Borrow/Rent Audio Equipment (San Jose)

[red_kk]

WAF can be handled a couple ways, particularly custom/diy. Is the wife wanting the look of the Rel over something else? The end table thing for the couch may work out well enough for his seat....and Sparkus doesn't sound all that familiar altho the situation is repeated periodically.

I can understand where Sparkus was coming from. There is a school of thought on the internet that throwing more wattage to the tower speakers would improve the bass response. Now after doing more reading i know better. A sub is going to be my first upgrade before anything else. Wifey doesn't like any other speaker box especially the subwoofer and I can understand her. The end table beside the couch (although not ideal location) sounds like an only option now. In any case, i'm holding off on upgrades for now and just focus on enjoying and discovering new music.

Also please help me understand one thing regarding subs: My current crossover is at 50Hz so when I add a sub the cross over would probably change to 80Hz and I would tap in the L/R hi-level connections from receiver and feed them into the sub. For movies we would connect the LFE channel from the receiver.
Now how does the receiver know sub exists in Pure-Direct mode I use for music? I'm asking because I think sub does two things
1. improve bass response on lower octaves from 80-20Hz area
2. Offload the receiver's power required to drive the main speakers in mid bass area thereby improving the performance of the towers themselves

I'm not sure how true #2 is, as this would mean the receiver somehow has to figure out there is a sub.

 

[Pogre]

I can understand where Sparkus was coming from. There is a school of thought on the internet that throwing more wattage to the tower speakers would improve the bass response. Now after doing more reading i know better. A sub is going to be my first upgrade before anything else. Wifey doesn't like any other speaker box especially the subwoofer and I can understand her. The end table beside the couch (although not ideal location) sounds like an only option now. In any case, i'm holding off on upgrades for now and just focus on enjoying and discovering new music.

Also please help me understand one thing regarding subs: My current crossover is at 50Hz so when I add a sub the cross over would probably change to 80Hz and I would tap in the L/R hi-level connections from receiver and feed them into the sub. For movies we would connect the LFE channel from the receiver.
Now how does the receiver know sub exists in Pure-Direct mode I use for music? I'm asking because I think sub does two things
1. improve bass response on lower octaves from 80-20Hz area
2. Offload the receiver's power required to drive the main speakers in mid bass area thereby improving the performance of the towers themselves

I'm not sure how true #2 is, as this would mean the receiver somehow has to figure out there is a sub.

You have a crossover set right now? Unless you already have a sub you should be playing your speakers full range with no crossover.

I wouldn't use high level connections and only use LFE unless you have no choice. LFE signal (.1 ) only applies to 5.1 material. For 2.0 music the crossover just directs all frequencies below the crossover setting to your subs. General rule of thumb for setting a crossover is double your speakers' f3, 46 hz in your case so 90 hz would be recommended, but I think 80 would work just fine as well. Don't overthink it. The high level connections on subs are to me, only there for those who don't have bass management (LFE Out, crossover settings).

1. Yes
2. Also yes. That has been my experience.

 

[Pogre]

I'm not sure how true #2 is, as this would mean the receiver somehow has to figure out there is a sub.

The small setting with a crossover using LFE out is how your receiver knows there's a sub.

 

[red_kk]

Thanks @Pogre for sharing all your knowledge.
The crossover of 50Hz was set by the Bestbuy guy who did the calibration. The MCACC set it to 100Hz and he lowered it to 50. I'll remove it as you suggested and see what happens.

Basically this is the extent of calibration he did for my room size of 15x15
1. Set all EQ all frequencies to zero or neutral. Suggested to play music in Pure Direct mode.
2. Crossover to 50Hz
3. set the distances to 13 feet on L and R (however actual distance measured by tape is 11 feet), 18 feet for C. He said something about the distances affecting delays when AVR is processing for movies.
4. L -4dB, R -4dB, C +1.5dB

 

[lovinthehd]

I can understand where Sparkus was coming from. There is a school of thought on the internet that throwing more wattage to the tower speakers would improve the bass response. Now after doing more reading i know better. A sub is going to be my first upgrade before anything else. Wifey doesn't like any other speaker box especially the subwoofer and I can understand her. The end table beside the couch (although not ideal location) sounds like an only option now. In any case, i'm holding off on upgrades for now and just focus on enjoying and discovering new music.

Also please help me understand one thing regarding subs: My current crossover is at 50Hz so when I add a sub the cross over would probably change to 80Hz and I would tap in the L/R hi-level connections from receiver and feed them into the sub. For movies we would connect the LFE channel from the receiver.
Now how does the receiver know sub exists in Pure-Direct mode I use for music? I'm asking because I think sub does two things
1. improve bass response on lower octaves from 80-20Hz area
2. Offload the receiver's power required to drive the main speakers in mid bass area thereby improving the performance of the towers themselves

I'm not sure how true #2 is, as this would mean the receiver somehow has to figure out there is a sub.

Well, you are throwing more wattage to the woofers in a sense with a sub WAF and subs can be a tough combo.

I'm with @Pogre on running your sub via the pre-out on the avr, why would you want to use high level connections instead let alone trying to do both simultaneously? 80 hz is a good starting point for xover, tho.

 

[Pogre]

I forget which receiver you have, did you try to run the setup routine? I personally do not prefer direct for my music. A crossover with no subwoofer makes no sense to me either. Are your speakers set to large or small? If they are set to small and a crossover of 50 Hz is in place, then your deep bass is being filtered out altogether.

If I were in your boat, I would start off by running whatever set up routine your avr is capable of and go from there. You can still use pure direct, and the setup routine should take care of all of your distances/delays.

 

[red_kk]

I have a Pioneer VSX 1021-k, I did run MCACC auto calibration and the speakers sounded horrible in all processing modes and in pure direct too. Also auto calibration set the crossover to 100Hz

I just checked and see that the speakers are set to large with crossover of 50Hz coz that is the lowest. There is no way to set it to zero or turn it off. There is no subwoofer so may be the AVR is sending all frequencies to the L/R channels, there is no way to find out.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have a Pioneer VSX 1021-k, I did run MCACC auto calibration and the speakers sounded horrible in all processing modes and in pure direct too. Also auto calibration set the crossover to 100Hz

I just checked and see that the speakers are set to large with crossover of 50Hz coz that is the lowest. There is no way to set it to zero or turn it off. There is no subwoofer so may be the AVR is sending all frequencies to the L/R channels, there is no way to find out.

Been a while since I had my Pioneer avr from that series....if set to large then the crossover would only matter with a double-bass type setting which looks to be called "Plus" in your subwoofer setup.

 

[Pogre]

I have a Pioneer VSX 1021-k, I did run MCACC auto calibration and the speakers sounded horrible in all processing modes and in pure direct too...

Something is not adding up here. Changing the distance setting should not really affect much in pure direct for music. All you're doing is changing the distance, which does affect delay, but that becomes more noticeable in 5.1, with a sub in the mix. For 2 channel music listening I don't think there would be much (if any) difference just changing distance settings.

I just checked and see that the speakers are set to large with crossover of 50Hz coz that is the lowest. There is no way to set it to zero or turn it off. There is no subwoofer so may be the AVR is sending all frequencies to the L/R channels, there is no way to find out.

I'm not familiar with MCACC but I believe in general the large speaker setting bypasses the crossover filter and sends a full range signal to your speakers, which is what you want if you don't have a sub.

 

[red_kk]

Something is not adding up here. Changing the distance setting should not really affect much in pure direct for music.

I think this is more for movies so dialogue can be heard clearly in action scenes. He played a scene over and over from 'The Witcher' first episode with both action and dialogues and chose these settings.

 

[lovinthehd]

Who is "he"?

 

[Pogre]

I think this is more for movies so dialogue can be heard clearly in action scenes. He played a scene over and over from 'The Witcher' first episode with both action and dialogues and chose these settings.

That makes a little bit more sense, though ime distance settings really come into play the most when a sub and dsp are involved. This is not my strongest area of knowledge tho and it can get complicated. I've had Denon or Marantz receivers for the last decade or so and have learned to trust the distance settings. They don't always align with the actual measured distance, especially for subwoofers. My avr adds 5 feet to my subs to allow for the additional time involved for DSP processing.

 

[Pogre]

Who is "he"?

Best Buy employee who volunteered to help him set everything up when he voiced dissatisfaction with performance.

 

[lovinthehd]

Best Buy employee who volunteered to help him set everything up when he voiced dissatisfaction with performance.

Missed that one, gonna have to reread some posts it seems. Last person I'd ask for help is a BB employee!

 

[Pogre]

Missed that one, gonna have to reread some posts it seems. Last person I'd ask for help is a BB employee!

He mentioned it in his other thread. It only stuck in my head because I quoted him and commented about a BB employee going above and beyond.

 

[red_kk]

He is the best employee of Best Buy, he actually offered me to help with setup when I was auditioning the speakers. I stopped by the store twice and spent around 30 mins each time to audition and he was patient all the time and went through many tracks across all genres with and without subwoofers, played them on all speakers they had on display. B&W, Martin Logan, KEFs etc. He is a bass guitarist so he must have good ears especially for bass. He used a Marantz high end receiver limited to 50W due to building/room codes and he used the REL T9i subwoofer. Only one subwoofer placed to the side of the room. (much bigger room than mine)

I didn't noticed any difference at all when he turned the sub on and off with several songs. Finally he played a bass heavy Drake song and I noticed difference on the lower octave side but I had to really pay attention to hear it. That is why i wasn't too keen on subs when I bought the speakers.

 

[Pogre]

Hey @red_kk, I just wanna say that it's clear to me you're following up on our advice, looking at different resources and asking good questions. To me that shows you really care and are open to suggestions, so you get props from me for that. You're taking your time, not rushing it and doing the homework. Mistakes are expensive with this hobby. I wish more people took this approach and didn't stick so stubbornly to bad ideas.

 

[lovinthehd]

He is the best employee of Best Buy, he actually offered me to help with setup when I was auditioning the speakers. I stopped by the store twice and spent around 30 mins each time to audition and he was patient all the time and went through many tracks across all genres with and without subwoofers, played them on all speakers they had on display. B&W, Martin Logan, KEFs etc. He is a bass guitarist so he must have good ears especially for bass. He used a Marantz high end receiver limited to 50W due to building/room codes and he used the REL T9i subwoofer. Only one subwoofer placed to the side of the room. (much bigger room than mine)

I didn't noticed any difference at all when he turned the sub on and off with several songs. Finally he played a bass heavy Drake song and I noticed difference on the lower octave side but I had to really pay attention to hear it. That is why i wasn't too keen on subs when I bought the speakers.

He told you he used the slimline Marantz avr because of building/room codes? LOL. He may be a nice guy but....

 

[Pogre]

He is the best employee of Best Buy, he actually offered me to help with setup when I was auditioning the speakers. I stopped by the store twice and spent around 30 mins each time to audition and he was patient all the time and went through many tracks across all genres with and without subwoofers, played them on all speakers they had on display. B&W, Martin Logan, KEFs etc. He is a bass guitarist so he must have good ears especially for bass. He used a Marantz high end receiver limited to 50W due to building/room codes and he used the REL T9i subwoofer. Only one subwoofer placed to the side of the room. (much bigger room than mine)

I didn't noticed any difference at all when he turned the sub on and off with several songs. Finally he played a bass heavy Drake song and I noticed difference on the lower octave side but I had to really pay attention to hear it. That is why i wasn't too keen on subs when I bought the speakers.

Hey, I think it was nice of him to go out of his way. Now how good he is at it we don't know, but I believe you when you say he made improvements.

When you hear a good, properly integrated subwoofer you'll get it. Once you hear it done right you won't want to go without again. It's not just about boom, thunder and shaking the walls. It's all in how you set them up. When I listen to music on my system it's difficult to tell I even have the subs on. They don't stand out or get in the way at all, and you don't really notice until I turn them off. Then you can tell something is missing and my music sounds a bit anemic, sound familiar? For my music they're only there for subtle support to add weight, texture and detail. They only rattle the walls and boom when I want them to, and they do that well too!

I swear even my soundstage opens up a little with my subs in play. It's like a weight is taken off the speakers and carried by the subs. <-- This last part is debatable, but don't discount the enjoyment factor placebo effect provides too!

 

[red_kk]

Thanks @Pogre I agree from last 4 weeks of research I realized this hobby is so expensive and most people do weird things that don't make sense to me like bi wiring and spending lot of money on streamers alone and say there is a noticeable improvement in sound quality by switching to a better streamer. I just don't get it.

I don't want to make same mistake I did 10yrs ago when I walked into the store and bought Bose acoustimass system and hated it ever since. I want to take time now and make all necessary upgrades and call it done for next 10 yrs.