Bowers & Wilkins 50th Anniversary and 800 D3 Speakers Unveiled

[<eargiant]

That doesn't mean anything. We all have been in this hobby for a very long time and have listened to a lot of speakers over the years. Our ears are just as GOOD as anybody else. Some of us have better hearing than some of those music people who have subjected their ears to extreme loud detrimental sound.

As we ALL know, it is highly subjective. A few people or studios endorsing some speakers only means they personally subjectively like the speakers, nothing more than that.

I would not debate personal preference or what people like to do with their money. It's all good.

I guess some of us are interested to see if these $30,000 speakers can finally have on-axis and off-axis FR that are better than $300 Infinity P363 that cost 100 times less.

Wow, this thread has officially jumped the shark!

Infinity P363's in the same sentence as the 800 Series just because something may measure better? And you're the one questioning the hearing of informed professionals?

 

[everettT]

I'm sure your taking that to literally. And do we have to refer to them as diamonds? I've heard many speakers that sounded better to me then the 800 series, doesn't mean that they are bad just different. The infinity's measured and sounded better that many speakers costing more, notably the 600 series BWs cost 3x as much. I'd put the Ellis 1801s up against the 805s and many would like the 1801s better. That speaker has been around awhile and still sounds incredible.

Wow, this thread has officially jumped the shark!

Infinity P363's in the same sentence as Diamonds just because something may measure better? And you're the one questioning the hearing of informed professionals?

 

[<eargiant]

I'm sure your taking that to literally. And do we have to refer to them as diamonds? I've heard many speakers that sounded better to me then the 800 series, doesn't mean that they are bad just different. The infinity's measured and sounded better that many speakers costing more, notably the 600 series BWs cost 3x as much. I'd put the Ellis 1801s up against the 805s and many would like the 1801s better. That speaker has been around awhile and still sounds incredible.

I fixed it for you, Diamonds was just easier to type. I don't think I'm taking it too literally, it's OK to not like a speaker. I get that, it's impossible for anyone to like every speaker, but to continually harp on their measurements is a bit much.

I own a set of $300 Philharmonic Audio Affordable Accuracy Monitors that will wipe the floor with those Infinities. They are utterly fantastic compared to the crappy Pioneer BS-22's that they are based on. They have impeccable measurements and sound great to boot. They hit well above their price point. Dennis Murphy is a gifted and talented individual. He really "fixed" those Pioneers.

With that said, I'm under no illusion that the budget AA Monitors are in the same sonic category as the 805D's. I don't say that as a slight in anyway to Dennis. I would have tried his Phil 3's in a heartbeat but they were not going to be the best choice for my intended space.

If I were as fixated on measurements as some are the AA's would be perched on my stands in the main system as opposed to the 805Ds but I'm not. There's more to it than that.

Again, no slight to Dennis - he's a master of his trade. I only brought his AA's into the conversation because they are the least expensive best measuring speakers that I own.

 

[ski2xblack]

You should hear Dennis' more expensive offerings. They'll make you forget all about $30K anything.

 

[<eargiant]

You should hear Dennis' more expensive offerings. They'll make you forget all about $30K anything.

I've not once mentioned price as a determining factor in this discussion, only that perfect measurements are not the end all and be all when it comes to speakers. That's the only point I'm trying to make. If they were, with the help of a good sub a speaker with exceptional measurements like the AA's would also do what you say.

But when the conversation devolves into knocking a line like the 800 Series and comparing their measurements to those of an Infinity Primus it's just too much to take seriously.

Who knew? The flagship of the Steyning Research Establishment was bested by a pair of Infinity Primus.

 

[Defcon]

That doesn't mean anything. We all have been in this hobby for a very long time and have listened to a lot of speakers over the years. Our ears are just as GOOD as anybody else. Some of us have better hearing than some of those music people who have subjected their ears to extreme loud detrimental sound.

As we ALL know, it is highly subjective. A few people or studios endorsing some speakers only means they personally subjectively like the speakers, nothing more than that.

I would not debate personal preference or what people like to do with their money. It's all good.

I guess some of us are interested to see if these $30,000 speakers can finally have on-axis and off-axis FR that are better than $300 Infinity P363 that cost 100 times less.

I'm sad the P363 is discontinued Till last year you could easily find a deal for them, $100 each, which IMO made it one of the best bargains in audio.

 

[Defcon]

Wow, this thread has officially jumped the shark!

Infinity P363's in the same sentence as the 800 Series just because something may measure better? And you're the one questioning the hearing of informed professionals?

Hearing of informed professionals is the same as hearing of anyone else - do you mean opinion? If you can't prove something is better objectively, then all that's left is subjective opinion, and our opinions are very susceptible to bias. There's a reason all the expensive audio gear always fails blind tests. This isn't limited to audio, other fields dependent on dogma and 'wisdom of experts', such as wine, have the same bs.

If someone compared a $200 speaker with a $1000 is that ok? At what point does it cross the line? We all know diminishing returns in audio. Price needs to be thrown out the window when judging performance.

But these discussions tend to denigrate into holy wars because no one can ever agree on anything You could cite countless experiments that prove the so called wine experts can't even tell red from white and no one is ever going to change their opinion.

 

[<eargiant]

Hearing of informed professionals is the same as hearing of anyone else - do you mean opinion? If you can't prove something is better objectively, then all that's left is subjective opinion, and our opinions are very susceptible to bias. There's a reason all the expensive audio gear always fails blind tests. This isn't limited to audio, other fields dependent on dogma and 'wisdom of experts', such as wine, have the same bs.

If someone compared a $200 speaker with a $1000 is that ok? At what point does it cross the line? We all know diminishing returns in audio. Price needs to be thrown out the window when judging performance.

But these discussions tend to denigrate into holy wars because no one can ever agree on anything You could cite countless experiments that prove the so called wine experts can't even tell red from white and no one is ever going to change their opinion.

Why do you guys keep bringing up price? What does price have to do with my point that you can't solely rely on measurements?

The point is that to give speaker measurements the weight that some do as the primary factor in gauging the complete sonic representation of a speaker is a mistake. You can have two different speakers that cost the same, both with near identical perfect measurements and they will NOT sound the same. That is easy to prove.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow, this thread has officially jumped the shark!

Infinity P363's in the same sentence as the 800 Series just because something may measure better? And you're the one questioning the hearing of informed professionals?

You are jumping to conclusions. I merely stated the FACTS, which are OBJECTIVE measurement.

Of course, I would take the 800 series over the P363.

Just like I would take a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes over a Hyundai. But if the Hyundai had better objective measurement (interior noise, braking distance, acceleration, etc.), it would still bother me.

I see no reason why other companies (Revel, KEF, TAD, RBH, Salk/Phil, NHT, Ascend, etc.) can make great sounding speakers that have great on-axis and off-axis FR, but B&W is incapable.

The original B&W 800 Matrix had no problem sounding great with good on-axis and off-axis FR. I would like to see B&W go back to their 800 Matrix roots.

 

[Beave]

You can have two different speakers that cost the same, both with near identical perfect measurements and they will NOT sound the same. That is easy to prove.

Easy to prove? How is it easy to prove when it's not even easy to find two speakers with "near identical perfect measurements?" I get the impression you're still hung up on the idea that speaker measurements consist only of on-axis frequency response, +/- x dB. As explained above, you have to look at off-axis frequency response as well. And different speakers, even with similar on-axis response, often differ wildly in their off-axis response. Then there are other measurements - waterfall, THD, IMD, linearity vs amplitude, etc.

The fact is, there are no speakers with perfect measurements, or anywhere near that. And different designs have different measurements. Once you understand the measurements, a more complete set of them can give a pretty good indication of how a speaker will sound.

 

[<eargiant]

You are jumping to conclusions. I merely stated the FACTS, which are OBJECTIVE measurement.

When you stated this, “I guess some of us are interested to see if these $30,000 speakers can finally have on-axis and off-axis FR that are better than $300 Infinity P363 that cost 100 times less.” I assumed you felt that it was such an important aspect that that alone would make the Infinity’s better designed hence a better sounding, more capable speaker. If not, why even bring it up - what’s the point of dwelling on that?

Do we buy speakers to post their graphs on the wall or to revel in their reproductive capabilities? I chose the latter.

Of course, I would take the 800 series over the P363.

Just like I would take a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes over a Hyundai. But if the Hyundai had better objective measurement (interior noise, braking distance, acceleration, etc.), it would still bother me.

That implies that you would “take” them for status and luxury, not performance. I wouldn’t.

I don’t really see a correlation with your analogy. Either way, it wouldn’t bother me one bit if the Hyundai excelled in some measurements especially if as a whole it gave me a horrible driving experience compared to the “Lexus, BMW, Mercedes”.

I see no reason why other companies (Revel, KEF, TAD, RBH, Salk/Phil, NHT, Ascend, etc.) can make great sounding speakers that have great on-axis and off-axis FR, but B&W is incapable.

It still doesn’t matter because those brands sound just as different from each other as they do from the 800 Series. I like some of the brands you mention and am not a fan of others. Their on/off axis measurements did not change my opinion.

As for B&W being “incapable”, I highly doubt that. I'm sure you misspoke. I'd say it's more of a choice on their part.

The original B&W 800 Matrix had no problem sounding great with good on-axis and off-axis FR. I would like to see B&W go back to their 800 Matrix roots.

Who knows, maybe they're on to something over there at SRE and there’s good reason why they don’t anymore. While the Matrix sounded great, I’m with Dr. Waldrep (and many others) on this one, The 800 D series is much, much better.

Easy to prove? How is it easy to prove when it's not even easy to find two speakers with "near identical perfect measurements?" I get the impression you're still hung up on the idea that speaker measurements consist only of on-axis frequency response, +/- x dB. As explained above, you have to look at off-axis frequency response as well. And different speakers, even with similar on-axis response, often differ wildly in their off-axis response. Then there are other measurements - waterfall, THD, IMD, linearity vs amplitude, etc.


The fact is, there are no speakers with perfect measurements, or anywhere near that. And different designs have different measurements. Once you understand the measurements, a more complete set of them can give a pretty good indication of how a speaker will sound.

I’m not hung up on anything related to speaker measurements. Far from it.

You’re actually making my point for me in a roundabout way. Isn’t it a bit like Whack-A-Mole? One can knock this speakers off-axis FR, that speakers disturbing waterfall and goodness have you seen the THD on those over there! Where does it end? None of these measurements individually will tell you how a speaker will sound. If it were that easy all of the guys that adhere and demand the best measuring speakers would all own the same speakers wouldn’t they?

I always trust my ears to tell me what I'm hearing. If you have a moment, read through this brief thread (you can start on post #9).

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/plugging-ported-speakers-what-does-the-amp-see.104189/
EDIT: ha-sorry, I just realized you were in that thread.

It may be true in many cases that “Once you understand the measurements, a more complete set of them can give a pretty good indication of how a speaker will sound” but IMO another thing that can give you an even better indication of how a speaker will sound is actually listening to them.

But what do I know, after all I'm less than (<) an ear giant. Peace everyone, I'm going to go sit in the sweet spot and marvel as the 805D's remove that pane of glass!

 

[Beave]

You’re actually making my point for me in a roundabout way. Isn’t it a bit like Whack-A-Mole? One can knock this speakers off-axis FR, that speakers disturbing waterfall and goodness have you seen the THD on those over there! Where does it end? None of these measurements individually will tell you how a speaker will sound. If it were that easy all of the guys that adhere and demand the best measuring speakers would all own the same speakers wouldn’t they?

Of course none of those measurements individually will tell you how a speaker will sound. Nobody who understands speakers would say that. That's why we've been trying to make it clear that several measurements are needed, at a minimum, to get a general idea. It's like describing a person's size. If I just give you the height, it tells you a little but not much. If I add in the weight to the height, now you have a somewhat better idea, but you still can't really picture the person. But if I give the height, weight, and also the waist size, chest size, shoulder size, neck size, head size, hair color, etc, you can get a decent idea of what the person looks like, even without seeing them.

As for people all owning the same speakers if they adhered to measurements, show me a speaker that is the "best" at all the measurements at once. I've seen some with excellent on axis response but poor off axis. Or really good on and off axis but mediocre waterfall or THD or linearity. They all have tradeoffs, and pros and cons. And if a speaker was the best at all of those, it probably is out of the budget for most people. And that's not even to mention that even if one speaker measured best in all areas, people still might hate the looks. And that matters, more than many people are willing to admit.

I always trust my ears to tell me what I'm hearing. If you have a moment, read through this brief thread (you can start on post #9).

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/plugging-ported-speakers-what-does-the-amp-see.104189/
EDIT: ha-sorry, I just realized you were in that thread.

It may be true in many cases that “Once you understand the measurements, a more complete set of them can give a pretty good indication of how a speaker will sound” but IMO another thing that can give you an even better indication of how a speaker will sound is actually listening to them.

Well, if I could listen to every speaker out there and use that, and that alone, to make my choices, that would be great. Of course I mean listening to those speakers long term, and in my room. It's kind of unrealistic, is it not? But if you understand the measurements, you can start to narrow down the selection by dismissing those that measure poorly, without needing to hear them.

Also, your ears often miss problems with speakers unless you have the opportunity to live with them for a while. One or two hour listening sessions at a dealer's acoustically treated room is often insufficient to key in on a problem area with a speaker. So you buy it, then after a few months realize something abotu the speaker bugs you. You find a set of measurements and, lo and behold, right there is the a graph indicating that what you hear was measured by somebody.

 

[<eargiant]

Of course none of those measurements individually will tell you how a speaker will sound. Nobody who understands speakers would say that. That's why we've been trying to make it clear that several measurements are needed, at a minimum, to get a general idea. It's like describing a person's size. If I just give you the height, it tells you a little but not much. If I add in the weight to the height, now you have a somewhat better idea, but you still can't really picture the person. But if I give the height, weight, and also the waist size, chest size, shoulder size, neck size, head size, hair color, etc, you can get a decent idea of what the person looks like, even without seeing them.

As for people all owning the same speakers if they adhered to measurements, show me a speaker that is the "best" at all the measurements at once. I've seen some with excellent on axis response but poor off axis. Or really good on and off axis but mediocre waterfall or THD or linearity. They all have tradeoffs, and pros and cons. And if a speaker was the best at all of those, it probably is out of the budget for most people. And that's not even to mention that even if one speaker measured best in all areas, people still might hate the looks. And that matters, more than many people are willing to admit.

I think we're on the same page here 100%. That's exactly what I've been getting at. The point is, how does one know that the speaker with the fat neck is the one they are really going to hate as opposed to the one with the narrower shoulder size especially since all of the other physical features are variable and will ultimately affect the overall physical appearance of a person?

As I've said several times, IMO it would be foolish to knock a speaker because of a few individual measurements as has been done on this thread several times. That is shortsighted in my opinion.

Well, if I could listen to every speaker out there and use that, and that alone, to make my choices, that would be great. Of course I mean listening to those speakers long term, and in my room. It's kind of unrealistic, is it not? But if you understand the measurements, you can start to narrow down the selection by dismissing those that measure poorly, without needing to hear them.

Also, your ears often miss problems with speakers unless you have the opportunity to live with them for a while. One or two hour listening sessions at a dealer's acoustically treated room is often insufficient to key in on a problem area with a speaker. So you buy it, then after a few months realize something aboyu the speaker bugs you. You find a set of measurements and, lo and behold, right there is the a graph indicating that what you hear was measured by somebody.

All true, but as we saw in the thread I linked not all graphs/measurements are equal, not even when conducted by the same professional. In addition, even the individual that initially brought up the graphs in post #9 and what he hated about speakers with "that type of response" was incorrect as pointed out by Dennis (based on how JA measures). And what about when the measurement is incorrect or clearly misleading as in the graph I posted on that thread? Someone reading JA's graph in post #10 might have incorrectly assumed that those speakers had a super flat or recessed low end.

Again, I'm not saying that measurements are useless. Quite the contrary, they are quite valuable. I'm just not one to rule out the overall looks of a woman just because someone keeps harping on one or two of her measurements saying that her neck is to short and her arms are too long. Overall, she may be extremely attractive or beyond hideous but I won't know for sure until I actually see her.

Someone reading this thread might pass on giving the 800 Series (or many other fine speakers) a serious listen because they read that they did not have a good off-axis FR. That would be a shame because they'd be missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Defcon]

Why do you guys keep bringing up price? What does price have to do with my point that you can't solely rely on measurements?

The point is that to give speaker measurements the weight that some do as the primary factor in gauging the complete sonic representation of a speaker is a mistake. You can have two different speakers that cost the same, both with near identical perfect measurements and they will NOT sound the same. That is easy to prove.

What is the 'proof' here - that a listener says they sound different? Or is there a better definition of proof?

Please give an example of speakers that cost about the same and with identical measurement that sound different.

 

[<eargiant]

What is the 'proof' here - that a listener says they sound different? Or is there a better definition of proof?

Please give an example of speakers that cost about the same and with identical measurement that sound different.

The proof only comes when you hear it for yourself. If I give you an example will you be willing to buy both sets so that you can hear it for yourself?

 

[shadyJ]

What is the 'proof' here - that a listener says they sound different? Or is there a better definition of proof?

Please give an example of speakers that cost about the same and with identical measurement that sound different.

Are there any examples of high-end speakers that have identical measurements at all? I wouldn't think so.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I used to own many speakers concurrently. Another forum member currently also owns many speakers. We were discussing this topic of how all these speakers sound.

And our conclusion was the same - that great speakers sound more alike (especially in the treble and midrange) than not, and they don't need to have identical measurement to sound more alike than not, and unless you have actually owned many speakers at the same time in the same house, you won't know what we're talking about.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The proof only comes when you hear it for yourself. If I give you an example will you be willing to buy both sets so that you can hear it for yourself?

The proof comes when you have ACTUALLY LIVED with all the speakers AT THE SAME TIME for OVER A YEAR and have access to LEVEL-MATCHING & INSTANT SWITCHING system.

I've owned at the SAME TIME IN MY HOUSE for OVER A YEAR:
1. Revel Salon2
2. B&W 802 D2
3. KEF Reference 201/2
4. Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1
5. Philharmonic 3
6. TAD 2201
7. ATC monitor (forgot model#)
8. Dynaudio tower (forgot model#)
9. Focal tower (forgot model#)
10. Had other speakers (Funk Audio, NHT, some others I can't remember now) at the same time as well.

 

[Defcon]

The proof only comes when you hear it for yourself. If I give you an example will you be willing to buy both sets so that you can hear it for yourself?

So you are saying audio is 100% subjective?
Would you be willing to listen to 2 sets of speakers in a blind test and declare which one is better and have it match the result in a non-blind evaluation?

The above test has been done countless times, every single time non-blind reveals massive listener bias based on price/appearance/brand.

The idea that 'proof only comes when you hear it yourself' is totally ridiculous, that isn't proof, its the very definition of personal bias.

 

[<eargiant]

The proof comes when you have ACTUALLY LIVED with all the speakers AT THE SAME TIME for OVER A YEAR and have access to LEVEL-MATCHING & INSTANT SWITCHING system.

Aside from the additional detail (which I agree with although I don't think it takes a year) and you raising your on-line voice with caps & red bold,

exactly how is that different from what I said here:

The proof only comes when you hear it for yourself. If I give you an example will you be willing to buy both sets so that you can hear it for yourself?

So you are saying audio is 100% subjective?
Would you be willing to listen to 2 sets of speakers in a blind test and declare which one is better and have it match the result in a non-blind evaluation?

The above test has been done countless times, every single time non-blind reveals massive listener bias based on price/appearance/brand.

The idea that 'proof only comes when you hear it yourself' is totally ridiculous, that isn't proof, its the very definition of personal bias.

It's not about declaring which one is better, simply detecting that they sound different. Please carefully re-read my comment that you quoted in post #54.

If you guys want to continue with this conversation, at this point it might be a good idea if we start another thread because this thread is about Bowers & Wilkins new and IMO exceptional 800 series.