Bookshelf v Tower for a smaller room

[Davemcc]

Just one caveat with speakers like my Dynaudio or Era D5, you would be best served if you have a really good receiver or separate amplification. They are low impedence and low sensitivity so they want a stable power supply. Many high end speakers are like that. It's not a unique situation so it's something to consider as you upgrade.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I think that more than room size must be involved. Large towers sound awesome in my HT, which is only 10' X 10'. Those same towers sound too bass-heavy in my music room, which is 12' X 20', and I greatly prefer bookshelves in there.

 

[trnqk7]

I would second that you look at Dali's Ikon series...you should be able to get the setup in my sig. for less than $3k with no issues. The towers have enough bass that I don't "need" a sub for music listening, it just provides a little extra thump (btw, my room is open to the kitchen, entryway, dining room, and a foyer...about 1300sq ft with 9ft ceilings to boot, so quite a large area). The Ikon's do very well in there. If you like articulate highs (similar to Axioms, but a little better IMO) then you would like Dali. Big problem is finding a dealer! Just my 2 cents, as I just updgrade myself with your budget and chose these over B&W, Klipsch, Axiom, and RBH.

 

[jliedeka]

After a lot of lurking, I registered at Audiogon last night and started really looking at what was being offered. I guess I'm still going to lurk for a while but I've really started thinking about what I want.

I've got some ideas about how to maximize the bang for buck ratio. There are some dealers offering some great discounts like a Marantz SR8002 for $1500. There were some good prices on PSB image speakers as well.

As much as I covet better gear, I'm getting more out of my old stuff while I think it over. I just finished re-arranging my living room and I have my speakers in great spots now. It's almost like having new speakers without the expense.

Jim

 

[pearsall001]

There are a whole lot of fantastic sounding floorstanders out there. But as far as being full range...not really. Unless you spend a ton of money, by that I mean a true full range (very few by the way) would cost you a small fortune & would be enormous in size. There are so many compromises in the design of a floorstander, & bass in the biggie. Cabinet size, power requirements & all the different crossovers involved are all down sides. Even though they sound fantastic, you're not getting true bass.

A quality monitor along with a well integrated quality sub will simply out perform a pair of floorstanders...period. The key here is that sub must integrate flawlessly. If you can't pull that off then you won't reap the rewards. A floorstander is simply a monitor wanna be plus trying to pull off the bass part, sorry, it's not going to win at this one.

 

[3db]

There are a whole lot of fantastic sounding floorstanders out there. But as far as being full range...not really. Unless you spend a ton of money, by that I mean a true full range (very few by the way) would cost you a small fortune & would be enormous in size. There are so many compromises in the design of a floorstander, & bass in the biggie. Cabinet size, power requirements & all the different crossovers involved are all down sides. Even though they sound fantastic, you're not getting true bass.

A quality monitor along with a well integrated quality sub will simply out perform a pair of floorstanders...period. The key here is that sub must integrate flawlessly. If you can't pull that off then you won't reap the rewards. A floorstander is simply a monitor wanna be plus trying to pull off the bass part, sorry, it's not going to win at this one.

I disagree with some of your points.

There is very little music below 40Hz with the exception of pipe organ music and rap. Getting a pair of towers that will reach into the 30Hz region will suffice for music with the exceptions noted above. Thats easy to get.

Secondaly, its difficult to integrate a sub with a pair of speakers when it comes to music and its even more difficult to fit the sub into the room for even bass response. There are always real life compromises (ie spouse acceptance to rearrange the furniture etc) to make unless you have a dedicated listening room.

I have a pair of towers and they disappear into the room as well as any similar priced monitor I've heard.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Big problem is finding a dealer! .

That is a major understatement. I have never seen a Dali speaker in person, and I am not sure if I ever will.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I disagree with some of your points.

There is very little music below 40Hz with the exception of pipe organ music and rap. Getting a pair of towers that will reach into the 30Hz region will suffice for music with the exceptions noted above. Thats easy to get.

Secondaly, its difficult to integrate a sub with a pair of speakers when it comes to music and its even more difficult to fit the sub into the room for even bass response. There are always real life compromises (ie spouse acceptance to rearrange the furniture etc) to make unless you have a dedicated listening room.

I have a pair of towers and they disappear into the room as well as any similar priced monitor I've heard.

Agreed on both points. I actually switched from towers to bookshelves (no sub with either) because the bookshelves don't excite the room modes that can make towers sound muddy. I find that I have no sense of "missing" bass at all. (If I ever upgrade, I would consider somewhat larger bookshelves that extend maybe 5 or 10Hz lower, but no more than that.)

 

[3db]

Agreed on both points. I actually switched from towers to bookshelves (no sub with either) because the bookshelves don't excite the room modes that can make towers sound muddy. I find that I have no sense of "missing" bass at all. (If I ever upgrade, I would consider somewhat larger bookshelves that extend maybe 5 or 10Hz lower, but no more than that.)

Whose points are you agreeing with?

The bass I get from my PSBs are fast tight,well defined and far from muddy.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Whose points are you agreeing with?

Um, the ones that I quoted.
(Little music below 40Hz, sub difficult to integrate.)
As I said, it is my room that causes muddy bass, not the speakers.

 

[pearsall001]

Agreed on both points. I actually switched from towers to bookshelves (no sub with either) because the bookshelves don't excite the room modes that can make towers sound muddy. I find that I have no sense of "missing" bass at all. (If I ever upgrade, I would consider somewhat larger bookshelves that extend maybe 5 or 10Hz lower, but no more than that.)

Generally speaking, if your towers sounded muddy, it's probably a placement issue. That's where monitors excel & towers have trouble pulling off all musical duties. Usually where you have to put your towers, it's an ideal location for the mid-bass & tweeters (monitor part) but the worst location for bass reproduction. That's a big downfall of towers.

As far as my set up goes, I'm not at all after more bass. My AAD 2001 monitors can hit down to 25Hz & fill my 3000cu ft room with no problem. There is a whole lot more involved with bass than just going below 40 or so Hz.

What a sub does is add more dimension, space, size of soundstage, better imaging & just a feeling that's down right hard to explain. It doesn't even have to be hitting low at all to know what it's adding to the musical presentation. Now my amp is using all it's power for controlling the mid-bass drivers & the tweeters. Your speakers now sound like you never heard them before. They will excell in these areas because they're not bogged down with fighting over the amp trying to power a bass driver (or maybe more). It's not until you separate the mid-bass & tweeters from the bass that you can really appreciate your speakers.

Now granted WAF, placement & seemless integration can pose issues. If these really are issues then by all means enjoy your system. I've had towers before & really enjoyed them. I even tried other subs with my present system & they didn't work out well. I just didn't give up...then I tried the Velo SPL-1200R & bam, everything fell into place.

 

[3db]

Generally speaking, if your towers sounded muddy, it's probably a placement issue. That's where monitors excel & towers have trouble pulling off all musical duties. Usually where you have to put your towers, it's an ideal location for the mid-bass & tweeters (monitor part) but the worst location for bass reproduction. That's a big downfall of towers.

As far as my set up goes, I'm not at all after more bass. My AAD 2001 monitors can hit down to 25Hz & fill my 3000cu ft room with no problem. There is a whole lot more involved with bass than just going below 40 or so Hz.

What a sub does is add more dimension, space, size of soundstage, better imaging & just a feeling that's down right hard to explain. It doesn't even have to be hitting low at all to know what it's adding to the musical presentation. Now my amp is using all it's power for controlling the mid-bass drivers & the tweeters. Your speakers now sound like you never heard them before. They will excell in these areas because they're not bogged down with fighting over the amp trying to power a bass driver (or maybe more). It's not until you separate the mid-bass & tweeters from the bass that you can really appreciate your speakers.

Now granted WAF, placement & seemless integration can pose issues. If these really are issues then by all means enjoy your system. I've had towers before & really enjoyed them. I even tried other subs with my present system & they didn't work out well. I just didn't give up...then I tried the Velo SPL-1200R & bam, everything fell into place.

Bass doesn't offer any imaging at all as its omni directional in nature so I don't know how you can say its offers a better soundstage. It simply doesn't. Further more, most music doesn't contain much info below 40Hz so I feel to see the validity about the whole lot more to bass than 40 Hz.

Like I said before, the bass I get from my PSB T45s is tight fast and very musical. Its not muddy at all. Maybe your room had problems with towers or your towers were at fault but your experience doesn't hold true for everyone.

 

[pearsall001]

Bass doesn't offer any imaging at all as its omni directional in nature so I don't know how you can say its offers a better soundstage. It simply doesn't. Further more, most music doesn't contain much info below 40Hz so I feel to see the validity about the whole lot more to bass than 40 Hz.

Like I said before, the bass I get from my PSB T45s is tight fast and very musical. Its not muddy at all. Maybe your room had problems with towers or your towers were at fault but your experience doesn't hold true for everyone.

What can I say, you seem very happy with your towers & I can appreciate that. But what I can also say is that if you were to add a quality sub, spent some time to get the integration just right that you would be shocked at the difference you would hear. Everything I said in the above post is accurate as taking in the whole package. Unless you experience it first hand I can understand your reluctance. For me there is just no better combo.

This is what makes this hobby so much fun, there is no right or wrong answers, just opinions & whatever sounds good to you is the way to go.

 

[3db]

What can I say, you seem very happy with your towers & I can appreciate that. But what I can also say is that if you were to add a quality sub, spent some time to get the integration just right that you would be shocked at the difference you would hear. Everything I said in the above post is accurate as taking in the whole package. Unless you experience it first hand I can understand your reluctance. For me there is just no better combo.

This is what makes this hobby so much fun, there is no right or wrong answers, just opinions & whatever sounds good to you is the way to go.

I set my towers to small and run the sub for HT but for music, I like my bass a little rolled off with the exception of pipe organ music.

 

[TLS Guy]

What can I say, you seem very happy with your towers & I can appreciate that. But what I can also say is that if you were to add a quality sub, spent some time to get the integration just right that you would be shocked at the difference you would hear. Everything I said in the above post is accurate as taking in the whole package. Unless you experience it first hand I can understand your reluctance. For me there is just no better combo.

This is what makes this hobby so much fun, there is no right or wrong answers, just opinions & whatever sounds good to you is the way to go.

Bass is bass if properly reproduced. All you are saying is that the bass from your sub is more accurate, or at least you prefer it, to the bass from your towers.

There are not many complete speakers any more that have low F3 with a good quality bass. They are around, but they are now companies more expensive offerings. The industry has become geared to speakers with smaller bass mid drivers with a sub. They is no physical law that says that has to be so. If you do go with an integrated speaker that plays the last octave you have to figure a way to mix back the LFE channel for movies.

If you click on the link in my signature, you will see a set of speakers that will give any sub a run for its money. No need for vibrators in the chairs, I promise you.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Bass is bass if properly reproduced. All you are saying is that the bass from your sub is more accurate, or at least you prefer it, to the bass from your towers.

Um, no, I am not saying anything like that. You missed the part about not using a sub in either system. What I am saying is that it sounds better with the bass below about 55Hz missing entirely.

 

[bandphan]

Um, no, I am not saying anything like that. You missed the part about not using a sub in either system. What I am saying is that it sounds better with the bass below about 55Hz missing entirely.

Joe, i dont think tls was replying to you, but i have a question, why does it sound better with frequency cut at 55hz?

 

[TLS Guy]

Um, no, I am not saying anything like that. You missed the part about not using a sub in either system. What I am saying is that it sounds better with the bass below about 55Hz missing entirely.

Joe, your preferences are well known to me. As I have often stated I think you have a valid point. However your bass is not cut off at 55 HZ. Your speakers have second order roll off. They are down 12db at around 30 Hz, so you have more low bass output than you think.

I feel that you do not like colored bass. You may also have a room the develops bass standing waves, I don't know. I'm certain you would rather have less bass than more inaccurate bass. That is not a bad position to come from.

All I know is, that the more I see of your posts, the more I'm certain you would love a good TL speaker.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

All I know is, that the more I see of your posts, the more I'm certain you would love a good TL speaker.

My Def Techs use a transmission line design. They do sound pretty good overall in my room, but they put out a rather excessive amount of bass that can not only become boomy, but also overwhelm the other frequencies.
A good way to sum it up is that I like the Def Techs (or other towers with strong bass) when I am in the mood for powerful sound, and I prefer the Cambridges (or other small bookshelves) when I am in the mood for a more intimate presentation with extreme clarity and detail.

 

[TLS Guy]

My Def Techs use a transmission line design. They do sound pretty good overall in my room, but they put out a rather excessive amount of bass that can not only become boomy, but also overwhelm the other frequencies.
A good way to sum it up is that I like the Def Techs (or other towers with strong bass) when I am in the mood for powerful sound, and I prefer the Cambridges (or other small bookshelves) when I am in the mood for a more intimate presentation with extreme clarity and detail.

I said a good TL Joe!