Born To Run (extremely long post, but fascinating to me)

[Alex2507]

Yes, it was a great read. Much better than reading the weekly installment of "should I bi-wire my speakers?".

Funny you should mention that because right now we got one on tri-wiring speakers.

I took a look at those Vibram things ... well ... let's just say
that Rick and Doug are gonna be all over that.

I spent the first part of my life bare foot. When we got to New York City people acted like maybe I didn't own shoes since I wasn't wearing them. I was 5. My sister was 12 and I remember her chasing somebody down to beat their @ss ... she was carrying her shoes in her hands ... probably wanted to used them as weapons.

 

[GO-NAD!]

...I spent the first part of my life bare foot. When we got to New York City people acted like maybe I didn't own shoes since I wasn't wearing them. I was 5. My sister was 12 and I remember her chasing somebody down to beat their @ss ... she was carrying her shoes in her hands ... probably wanted to used them as weapons.

At first read, I thought "how odd". Then, it occurred to me that I've never seen a monkey wearing shoes. So, I guess it isn't so odd after all.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I run about 90 Km/month - slowly. My primary motivation is to keep from turning into a beachball. I started about 12 years ago, when I realized that I had to do something to get back in shape. Plus, like Alex, I love to eat. Those calories have to go somewhere...

The thought of running barefoot scares the cr*p outta me! How do they avoid shredding the bottoms of their feet? They must build up a wicked layer of callus to be able to do it.

 

[Alex2507]

They must build up a wicked layer of callus to be able to do it.

When I was 8 we moved to FL and I was able to go back to being barefoot a good portion of the time. At first the heat from the road was a problem but it didn't take long for it not to be an issue. Your feet toughen up pretty quickly.

One thing about how 200K years ago man ran down animals barefoot that hasn't been mentioned is that these were some seriously underfed, light weight, short lifespan kind of people. That lifestyle didn't help them. They would have been much better of with a rifle and some Adidas.

Regarding running in general I think of this nature show that I saw. It said you could measure a Bumble Bee's life span by wing beats. I always took it to mean that stuff wears out ... like knees for us ... think of soccer players, after the ripe old age of 23 they are always crying about their knees. Of course I'm not saying that sitting in a Lazy-Boy eating Ding Dings is the answer but I wonder if a conservation of wing beats might be in order here. We need these parts to last much longer than early humans did. Maybe Bumble Bees would live longer if every wing beat wasn't at the speed of light ... like slow that sh!t down, you'll live longer and feel better.

I do understand that JM spoke of jogging for the fun of it with exercise as almost a by product. My main worry is wearing stuff out because I still need all my stuff to make a living. Since work for me is primarily a from the neck down endeavor, I'm constantly aware of the potential consequences of repeated high impact moves. I wish I had been half as conscious of all that 20 years ago.

 

[GO-NAD!]

When I was 8 we moved to FL and I was able to go back to being barefoot a good portion of the time. At first the heat from the road was a problem but it didn't take long for it not to be an issue. Your feet toughen up pretty quickly.

One thing about how 200K years ago man ran down animals barefoot that hasn't been mentioned is that these were some seriously underfed, light weight, short lifespan kind of people. That lifestyle didn't help them. They would have been much better of with a rifle and some Adidas.

Regarding running in general I think of this nature show that I saw. It said you could measure a Bumble Bee's life span by wing beats. I always took it to mean that stuff wears out ... like knees for us ... think of soccer players, after the ripe old age of 23 they are always crying about their knees. Of course I'm not saying that sitting in a Lazy-Boy eating Ding Dings is the answer but I wonder if a conservation of wing beats might be in order here. We need these parts to last much longer than early humans did. Maybe Bumble Bees would live longer if every wing beat wasn't at the speed of light ... like slow that sh!t down, you'll live longer and feel better.

I do understand that JM spoke of jogging for the fun of it with exercise as almost a by product. My main worry is wearing stuff out because I still need all my stuff to make a living. Since work for me is primarily a from the neck down endeavor, I'm constantly aware of the potential consequences of repeated high impact moves. I wish I had been half as conscious of all that 20 years ago.

I certainly won't argue with you about the risk of wearing out your body parts through exercise. That's why I'm not in it to set any records. I just want to maintain a basic level of fitness. I drive a desk all day, at work. So, if I didn't run regularly, I'd be as big as a barn.

I think many injuries occur when people push their bodies past reasonable limits. I don't run consecutive days, so I have recovery time between runs and I have no issues with hips, knees, ankles, etc.

My resting HR is 50 and my BP is fine. I don't look like an athelete, by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm healthy.

My brother-in-law has been very athletic his whole life and has muscles in his sh**. But, now that he's 40, his knees are completely shot. In fact, he and my sister are now looking for a single story home, because the stairs are so hard on him. He still exercises like a demon - but it's strictly no-impact now.

So, I guess you need to strike a balance, between being fit and wearing out your joints while you still need 'em.

For you, Alex, where your work is primarily physical, I'd argue that not maintaining a fitness routine might be more risky to your occupation than the possibility of incurring a work-interupting injury through exercise. As I once heard one sports medicine doc say, "You need to get fit to play sports, not play sports to get fit."

 

[jostenmeat]

Dang 50 HR is pretty efficient, hehe. I've also heard that the soles on the feet toughen up very quickly (like a week is enough). I don't know if 23 really is the end-age for soccer players, but in that sport, people are flying at you in karate kick poses all the time. You're wearing spikes that are supposed to stick* into the ground too, while having to worry about pushes, bodies, kicks from any given angle pretty much. Well, it seems to me anyways.

"The lifestyle didn't help them", as in starting at age 23? Right, who knows, but say 43? Well, then what would it be . . . ? Those Tarahumara are running all the time, all their life, and a 52 y.o. wins one of the toughest races known, on a first try without aid of high tech science, pro nutritionists, backed by shoe company sponsorship money.

And yet, for the most of us in North America, if we ran even as much as GO-NAD did, we are almost certainly going to suffer injuries. I so don't want to jinx GN, but that's sort of the gist of one of the starting premises of the book. Why is running, while seemingly a natural thing to do for us, such an immediate death sentence for our body parts? Even at just say a couple of miles a day, even at a relatively slow pace . . .

So then, why are there people in the world that can do it all day long, all life long, with really big stupid grins on their faces the whole time? Is God only limited in two very extreme choices of either giving us either the ability to only run 1 mile a day for only a year of our life, and 100 miles a day for all our life? (Perhaps an exaggeration, but that could* be the viewpoint of the author here.) Supposedly, when Ann Trason was winning the Leadville for most of the race in '94 or whenever it was, the most disgusting thing for her after a full day of battling the devil, death, and whatever hellish thoughts, was when she was finally passed by the two Tarahumara because of how stupidly happy they looked.

 

[Alex2507]

For you, Alex, where your work is primarily physical, I'd argue that not maintaining a fitness routine might be more risky to your occupation than the possibility of incurring a work-interupting injury through exercise. As I once heard one sports medicine doc say, "You need to get fit to play sports, not play sports to get fit."

No argument there.

I'm gonna go to home Depot and buy a sheet of drywall to take for walks.

Seriously, you're absolutely right. It takes me longer to get in shape for work (at work) but I seem to get soft wicked quick (after a job). I do what I can to stay limber for Competitive Twister but that's starting to produce some serious wear and tear.

Why is running, while seemingly a natural thing to do for us, such an immediate death sentence for our body parts?

It really shouldn't be, should it? As odd as it may seem there was a time when I liked running ... for no reason. Basketball was something I could play all day long ... obviously because I liked it. Who knows, maybe this will rekindle my desire to start doing something like that again. The weather's starting to co-operate.

 

[Rickster71]

I spent the first part of my life bare foot. When we got to New York City people acted like maybe I didn't own shoes since I wasn't wearing them. I was 5.

Sounds like it was a long road to the mauve flip flops you wear today.
I wish I had a dollar for every time Doug asked me, where you got them.

 

[Swerd]

It was a record time actually.

Geoffrey Mutai ran a 2:03:02 marathon! That's so fast I cannot imagine it.

I ran some numbers quickly. 26.2 miles in that time, 123 minutes, becomes a little under 4:42 per mile. For those who remember running track, that translates to under 71 seconds per lap for 105 laps ! That is seriously fast.

I never ran marathon distance. The longest race I ever ran was 6 miles, where the good runners did it in 30 minutes or less. I was well behind them. My freshman year in college (I was 18) I once ran about 18-19 miles with a friend from the cross country team. It was in mid November and we had just finished the season, so we were in very good shape - or so we thought. The friend lived nearby in Durham, NC and wanted to borrow his parents' car for Saturday night. His house was 18-19 miles from the UNC campus. So we ran there. We meant only to cover the distance and had no time goal. We ran mainly on roadsides and hard gravelly ground, most of our cross country training was on a much softer golf course. The next few days after that run, we were not just exhausted but beat up. My legs were rubber for days, and my feet and ankles were bruised. That pretty much killed any desire I had to run longer distances. I have serious respect for those runners in Boston who ran that far that fast.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Dang 50 HR is pretty efficient, hehe.

That'll be when I get up in the morning. During the day, sitting at my desk, it'll be 58-60. Of course, that'll be with several cups of coffee in my system...

And yet, for the most of us in North America, if we ran even as much as GO-NAD did, we are almost certainly going to suffer injuries. I so don't want to jinx GN, but that's sort of the gist of one of the starting premises of the book. Why is running, while seemingly a natural thing to do for us, such an immediate death sentence for our body parts? Even at just say a couple of miles a day, even at a relatively slow pace . . .

Now you just scared me! I feel quite good, at 46 years old. As for wearing out joints, etc, is diet a factor? Are the Tarahumara eating differently than most North Americans? Are they getting something in their diet that protects their joints?

My daughter was born when I was at the relatively old age of 36. I want to be around to see her get well-established in life, before I kick the bucket. Of course, there's no predicting what afflictions/accidents I may suffer that can throw that goal out the window. What I can do, is try not to have a heart attack at 65, from being a couch potato. I figure that the risk to my health is greater from inactivity, than from over-activity. Your point is well-taken though, JM. Any signs of degradation in my carcass will prompt a search for a lower impact form of exercise.

I'm not sure what else I would do though. I'm a terrible swimmer. (Newfoundlanders are notorious for that, despite living on an island where 90% of the population lives within walking distance of the ocean and a significant proportion of them make their living as fishermen. Perhaps it's because the water is so frickin' cold...)

I would ride my bike to work, except for the fact that I'd be terrified of the traffic. This place ain't exactly bicycle friendly.

So, for now, I'll cross my fingers and hope that my joints hold up.

 

[jostenmeat]

GO-NAD!, I'm pretty sure diet was never mentioned in terms of joint longevity. I think it had to do more with energy and nutrition (and hydration if you asked Scott Jurek).

I think the point is that some people have learned HOW to run. A hardcore barefooter might believe that a running shoe will atrophy the foot's muscles. edit: I remember the book says that over 1/4 of all our human bones reside in our feet. I don't recall if they mentioned the number of muscles and ligaments.

The thought why certain shoes are bad for us was sorta explained in my first post, I think anyways, but maybe I can expound. Our feet, when going through squishy stuff, are searching for that tactile ground information. The bones push through, searching. Our feet are also super sensitive, on the level of face, hands, genitalia.

The thought is also that impact is not reduced at all (only immediate pain, but if we were running properly, it wouldn't be painful anyways: pain teaches us), and if we never learned to run properly, that we might be incorrectly dealing with the impact. I think at one point in the book someone explained it as if you are chasing your child into the street, you will have an upright back, on the balls of your feet, and when I think of it this way, we would be extremely balanced; ready to dart our body instantly in any direction in front of us. I imagined something like this on a run last week, but the problem for me was the sense of urgency and quickening of pace, which would seem natural of course.

From my very very short time on running forums, there seem to be quite a few people who are going both/hybrid. They either do the first half of the run barefeet, or the second. The first would be to make sure proper form/technique is used, and finish with shoes. Those who do the second part say it's then when their form/technique is finally failing, and the barefeet get them back in shape, or something.

You really shouldn't be asking me though, I know nothing really. I am excited about running now, for the very first time in my life. I honestly thought it was the most boring thing one could do as far as exercise, ok outside of being in a gym, etc.

The book eschews the old idea of "no pain no gain". The author and others suspect this kind of attitude has caused countless injuries of countless types. The idea for running, even at insane lengths, is supposed to be truly of fun. Maybe that's why these Indians always look stupidly happy or something.

If you feel good, then obviously you're doing something right. There is that old adage, don't fix it if it ain't broke. How long have you been doing your running regimen?

I know that the Tarahumara play this game with a wooden ball. I also remember that these Indians in other regions with different terrain will use a different size ball, maybe even with differing rules. The ball will just act so randomly on the very rocky terrain, and so their feet must be able to quickly dart and know. The region where they live has extremely* dangerous terrain, yet they fly up and down it. I can't remember for certain, but maybe in that game, and in other running situations, the best runner might hang in the back. This may relate to the idea of hunting technique (it might have been a hypothesis of the Harvard prof, IIRC, or maybe that's in fact how the Bushmen do it) as a whole clan in that the elderly have the youngsters trailing them, teaching them first hand how to track. The most fit of the men are in the back, saving the energy bursts of continuously tracking, saving the energy for the kill. Unlike a race, they would never know how long the hunt would be, whether one hour, or five hours.

BTW, my "tracker friend" has already seen that running hunt DVD, is poor, and says it would be worth every penny if I could figure out the region coding (yes he's willing to purchase it). Maybe I'll splurge $50 on such a DVD player. The courses in tracking he takes (and btw, he is a professional survival course teacher, adults, but even teaching kids to stay warm sleeping in the outdoors with no tent no sleeping bag, even as young as five in areas with mountain lions; yes he makes lifelong friends), the teacher's assignment to you would be any specific animal, can be even a snake, or a large creature, maybe even a bird for all I know. Your assignment is finished when you touch the creature.

 

[GO-NAD!]

GO-NAD!, I'm pretty sure diet was never mentioned in terms of joint longevity. I think it had to do more with energy and nutrition (and hydration if you asked Scott Jurek).

I think the point is that some people have learned HOW to run. A hardcore barefooter might believe that a running shoe will atrophy the foot's muscles. edit: I remember the book says that over 1/4 of all our human bones reside in our feet. I don't recall if they mentioned the number of muscles and ligaments.

The thought why certain shoes are bad for us was sorta explained in my first post, I think anyways, but maybe I can expound. Our feet, when going through squishy stuff, are searching for that tactile ground information. The bones push through, searching. Our feet are also super sensitive, on the level of face, hands, genitalia.

The thought is also that impact is not reduced at all (only immediate pain, but if we were running properly, it wouldn't be painful anyways: pain teaches us), and if we never learned to run properly, that we might be incorrectly dealing with the impact. I think at one point in the book someone explained it as if you are chasing your child into the street, you will have an upright back, on the balls of your feet, and when I think of it this way, we would be extremely balanced; ready to dart our body instantly in any direction in front of us. I imagined something like this on a run last week, but the problem for me was the sense of urgency and quickening of pace, which would seem natural of course.

From my very very short time on running forums, there seem to be quite a few people who are going both/hybrid. They either do the first half of the run barefeet, or the second. The first would be to make sure proper form/technique is used, and finish with shoes. Those who do the second part say it's then when their form/technique is finally failing, and the barefeet get them back in shape, or something.

You really shouldn't be asking me though, I know nothing really. I am excited about running now, for the very first time in my life. I honestly thought it was the most boring thing one could do as far as exercise, ok outside of being in a gym, etc.

The book eschews the old idea of "no pain no gain". The author and others suspect this kind of attitude has caused countless injuries of countless types. The idea for running, even at insane lengths, is supposed to be truly of fun. Maybe that's why these Indians always look stupidly happy or something.

If you feel good, then obviously you're doing something right. There is that old adage, don't fix it if it ain't broke. How long have you been doing your running regimen?

I know that the Tarahumara play this game with a wooden ball. I also remember that these Indians in other regions with different terrain will use a different size ball, maybe even with differing rules. The ball will just act so randomly on the very rocky terrain, and so their feet must be able to quickly dart and know. The region where they live has extremely* dangerous terrain, yet they fly up and down it. I can't remember for certain, but maybe in that game, and in other running situations, the best runner might hang in the back. This may relate to the idea of hunting technique (it might have been a hypothesis of the Harvard prof, IIRC, or maybe that's in fact how the Bushmen do it) as a whole clan in that the elderly have the youngsters trailing them, teaching them first hand how to track. The most fit of the men are in the back, saving the energy bursts of continuously tracking, saving the energy for the kill. Unlike a race, they would never know how long the hunt would be, whether one hour, or five hours.

BTW, my "tracker friend" has already seen that running hunt DVD, is poor, and says it would be worth every penny if I could figure out the region coding (yes he's willing to purchase it). Maybe I'll splurge $50 on such a DVD player. The courses in tracking he takes (and btw, he is a professional survival course teacher, adults, but even teaching kids to stay warm sleeping in the outdoors with no tent no sleeping bag, even as young as five in areas with mountain lions; yes he makes lifelong friends), the teacher's assignment to you would be any specific animal, can be even a snake, or a large creature, maybe even a bird for all I know. Your assignment is finished when you touch the creature.

Looks like you're very excited about this form of running, JM! Hope you enjoy it! I've started running about 12 years ago. It hasn't been consistent though. Like, when I do a renovation or other such large project, my mileage goes wayyy down. That's probably why I haven't really stepped up my speed/distance over the years. This year, I hope to make some progress. We'll see how that goes.

As for running barefoot, the thought is a bit unnerving. I have a mental picture of shredded soles after a few hundred metres. On top of that, for 4-5 months of the year up here, I probably get frostbitten toes...

I'm quite intrigued about what you've been reading though. Looks very interesting.

 

[jostenmeat]

So two days ago my friend helped me go shoe shopping. I tried on about 5 pairs of the VFFs and one pair of Merrells. I wish I didn't hate the Merrells because they look more normal. I would describe the feeling to be that it was squishier with EVA padding that ends right behind the balls of the feet. My knees hated them. I was told that there is no heel drop off or something strange like that.

With the VFFs, the volume of my feet eliminated certain designs as related to the lace/strapping. I bought the KSO style, and I am not mistaken, the bottom is as thin as it comes at 4mm. What I also found interesting was that an older design which was essentially identical except that it didn't have the mesh top to keep sand out felt more flexible. Yeah, I guess just even that super thin patch of mesh will reduce flexibility. It's a single strap design.

I took my first run with them yesterday, and I didn't realize that my 1.5 mile test run would be considered reckless and rash (it was supposed to be much shorter)! It felt great though! My friend warned me last night that my calves would likely be sore today, but they're not really sore; my right calf is a bit tight though. Anyways, he said that one should start out with shorter distances, and build up by 1/4 mile increments. While studying my gait at the store, and after my story on the first run, he asked why I might more quickly learn how to run with these. I figured it must be because I don't really have any running habits to break, and I do believe I have higher than average coordination and balance.

I had tentative plans to go running on a trail tomorrow morning with another friend, but it looks like that will have to be a game time decision.

Anyways, running with the VFFs was just fascinating! The first half mile, I realized I was creating a bit too much impact with the heels as I was starting to feel them a bit. Then I started propulsing more with the balls of the feet (and I learned later that this is normal and hence the greater use of calves). But the biggest eye opener was just how still, calm, and straight the back was. Like wierdly so. The head was much more still than usual too. Just a wee bit of bob, but much less than normal. I watched Fair Game last night that came in from Netflix, and there's a scene where Naomi Watts was running on a treadmill staring at the TV, and the amount of up and down movement of her head/body was really quite a lot.

Picking my friend's brain some more (who knows sooo much about anatomy in relation to sports, I can't remember all the names, and measurements he takes on people's feet/legs to design custom bicycles whereby the knees can act more efficiently), and he said the biggest learning jump he made from losing the VFFs to going barefoot was that the propulsion of the balls of the feet are just enough not to unnecessarily chafe on the ground. He says he does freak people out time to time, because running barefeet is super silent like a ninja, and people get surprised when someone breaks past them out of nowhere. He also mentioned that running on even frosty ground is not a big deal as the feet get very warm, even when other body parts are cold. Oh yeah, he also said he bikes differently now, where before he would use a higher gear and "power through" the climbs, he now picks a lower gear and uses more revolutions instead. He says the difference is dramatic, and that barefoot running has made him that much better of a cycler. I think he said that it's about 3 footsteps a second is considered to be an efficient starting pace. Also, if someone is used to wearing shoes with any kind of heel lift, that one should be all the more careful as our Achilles tendon will actually shrink when used to such shoes.

What I was most confused about during my run was how to deal with the descents. I think that's when he mentioned the avoidance of chafing, as it relates to pace, and especially with downhills. He had to ask me how much the decline was, and the one I hit was rather mild.

Anyways, it's pretty interesting stuff!!

 

[audiofox]

Well, I began my barefoot jogging today-I did a mile with no shoes, followed by another 1.5 miles with my regular shoes (I typically do 2-2.5 miles per day). The difference was striking-it definitely felt easier and more natural without the shoes than with them, but I also developed the beginnings of some blisters on the toes that don't see much load when I use the shoes. I may invest in some of the Vibrams, but I am actually considering a poor man's approach with Band-aids for the pressure points and just gut it out-my "course" doesn't really have any serious problems (it's basically a neighborhood sidewalk), so for me, it is a matter of how long it takes to toughen up the soft parts of my soles (mainly my toes) so I can do the entire run without shoes. I had no issues with muscle pain, but I did notice a dramatic reduction in foot and knee joint discomfort, which is very encouraging. Living in SoCal definitely helps-no worries about weather-related "track" problems.

Thanks, Josten, for the post-it got me off my butt on this.

 

[jostenmeat]

Heh, pretty cool audiofox! You know, I don't know what the recommended starting distance would be, but I wouldn't be surprised if 1.0 mile was considered reckless too! How do your calves feel today?

My right one is still tight, but my friend had to cancel yesterday anyways, which I'm sure is a good thing. The friend who helped me shop says that trails are particularly fun because you start picking lines for your feet. Anyways the friend that cancelled (who has been doing barefoot for 7 years I just learned) said that he experienced the same thing with the back, and mentioned that the achilles and calves are the secret power source to barefoot.

I don't know what kind of bandaids you're talking about, but I'm pretty skeptical that they will last any significant distance. I might look into athletic tape, or even some moleskin wrapped in said tape. (We used moleskin all the time in basketball.)

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n:3779981&page=1

 

[GO-NAD!]

I thought I'd dredge this thread up, as for the last few months I've been walking/running in Adidas Adipures* (similar to VFFs) and I'm quite happy with them. Although I mentioned in previous posts that I am a runner, I don't think I mentioned that I had suffered for years with plantar fasciitis. Nothing I tried helped. Last year, it came to a head and I was nearly crippled with it and I gave up running all together. Then I heard about this from a friend:

How the Strassburg Sock Night Splint Works

It worked wonders! Within a few weeks, my feet felt great! When I figured I was ready to start exercising again, I realized that I couldn't go back to doing the same as before, so I thought I'd try to run with a forefoot strike, rather than a heel strike. But, I wasn't able to force myself to forefoot strike in conventional running shoes, so I bought the Adidas Adipures and started walking on the treadmill. Over time, I transitioned into alternating walking/running. It took a while to strengthen my feet and calves, as well as my achilles tendons. After a few weeks I thought I'd try running outside - and promptly overdid it. The next day my calves were killing me. I had to give a it a few days rest and try again, but recognized that I wasn't ready to go all out. So, I'm still transitioning to this style of running. My calves and tendons have adjusted quite well, but my arches don't like it when I overdo it.

When I am running outside, I have to warn pedestrians when I'm approaching from behind, because my foot strikes are much quieter than before and I've nearly had collisions and almost induced a couple of heart attacks.

*In case someone bring it up, I already know about the lawsuit against Adidas concerning injuries suffered by people wearing them. Inflated claims by the manufacturer, or lack of common sense on the part of the plaintifs? Who knows? I just know not to expect miracles from any product...

 

[lsiberian]

I actually started running again this morning haven't run in like 3 months, but got a mile in. Gonna work back up to a 5k.