Brand Spanking New Newbie Here...

[caffeine]

Hi all,

I've always loved music with a *passion* and devoted a lot of time, money, and effort in building up an awesome music collection in both quality and quantity. I've never really put much effort into building an audio system, rather, I've gone for half-decent stereo amps with so-so speakers because money has always been tight. It's mentally easier to spend $500 on 50 CDs than on a speaker.

Well, after 15 years, college is finally over and is paying off. I'm in a position where I can afford to invest some real money into a killer system. This weekend I whipped out MS Visio and mapped out what my perfect AV system might look like and be capable of.

I'm technically very competent (physicist by training), but unfortunately, know almost literally zero about high-quality audio equipment. However, I want to change that.

I'm going to start following my Visio roadmap (I'd post a pdf if attachments were allowed on these forums). It seems to make sense to start with the speaker. Here's what I'd like:

* 3 sets of high quality speakers: bedroom, kitchen and living room.
* I'd like some kind of surround sound configuration (5.1?) in the living room and perhaps the bedroom, but it's not absolutely necessary.
* I want to focus on quality audio: deep booming bass, punchy mid-range and strong highs.
* At odds to this, I was *hoping* to get wireless speakers to avoid stringing wires across the house which is always a pain. We have quite a few computers and electronic gadgets, so the house is filled with wires as it is.
* However, I've read that wireless speakers tend to be low-quality because of various sources of RF interference.
* I thought perhaps speakers exist with some kind of built-in pre-amplification that would use USB or ethernet to transmit the signal in a much thinner, more flexible wire. However, all speakers I've seen like this are small desktop type speakers. I want big speakers that can output great sounding music loudly.

This is the first time I've ever put thought into audio equipment, so I apologize if my post seems clueless. I do want to learn very much.

Does anyone know of any speakers that might be a fit for what I want?

Any comments on any part of this post would be *so* greatly appreciated!

Thank you so much for reading this overly long post!

Pete

ps- Here are urls for the roadmap I spoke of:

pdf: dirac.org/roadmap.pdf
visio: dirac.org/roadmap.vsd

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum!

Excellent screen name, btw.

 

[septim]

Hi all,

I've always loved music with a *passion* and devoted a lot of time, money, and effort in building up an awesome music collection in both quality and quantity. I've never really put much effort into building an audio system, rather, I've gone for half-decent stereo amps with so-so speakers because money has always been tight. It's mentally easier to spend $500 on 50 CDs than on a speaker.

Wow we have the exact opposite problem. I can never justify spending money on small things like media.

As a fellow newbie I can say that I like this place a lot and hope you will to.

 

[Davemcc]

I've always thought these in copper or polished steel would be perfect for a kitchen.
http://www.orbaudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=6

Systems for the bedroom and living room can each generate multiple threads here on their own account, whether for speakers, amplification/processing, subwoofers, acoustics, display, etc. There are so many brands, models, budgets, preferences, exclusions, finishes or what have you that it's best to start a thread for each component in the system individually. You are right to start the search with speakers.

The roadmap could probably use some updating. For starters, you can combine the remote controls into one univeral remote for your TV and all the audio components. Even a Harmony Remote for under $100 can give you one button access to most or all the activities you will most often use, possibly barring the gaming and multimedia computer (depending on what they are). Also, you can probably drop the Eq from the roadmap, as virtually all new HT receivers have some form of automatic or manual room correction as well as built in multi band equalizers. There is almost no need for separate Eq's anymore.

The receiver also becomes your hub for all audio and video connections. The display essentially becomes a passive monitor with only one HDMI connection from the receiver. The receiver will do all the video switching and source selection. Even the computer's video can be connected to the receiver and sent to the display via the same cable as the other components.

It's very common to have receivers with 2, 3 or even 4 zones of audio. Some will even send HD video and multichannel audio to the second zone (at the very high end). You can choose to use these separate zones in the receiver for the kitchen, patio, bedroom, etc. or build a completely separate system with it's own receiver for the bedroom connected by a LAN media server.

Enough for now. There's a ton of basic system and configuration options to address. Perhaps we can narrow those options down here and start new threads for the speakers required for each system?

 

[Loren42]

Let's start with your budget.

Then break that down into approximate numbers for each room.

Everything is a compromise in life and audio. Where you put your emphasis will determine how much and to what extent you compromise.

I fully understand that you do not like wires and nor do I. However, I was not willing to compromise on a specific aspect of my sound. So, I have three pairs of #16 wire running to each speaker because tri-amping was more important to me than the number of wires. It looks like I will be adding a 4th pair to that arrangement if an experiment pans out. So it goes.

However, let's get back to your situation and talk numbers, then we can go to the next step and help us understand what are your audio hot buttons.

 

[CraigV]

Shop-listen-audition-repeat

…until you find what suits you best

 

[caffeine]

Such awesome replies! I've never met anyone who really invested in killer audio systems like you guys have (and like I want to). When I get home from work, I'll update the roadmap to include a single remote and make EQ optional.

Price. I don't need to get everything immediately -- things like the bedroom speakers, TV, record and cassette players can wait. The multimedia computer is currently my Linux desktop, but I plan on building a dedicated multimedia server this summer. I don't mind spending $5k - $6k to begin with, and as paychecks accumulate, I can go further down the roadmap.

Priority goes to the living room, since that's where I spend the most amount of time. For $6k, I'd like to have at least music (CD/DVD/media server) functional in the living room.

Loren42, three pairs of wires? 6 wires to each speaker? That would be 12 wires to any given room, or 36 wires coming into the living room. That's quite a lot of wires. LOL. I'm going to have to Google "triamping"; never heard of it.

I'm so new to this, I guess I don't have any audio hot buttons yet. However, I would like to get them! What kinds of things do people look for in high quality audio?

Davemcc, thanks for verifying the speakers are a good place to start. I chose them mainly because even if I blow everything on speakers to begin with, I can at least temporarily use them with the Sanyo crap I'm currently using. I have to admit I drooled a bit reading your reply.

Adam and Septim, thanks guys. I feel like Googling for this forum was *such* the right thing to do. I've been meaning to do this for years now.

So as of right now, I have $5k-$6k to play with, and I'd like this to include (if possible) the living room speakers and amp/tuner for the living room. Since I spend the VAST majority of my time doing calculations at my desk, I care about the quality of the audio the most in the living room.

A friend at work said he did research on HT and found B&W and Energy speakers to be very good -- well beyond consumer level and (at least the ones he saw) below the insanely priced professional level.

Does anyone have suggestions for living room speakers and an amp/tuner that's flexible enough to do what I have in mind for this price?

I hope nobody is laughing after I mentioned $5k-$6k.

 

[Swerd]

Caffeine

Welcome to Audioholics. Yes, it is an excellent idea to begin with speakers. In audio, that's where the rubber hits the road. Because of your physics background, you'll understand that speakers transform electromagnetic signals into mechanical vibrations. And because of that transformation, speakers are where the greatest distortions of the original musical signal take place. Therefore, money well spent on good speakers will deliver the best sound. Although all the other electronic items in home AV are important, the audible differences among them are less noticeable than with speakers.

Loudspeakers should produce sound over a wide range of loudness and audio frequencies. The speakers should respond to large changes of electrical signal voltage with proportional changes in loudness in a linear fashion, over the full audio frequency spectrum without significant changes or coloration to the sound. Obviously there are limits to this, but linear response to loudness changes and a flat frequency response curve are the goals.

Although many people claim to hear differently, science has shown remarkable similarities to the way we actually perceive sound with our ears. What does differ enormously is what happens between the ears. There is no accounting for taste and preference. Just the same, science has shown that when perceptual biases are properly controlled in carefully designed listening experiments, people most often prefer loudspeakers that produce flat loudness vs. frequency curves.

Your background in physics should make you suspicious of claims of performance that seem to violate the laws of physics. Unfortunately audio is full of this. A good example is the claim of vastly improved sound due exotic or unusually expensive speaker cable. Common sense should tell you that a passive device, such as an electric wire, can make little or no difference to the signal it carries. Don't waste your time arguing with people who make or believe these or other doubtful claims – just don't believe them. If anyone tries to sell you silver wires with teflon insulation or talks about the skin effect at audio frequencies, run for the door! Caveat emptor!

As far as speaker choices:

• Listen to a variety of speakers, but pick a realistic price range and stay within it.
• Bring along several of your own CDs to play when auditioning the speakers. Be sure to include some music that has single instruments such as piano, guitar, or voice. It is often more revealing to hear how a speaker succeeds or fails with un-amplified single instruments or voices than it is to listen to music packed with sound such as amplified rock or a symphony orchestra playing at full tilt. Listen at both low and high volumes.
• Be prepared to spend more than 5 or 10 minutes listening to each speaker you try. Sometimes, your initial impression changes after 15 to 30 minutes more listening.
• Take your time until you know what you prefer. There are enough different speakers made to suit many different tastes.

Learn how to talk about sound. All we can do here on the audio forums is talk or post photos. I find this web page useful for a vocabulary of sound jargon.

* At odds to this, I was *hoping* to get wireless speakers to avoid stringing wires across the house which is always a pain. We have quite a few computers and electronic gadgets, so the house is filled with wires as it is.
* However, I've read that wireless speakers tend to be low-quality because of various sources of RF interference.

Rather than looking for wireless speakers, look for wireless devices that connect a computer to an AV receiver, such as a Logitech Squeezebox. It will allow a wireless or ethernet connection between a computer and your AV receiver. It will provide remote control access to any music files stored on your computer even if the computer is not in the same room as your sound system. Look also at the Squeezebox Duet that allows you to set up wireless networks in multiple rooms. There are now other similar devices that work for audio or video files.

* I thought perhaps speakers exist with some kind of built-in pre-amplification that would use USB or ethernet to transmit the signal in a much thinner, more flexible wire. However, all speakers I've seen like this are small desktop type speakers. I want big speakers that can output great sounding music loudly.

Speakers that produce big sound require large amounts of voltage and current. For the present, stay with traditional systems that use big amplifiers and copper wires.

 

[griffinconst]

Believe me, no one is laughing at your $5-6K budget. Lots of guys come hear asking about a killer system for $400.
You should be able to set yourself up with a great receiver and your living room 5.1 speakers for that, unless you want to go VERY high end. There are $50K + speakers in this world, although I'm pretty sure they came from another.

Auditioning speakers is addictive. Once you get started you'll want to hear more and more. It has made it very hard for me to make a purchase. I have narrowed it down though. Pack up a bunch of cd's that you know very well and go out to all the shops in your area. Listen, listen, and listen some more. After you narrow it down come back and tell us what you like. The guys can then give you some good advice. We may be able to direct you to internet only companies whose products sound similar to what you like, at a better price. Most of them have a 30 day return policy.

I believe Craig V has an excellent post on auditioning speakers. I would advise everyone to read that. I don't know how to put up a link but look him up.

Just to get you started, try to hear Paradigm, Monitor Audio, B&W, Focal, PSB, Quad, and Energy. There are many more but that will get you going. You've probably heard a lot about Bose but I would suggest all mentioned above kick the sh** out of them.
One more thing, have the sales guy play the speakers with power similar to what you think you will be getting. More watts or separate amps will make speakers sound different. You might even consider buying the receiver first and then going for speakers so the sales guy can use something similar to yours.

Good luck and keep us informed. After you buy we will be requiring pics.

 

[CraigV]

I believe Craig V has an excellent post on auditioning speakers. I would advise everyone to read that. I don't know how to put up a link but look him up.

Ah, you’re too kind (apparently, my checks cleared)

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54874&highlight=approach

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54883&highlight=approach

 

[m_vanmeter]

"caffeine"
there is a thread on AVSforum that is kind of a "quest for greatness" by a gentleman on a search for "great sound". It is interesting and the 175 responses were well thought out and informative. The original poster was "oldtexasdog" and his final decision was on message #163 (hate to give away the ending). I recommend reading through the whole 175 posts as a "learning experience" - I know I learned a lot about high end speakers.

If you have the time, the thread is
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1115173

enjoy !

PS: if you can audition B&W, Salk Sound, Paradigm, and Monitor Audio - it's a great place to start - Everyone will hear and perceive sound differently - and speakers that sound fabulous in a dealers showroom can sound like mud pies in your home.

 

[griffinconst]

Ah, you’re too kind (apparently, my checks cleared)

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54874&highlight=approach

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54883&highlight=approach

What are relatives for?

 

[braminator]

Welcome to the forum

 

[fredk]

Everyone will hear and perceive sound differently

Everyone will interpret what they hear differently. In proper blind testing people's preferences are remarkably similar.

Check out the Audioholics University section of this website. There are lots of excellent articles on the things that affect good quality sound.

 

[Davemcc]

If you have the time, the thread is
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1115173

No need to link over to AVS. You can follow this same fella's quest right here. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52261&highlight=experienced+audiophiles The difference in replies between here and there is interesting though. It was a bit anti-climactic, however, as he choose a pair of speakers that he felt was inferior simply based on the price of a used speaker deal.

Caffeine,

I've had some time to think about your situation and budget. If I were in your position, I would spend the $6K to get a pair of Salk HT2 and an Onkyo TX-NR906. Then build the rest of the system(s) around this nucleus.

I had the time at work to mentally review all the speakers that I've heard in this general price range. I had considered suggesting the Dynaudio Focus 220, which are about $1K cheaper, but the HT2 really just blows those away. Also note that I own Dynaudio Focus series speakers, so I don't un-recommend them lightly. The HT2 are just that good.

The Onkyo 906 is Onkyo's flagship receiver and I suggest it for a number of reasons that you might appreciate. Check out the features page to see how it could help you. http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR906&class=Receiver&p=f The Onkyo 876 is also a fine choice as a budget saver.

By adding the remaining speakers and components over time, you can build yourself an absolutely killer system based around this core.

 

[Swerd]

...I've had some time to think about your situation and budget. If I were in your position, I would spend the $6K to get a pair of Salk HT2 and an Onkyo TX-NR906. Then build the rest of the system(s) around this nucleus.

I had the time at work to mentally review all the speakers that I've heard in this general price range. I had considered suggesting the Dynaudio Focus 220, which are about $1K cheaper, but the HT2 really just blows those away. Also note that I own Dynaudio Focus series speakers, so I don't un-recommend them lightly. The HT2 are just that good.

The Onkyo 906 is Onkyo's flagship receiver and I suggest it for a number of reasons that you might appreciate. Check out the features page to see how it could help you. http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR906&class=Receiver&p=f The Onkyo 876 is also a fine choice as a budget saver.

By adding the remaining speakers and components over time, you can build yourself an absolutely killer system based around this core.

I agree with Dave's recommendation in general. Those Salks are truly excellent speakers.

Dave specified the Salk HT2 speaker. Did you mean the HT2 model or the HT2-TL model? With similar finishes, the difference in price is about $500/pair. That pays for a larger and heavier transmission line (TL) cabinet which will have noticeably better bass performance than the standard ported bass reflex cabinet.

If that price is too much, you should consider the SongTowers which sell for about half the price of the HT2 or HT2-TL. The STs also have transmission line cabinets which I strongly recommend. Read my ST listening impressions here. Also read three professional reviews of these speakers:

Enjoy The Music
Audioholics
Sonic Flare​

 

[lsiberian]

I am fairly new and a recent grad. I've gotten hardcore in the DIY part of the hobby.

I suggest you at least consider it. There is great value and superior sound to be had for those who like saws, routers, and the smell of birch ply filling their lungs. *Grunt

There is a DIY part for amps too. I hate EE so I stay away from that, but if your good with a soldering iron you might give it a go. The receiver is very important and should be the heart of your system.

For wireless tech. Rocketfish is alright and KEF makes a nice one. Still I suggest holding off until the prices come down more.

There are limitless ways to build a system. You can go new, used, DIY, refurb. Vintage, New stuff. Turntables, Tape decks, CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays. Solid State, Tubes.

Just so many options one can get sick. I suggest experimenting and playing as much as you want.

 

[Davemcc]

Did you mean the HT2 model or the HT2-TL model? With similar finishes, the difference in price is about $500/pair.

Honestly, I'd be happy with either. If I had the budget, definitely the TL cabinet. But that's just me...

 

[caffeine]

Thank you

Thank you, everyone.

I think I have the information I need to start. You have all been truly wonderful.

After reading and digesting the two part "rant" by CraigV, I started to get really angry at my current setup. I sat down and really listened to my stereo and speakers and the more I listened, the more I realized how much I'm cheating myself of quality audio. Life is way too short for bad audio. After spending most of yesterday listening -- really listening -- to my stereo, I'm more determined now than ever that spending money on good audio is something that I really need to do.

I created a web page outlining everything I've learned and want to do here:

dirac.org/audioproject

I've digested most of the info from this thread and know pretty much what I need to do now.

I created mix CDs with classic rock, modern rock, hip-hop, rap, country, classical, and jazz. It's now just a matter of listening.

I think my next posts will be a bit more specific in scope.

Thanks for all the great advice!

Pete

 

[Davemcc]

You seem to be very, very organized in your approach. That's good. I will give you one link that will make the choice of all cables, wires, connectors and accessories very easy.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/department.asp?c_id=109

Search monoprice on this site for unbiased reviews of it's price, quality and customer service.