Bowers & Wilkins CM5 - not that great?

T

TheStalker

Banned
WOW!!! How did I miss this thread? The B&W CM5s are the very best sounding speakers under $5000, IMO. Ascends? Seriously?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
WOW!!! How did I miss this thread? The B&W CM5s are the very best sounding speakers under $5000, IMO. Ascends? Seriously?
I think that's the most relevant part of your statement ;)
 
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macddmac

macddmac

Audioholic General
Go troll someplace else please.
Had to replay my security footage to see exactly how many chuckles, chortles, snorts, guffaws, and downright chokes on my iced tea I had I actually got after that one :0
 
N

n0rth

Audioholic Intern
The bowers are good just not great and at 800 bux for the pair id like to avoid made in china since I know it costs a fraction of that to produce them over there.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
The bowers are good just not great and at 800 bux for the pair id like to avoid made in china since I know it costs a fraction of that to produce them over there.
There's made in China and then there's made in China. If you don't stay on top of the manufacturer's the quality can take a nose dive. I think anyone who has had dealings with Dennis will assure you that he isn't likely to let that happen with the Philharmonitors.
 
H

Hyperion

Audiophyte
Bowers & Wilkins CM5 - not that great?

I think the CM 5 is one of the best sounding bookshelfs. But then again still alot of poeple buy bose or canton who in my opinion sound shallow or 2 deep.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
what about these? at 290 a pop and that svs sub??

E55Ti Tower Speakers :

EMP Tek E55Ti Tower Speakers

would be powering with a pioneer elite sc-65 reciever

They're okay....:) On the off chance that you're located near or in OKC you can come have a listen


They do need a small boost on the top end (any avr eq or stand alone eq will do that most likely). I've contacted EMP to see if they can change the crossover to add a db or 2 to the tweeter (or back to the tweeter if they're using an l-pad or something). Fuzz is correct in that they definitely need a sub. I think any 99% of speakers could benefit from a sub.

Also, I wouldn't get the e5ci. It has been said that it doesn't match very well with the e55's. It was made for the older, smaller towers from EMP. Pick up the e56ci....and prepare for shock when you realize that thing is your center lol. Now I know size or number of drivers doesn't mean quality sound, but still. In this price range and especially for the BF prices these speakers are an incredible value.
 
N

n0rth

Audioholic Intern
Thanks - Im in the north Dallas area so you Def arn't too far away. I am looking at the philhamonitors as well. If you want to do a test for me you can listen to Jimi hendrix - machine gun. At 4:00 on the record he bends that note and on other speakers at the appropriate volume my ears bleed. The cm5's soften that quite a bit. Here is a shitty quality youtube version:

Jimi Hendrix Band of Gypsys - Machine Gun - YouTube

its a t 4:15 but i would start a couple seconds back.
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks - Im in the north Dallas area so you Def arn't too far away. I am looking at the philhamonitors as well. If you want to do a test for me you can listen to Jimi hendrix - machine gun. At 4:00 on the record he bends that note and on other speakers at the appropriate volume my ears bleed. The cm5's soften that quite a bit. Here is a shitty quality youtube version:

Jimi Hendrix Band of Gypsys - Machine Gun - YouTube

its a t 4:15 but i would start a couple seconds back.
Not that it would matter but I bet the guy who designed the Philmonitors never ever heard a Hendrix solo...just saying....lol.:D
 
N

n0rth

Audioholic Intern
but hes a smart guy/musician - I already talked to him regarding this issue on the hendrix solo and he immediately pointed me to a graph of the CM5's where it showed a dip in the frequency range where those notes most likely would be. The phils do not have such a dip
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Not that it would matter but I bet the guy who designed the Philmonitors never ever heard a Hendrix solo...just saying....lol.:D
I have now. My ears. My bleeding ears. And, of course, I heard him at Woodstock.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
The B&W's have a rating of 8 ohms, but a minimum of 3.7 ohms. The Emps have a rating of 6 ohms and a minimum of 4 ohms. To me, this tells me that the B&W's should probably have a 6 ohm rating as well. Either way, it's not terribly important.

More important is that they have the same sensitivity.
To me, neither are 6 ohm speakers. Using the "standard" formula:

Z[SUB]nom[/SUB] = 1.15 x Z[SUB]min[/SUB]

the B&W's would be 4.255 ohms nominally and the Emps would be 4.6 ohms. If we round them off, the B&W's would be 4 ohms nominally, and the Emps would be 5 ohms nominally. Both companies, it seems, pull their "nominal" impedance numbers out of their asses. Given that they basically lie about that, I would not be too trusting about any of their other claims either.
 
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ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
On that note...I saw Pearl Jam live a few nights ago. Awesome! They played a 31 song set list. Started at 8:30 and played until 11:45pm
 
ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
To me, neither are 6 ohm speakers. Using the "standard" formula:

Z[SUB]nom[/SUB] = 1.15 x Z[SUB]min[/SUB]

the B&W's would be 4.255 ohms nominally and the Emps would be 4.6 ohms. If we round them off, the B&W's would be 4 ohms nominally, and the Emps would be 5 ohms nominally. Both companies, it seems, pull their "nominal" impedance numbers out of their asses. Given that they basically lie about that, I would not be too trusting about any of their other claims either.
So you need 5.215 ohms (Min.) to have a 6 ohm nominal correct?

Wouldn't the dip up top not really matter much? The dip at 500hz surely hurts worse, but how bad?



Red line at 5.215 ohms (roughly)

 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
So you need 5.215 ohms (Min.) to have a 6 ohm nominal correct?

Wouldn't the dip up top not really matter much? The dip at 500hz surely hurts worse, but how bad?



Red line at 5.215 ohms (roughly)

If one allows for rounding, having an impedance of 5.5 ohms nominally could be called 6 ohms nominally. Thus, a minimum impedance of 4.7827 ohms could be called "6 ohms nominal."

But your other point is well taken. How much it matters does very much depend on the frequency. If it is at a frequency that requires minimal power, then it will matter less than if it is at a frequency that requires a lot of power. In general, this means that the higher the frequency, the less it matters.

There is also another consideration from the fact that such impedances will matter more for some amplifiers than others. With my Crown K2 power amp, none of this would make any significant difference with the impedances we are discussing.

Also, even with an amplifier not designed for low impedances, how much such things matter also depends upon how hard one wishes to drive the speaker. If one is listening to soft background music, instead of trying to recreate the loudness of a live concert, this, too, will make a significant difference for the question of how much such impedance dips matter.

So for your second question, how bad does it hurt?, there is not a single, simple answer. However, my point was not about whether it would matter or how much it would matter, but is about the honesty and accuracy of the claims made by the manufacturers. If they cannot get something this simple right, for which there is a standard mathematical determination from a simple formula, how much do you think you should trust their other claims?

But in this sort of case, it can matter very much if one is pairing the speaker with an amplifier that is not designed for low impedances, and one wishes to play things very loud. With such an amplifier, one might destroy it due to trusting their lies about their speakers. And, of course, you will never get them to pay to have your amplifier repaired, even though it is their fault by selling you speakers that are unsuitable for such amplifiers while claiming that they are suitable for them.

Quite simply, speaker companies ought to follow the standard for rating their speakers, and not simply slap higher numbers on them in order to sell them to people who might otherwise reject them, as they are unsuited to their present amplifiers. So what we have are companies lying about their products in order to make more sales. That is what is known as fraud. In this case, however, it appears that there is no LEGAL definition of "nominal impedance," and so they say whatever the hell they want. This, by the way, means that one cannot trust those numbers, and should look either for professional reviews in which speakers are properly measured, or judge based upon the minimum impedance instead of the nominal impedance, which, with some manufacturers, is a completely misleading and totally useless number. Evidently, this comment applies to both B&W and EMP, who obviously are not to be trusted when they tell you about their products, because we know they lie about them. Their claims about nominal impedance are pure BS designed to sucker people into buying their speakers, even though they are not a good match for amplifiers designed for their claimed impedances, that are not also designed for lower impedances.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
To me, neither are 6 ohm speakers. Using the "standard" formula:

Z[SUB]nom[/SUB] = 1.15 x Z[SUB]min[/SUB]

the B&W's would be 4.255 ohms nominally and the Emps would be 4.6 ohms. If we round them off, the B&W's would be 4 ohms nominally, and the Emps would be 5 ohms nominally. Both companies, it seems, pull their "nominal" impedance numbers out of their asses. Given that they basically lie about that, I would not be too trusting about any of their other claims either.
I know the math, my reference was more to what the companies themselves would label their speakers as. I think AH has made it pretty clear through some of their articles that speaker manufacturer impedance ratings are usually hogwash (at least for the majority of the "big" name brands). ID companies seem to be a bit better on that front, at least the one's that provide at least some graphs.

Never hurts reiterating though ;)
 
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N

n0rth

Audioholic Intern
I bi-amped these speakers and I have to say I definitely get more volume out of the speakers and slightly better highs. I used Return to Forever Live in Montreux - No Mystery as my test.

To create a baseline in my I set the speakers to Large and removed the subwoofer and listened to No Mystery. At +15db exactly speakers would distort

Put receiver in bi-amp and connected the correct speaker out puts as per documentation. Got to +18.5db no distortion - unfortunately I could not go any further as It was just plain too loud and hurting my ears.

The only part where I noticed a clarity difference was during the bass solo when Clarke user a Bow. There I noticed a slight instrument vibration I was unable to detect before.. Wonder if there is a way to get even more out of the speakers as I read people on the net talk about "tweaking" these speakers to get a better sound?? Seems kinda dumb to pay 800 bux for speakers that need to be "tweaked".
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I bi-amped these speakers and I have to say I definitely get more volume out of the speakers and slightly better highs. I used Return to Forever Live in Montreux - No Mystery as my test.

To create a baseline in my I set the speakers to Large and removed the subwoofer and listened to No Mystery. At +15db exactly speakers would distort

Put receiver in bi-amp and connected the correct speaker out puts as per documentation. Got to +18.5db no distortion - unfortunately I could not go any further as It was just plain too loud and hurting my ears.

The only part where I noticed a clarity difference was during the bass solo when Clarke user a Bow. There I noticed a slight instrument vibration I was unable to detect before.. Wonder if there is a way to get even more out of the speakers as I read people on the net talk about "tweaking" these speakers to get a better sound?? Seems kinda dumb to pay 800 bux for speakers that need to be "tweaked".
Passive bi-amp, especially from the same AVR/same shared power supply, shouldn't do anything at all. Most of us have tried passive bi-amp using 2 different amps and it still didn't do anything at all.

Passive bi-amp is a total waste of time, regardless of theory.
 
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