Bowers & Wilkins 50th Anniversary and 800 D3 Speakers Unveiled

[gene]

My visit to Bowers & Wilkins to commemorate their 50th anniversary really energized my enthusiasm for the company. I sensed great energy and pride from the employees and top execs that work there which is rare these days in the corporate world.

We got a chance to listen and examine their new flagship Diamond 800 D3 speakers and tour their facility to get a great historical perspective of the company and the direction they are going after the recent EVA Automation acquisition.

Read: Bowers & Wilkins 50th Anniversary and 800 D3 Speakers Unveiled

 

[<eargiant]

Thanks for the write-up, glad to hear you were enthused. I have 805 D2's like those pictured in the BSO DGG Recording Studio except that I run them with a REL S/2 sub.

I love these speakers. Only after listening at home to recording after recording that I was familiar with, did I come to truly appreciate how good they are (the REL S/2 is also wonderful, a great match).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How did they achieve 15Hz @ -3dB with dual 10" woofers?

And did you ask them at what SPL was the 15Hz?

Will they be sending you a pair of 800D3 to measure and test independently?

 

[TLS Guy]

How did they achieve 15Hz @ -3dB with dual 10" woofers?

And did you ask them at what SPL was the 15Hz?

Will they be sending you a pair of 800D3 to measure and test independently?

The bass extension of a driver has little or nothing to do with bass extension. It is the T/S parameters especially Fs.

Two 10" drivers have the same cone area as one 15" driver. So with a pair of speakers that is the same as two subs with 15" drivers.

Now if the Fs of those drivers is 20 Hz or a little below -3db at 15 Hz is certainly possible.

In my lines the 10" drivers have an Fs of 20 Hz. The T/S parameters are optimal for TL loading.

As you know my speakers are only just starting to roll off at 20 Hz. Since they are TL roll off is only 12 db per octave and not 24db like a standard ported enclosure. So I get deep extended bass of very high quality since Q is low. The overall performance is far better then any sub I have encountered. They system is also totally integrated by design which I feel does confer an advantage.

However I think the real strength of this 800 D3 is the very extended range mid driver.

By far the biggest limitation of the vast majority of speakers is limited driver bandwidth in my view.

Drivers with a bandwidth of 200 Hz to 5 KHz need to be common and NOT rare. This allows crossover of a mid range to be around 400 HZ to 4 KHz. In a three way system there is little advantage and a lot of disadvantage over a two way.

B & W are doing exactly what is required to improve the state of the art. Hopefully they will introduce an active version of that speaker. In addition to improving performance this will allow for the blending in of the LFE signal to the bass amps and speakers. This would complete a state of the art design in the HT era.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

B & W are doing exactly what is required to improve the state of the art.

I think that remains to be seen until we see actual measurements.

If the on & off-axis FR look exactly like the 800D1 & 800D2, then B&W hasn't done anything to improve the state of the art. We will see.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think that remains to be seen until we see actual measurements.

If the on & off-axis FR look exactly like the 800D1 & 800D2, then B&W hasn't done anything to improve the state of the art. We will see.

Yes, we will have to wait for measurements. I suspect the move away from Kevlar will be positive. Kevlar is far from ideal.

But wide band drivers are possible and have been around for over half a century.

As I have pointed out this 4" driver is very smooth from the 40 Hz region to 20 KHz, and does not beam in the least. In fact it has a broad smooth sound field. It was first demonstrated in 1959. I have lived with these for years and they have taught me that 99.9% of driver design in the last half century or more has been wrong headed.

I have been listening to a pair of these in a small sitting room at our Eagan place. They provide a very pleasant listening experience indeed.

 

[shadyJ]

One interesting thing I read about the new B&W Diamond speakers is they use Steallus X driver technology. It is much less efficient and needs a lot more permanent magnet, but it gets rid of things like induction and flux modulation. That is ideal for making them into very wide-band drivers, and also extremely linear. I know it will never happen, but I would love to see a Steallus subwoofer from B&W to see how it measures.

 

[gene]

How did they achieve 15Hz @ -3dB with dual 10" woofers?

And did you ask them at what SPL was the 15Hz?

Will they be sending you a pair of 800D3 to measure and test independently?

No their specs aren't very revealing. They did say the 800 D3s are capable of 120dB output at 1 meter I believe but again no qualification of bandwidth or distortion. They want us to review the 800 D3s but I won't be taken that on. I may send them to one of my guys and review the 805s instead. I'm tired of big heavy boxes

 

[Patrick Butler]

Gene, you looked like you're in pretty good shape when I saw you last week. 211 lb won't hurt for long.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

No their specs aren't very revealing. They did say the 800 D3s are capable of 120dB output at 1 meter I believe but again no qualification of bandwidth or distortion. They want us to review the 800 D3s but I won't be taken that on. I may send them to one of my guys and review the 805s instead. I'm tired of big heavy boxes

 

[<eargiant]

How did they achieve 15Hz @ -3dB with dual 10" woofers?

And did you ask them at what SPL was the 15Hz?

Will they be sending you a pair of 800D3 to measure and test independently?

What spec or graph would one look at if they want to see if a speaker can "remove the pane of glass between the performance and the listener" ? Is that attribute even measurable?

The Diamonds can do that like few speakers can.

 

[gene]

Gene, you looked like you're in pretty good shape when I saw you last week. 211 lb won't hurt for long.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

Hi Patrick; It's carrying up 2 flights of steps with herniated discs that gives me pause

 

[Patrick Butler]

Having hauled these up two flights of stairs, I completely understand. In full disclosure- I had help. Lots of help.

Patrick

Hi Patrick; It's carrying up 2 flights of steps with herniated discs that gives me pause

 

[fuzz092888]

I'd be more than happy to review those for you, Gene. I could put them right next to the Phil 3's and have a little shootout. Even invite Steve over for a peer review.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What spec or graph would one look at if they want to see if a speaker can "remove the pane of glass between the performance and the listener" ? Is that attribute even measurable?

The Diamonds can do that like few speakers can.

A lot of big speakers can do that. It's not magic. I have heard the 800D1 & 800D2 a few times. No big deal.

In terms of bass and SPL, the 800D1 & 800D2 are no match for the other monster towers of power that Audiioholics recently discussed. Is the 800D3 much different?

They claim the 800D3 and go down to 15HZ, but at what SPL and distortion level? For example, 15Hz at 80dB & 1% THD, etc.

Big difference between 120dB vs 80dB SPL.

 

[PENG]

A lot of big speakers can do that. It's not magic. I have heard the 800D1 & 800D2 a few times. No big deal.

In terms of bass and SPL, the 800D1 & 800D2 are no match for the other monster towers of power that Audiioholics recently discussed. Is the 800D3 much different?

They claim the 800D3 and go down to 15HZ, but at what SPL and distortion level? For example, 15Hz at 80dB & 1% THD, etc.

Big difference between 120dB vs 80dB SPL.

I am sure they can handle 120 dB max peaks. If you need more, your room will probably be big enough for two pairs or more, or get the biggest monster Klipsch's.

 

[<eargiant]

A lot of big speakers can do that. It's not magic. I have heard the 800D1 & 800D2 a few times. No big deal.

In terms of bass and SPL, the 800D1 & 800D2 are no match for the other monster towers of power that Audiioholics recently discussed. Is the 800D3 much different?

They claim the 800D3 and go down to 15HZ, but at what SPL and distortion level? For example, 15Hz at 80dB & 1% THD, etc.

Big difference between 120dB vs 80dB SPL.

The point is that you can't look at a graph or spec to determine the transparency of a speaker. For that, I trust my ears and don't get bogged down with published graphs.

I disagree that "a lot" of speakers can do that. No way. When I was last shopping, I auditioned many, many well regarded stand-mounts. Nothing came close to the smoothness and transparency I was hearing from the 805 D2's. Some of the models that are vaunted for their transparency sounded muffled in direct comparison to the D's. This is the kind of speaker that after taking it home and listening to it for an extended period of time, everything else is a let down. At least to me.

I suspect we are listening for (or looking at) different things.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I disagree that "a lot" of speakers can do that. No way. When I was last shopping, I auditioned many, many well regarded stand-mounts. Nothing came close to the smoothness and transparency I was hearing from the 805 D2's. Some of the models that are vaunted for their transparency sounded muffled in direct comparison to the D's.

That's the thing with B&Ws, you either like that upper midrange brightness, and you clearly do, or you don't. On the 800D2s and the 802D2s it is a coloration. I haven't heard the 805s.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The point is that you can't look at a graph or spec to determine the transparency of a speaker. For that, I trust my ears and don't get bogged down with published graphs.

I disagree that "a lot" of speakers can do that. No way. When I was last shopping, I auditioned many, many well regarded stand-mounts. Nothing came close to the smoothness and transparency I was hearing from the 805 D2's. Some of the models that are vaunted for their transparency sounded muffled in direct comparison to the D's. This is the kind of speaker that after taking it home and listening to it for an extended period of time, everything else is a let down. At least to me.

I suspect we are listening for (or looking at) different things.

Hmm, yeah, actually graphs do tell you if a speaker is accurate and smooth.

Did you audition all those speakers INSIDE YOUR HOUSE using the SAME system?

I didn't think so.

Huge difference between listening to a speaker for a few years inside your house vs a few minutes in a STORE.

But yes, I do agree that your subjective opinion is salient in the end.

It comes down to whether people think the speakers are worth the money ($30K/pr).

Some people think the speakers are worth it. Some people (who have owned B&W 800 & 802) think the speakers are NOT worth anywhere near the asking price.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am sure they can handle 120 dB max peaks. If you need more, your room will probably be big enough for two pairs or more, or get the biggest monster Klipsch's.

The spec says it can play down to 15Hz.

I'm asking if it can play 15Hz @ 120dB & 1% THD?

Or is the 15Hz more like @ 75dB?

In addition, I wouldn't be so sure that the speaker can handle 120dB SPL. When I bought the 802D2, the dealer told me there were customers who blew the diamond tweeters at high volume.

Diamond tweeters are quite brittle and fragile. In fact, when they delivered my 802s the first time, they broke one of the diamond tweeters.

 

[<eargiant]

Hmm, yeah, actually graphs do tell you if a speaker is accurate and smooth.

That is not what I asked. I said Transparency. How can you see that on a graph?

Did you audition all those speakers INSIDE YOUR HOUSE using the SAME system?

I didn't think so.

Not all of course, but several. Same result. I actually still own two others that by most accounts fall into the the "transparent" category and the Diamonds outclass them both. The third set I had has already been sold off. I've also had speakers that had ruler flat response graphs that were nowhere near as transparent (or even accurate sounding) as the Diamonds. Go figure.

Huge difference between listening to a speaker for a few years inside your house vs a few minutes in a STORE.

Of course.

All speakers are room dependent. Regardless, if you know what you are looking for a store audition can easily rule out speakers that do not satisfy your requirements. The Diamonds sound better to me at home than other speakers I currently own or have owned just as they do when I compare them to the same speakers at the retailer. Bottom line is that a thick sounding speaker won't suddenly sound clear when I bring it home, a boxy sounding speaker won't suddenly open up or vice-versa. Conversely, the speakers I do have don't completely change their overall presentation when I hear them in a retailers set-up.

But yes, I do agree that your subjective opinion is salient in the end.

Yes, you don't like the Diamonds. I love them. Let's leave it at that.

I just hope your disdain for them is not because of the graph and it's actually because you don't like the way they sound. I say that because you seem to dwell on graphs, specs and cost.

It comes down to whether people think the speakers are worth the money ($30K/pr).

Some people think the speakers are worth it. Some people (who have owned B&W 800 & 802) think the speakers are NOT worth anywhere near the asking price.

No it doesn't. I didn't think that this thread was about cost.

In my case I felt the 805D2's were worth every penny and I auditioned stand-mounts that were even more expensive. But again, my initial comments had nothing to do with cost - only that holding graphs and specs as gospel (when it comes to speakers) can be shortsighted. Especially when it comes to what I feel is a world class speaker like the Diamonds.