get a little less attention than with the Little Dyn bookshelf's, the Ruarks have better staging though.

i do agree Davemcc that i need to audition in my home, that was my fatal first mistake, the local dealer here who sells Dynaudio and EPOS has been told that if I look at buying from them I will not consider buying unless I can try in my own home, I made this point very clear. In australia its hard to find a dealer who will allow you to take them home. The dealer went silent after I mentioned the fact of trying put in own home first.

I don't believe the room is bright hearing what the Audience 52's give me.

Also a little liveliness in the top would not hurt if I had a little of Low end presence , but a its not there they sound very thin.

Beware the speaker that is precise imaging. It's not correct. Close your eyes at the next concert you attend and you you will see what I mean.

I have nothing against bookshelves, I just thought you were looking for a robust sounding speaker, that will give a good account of itself down into the 30 Hz range.

 

[Davemcc]

The Epos that I've heard do have a somewhat softer high end, the British sound (if one can characterize a speaker that way). It's hard to say how they would fare model to model or room to room, but they might do the trick in your room. However, I'm still going to go back and suggest that a couple of simple acoustic panels in your room might cure the issues you're having with the Ruarks. That will be a cheaper and easier solution with greater effect than changing speakers. After the room treatment, if you still decide to get new speakers, they will also benefit from the room treatment so it will not be in vain.