bookshelf or floorstanding

S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
I have read a few threads comparing the two. I require advice within my budget range, room size and with other constraints. Hence created a new thread.

My budget is around 700 - 1000$ for the fronts alone. Room is sized around 12 x 14 x 10 in feet. (See pic - I prefer to place speakers at either A or B). Very loud levels are not essential, clear - room filling sound is. Also, I am looking use a woofer either way for the lower frequencies.

So given my price range, is a bookshelf or floor standing better. Why? Does room size matter here for choice between the two?
More importantly what are my choices? As my other constraint is that I do not have the liberty to audition many speakers. Few choices available in my range.
My budget would include stands for the bookshelves, making me favor floor standing over bookshelf.
 

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B

bikemig

Audioholic Chief
Power?

I have the same question. I am leaning towards bookshelves in part because of cost and in part because they seem to require less power to drive than floorstanding speakers but I'd like to learn more before making a decision.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I have read a few threads comparing the two. I require advice within my budget range, room size and with other constraints. Hence created a new thread.

My budget is around 700 - 1000$ for the fronts alone. Room is sized around 12 x 14 x 10 in feet. (See pic - I prefer to place speakers at either A or B). Very loud levels are not essential, clear - room filling sound is. Also, I am looking use a woofer either way for the lower frequencies.

So given my price range, is a bookshelf or floor standing better. Why? Does room size matter here for choice between the two?
More importantly what are my choices? As my other constraint is that I do not have the liberty to audition many speakers. Few choices available in my range.
My budget would include stands for the bookshelves, making me favor floor standing over bookshelf.
You can go towers or bookshelves - towers will keep you from
buying the stands. What have you listened to in the past - and
what type of sound do you like? If you set up from the B side,
then it should be better for seating arangement.
 
S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
You can go towers or bookshelves - towers will keep you from
buying the stands. What have you listened to in the past - and
what type of sound do you like? If you set up from the B side,
then it should be better for seating arangement.
Paradigm monitor 9 only. I prefer soft, i do listen to rock n a bit of hard rock. But I like it, well "soft on my ears" although a bit loud. (Not sure how to put it in wwords :-D)
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I responded to the bookshelf versus floorstanders in another thread, so I will just paste it in:

Generally speaking, with towers, one gets greater volume possible, and deeper bass. However, if we are talking about a home theater where there will be a subwoofer for the deep bass anyway, then there is no need for the other speakers to go very deep. Also, towers in the same model line cost more than bookshelf speakers. This means that if one has a particular budget, if one buys bookshelf speakers, one can spend that extra money on a better subwoofer and get deeper bass. Or, one can spend that extra money on a higher line of bookshelf speaker, and get the upper frequencies better.

With that in mind, what do you want most: Maximum volume, deepest bass, or highest quality of midbass and up? If you want maximum volume, you want the towers, if you want deepest bass, you want bookshelf speakers with the extra money going into a better subwoofer, and if you want the midbass and up better, you want to buy bookshelf speakers in a higher line than what you would get with tower speakers at the same price.

Keep in mind, these are generalities, and some bookshelf speakers of some brands play very loud indeed, so you will want to think carefully about what you value most.

I personally use high quality bookshelf speakers for all channels in my surround system (other than the subwoofers, of course), and my system is capable of playing louder than I ever want to hear it. But some people like to listen to their system at volumes that do permanent damage to their hearing, and so it might be that some people would not be satisfied with my maximum volume.
Now, I recommend that you not get too hung up on generalities, and go audition speakers to find what you personally like. If you have room for either one, I would not automatically exclude either bookshelf or floorstanding speakers from consideration.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
While I am at it, I may as well include some additional comments made later on in that same thread:

Your questions do not have simple answers that will be true in all cases. This is because whether a particular 2-way speaker sounds better or worse than a particular 3-way speaker depends on what speakers we are talking about, as well as what qualities matter to an individual (as one speaker may sound better with some aspects of the sound, and another may sound better with others).

In other words, some 2-way bookshelf speakers will sound better in soundstage and imaging and dialog than some 3-way speakers, and some 3-way speakers will sound better in soundstage and imaging and dialog than some 2-way speakers. To put this another way, whether a speaker is good or not is not determined by whether it is 2-way or 3-way.


If we are looking at a particular price point, one can have more expensive drivers if there are fewer of them, and also the crossover is simplified by having fewer divisions of frequencies (and consequently will be cheaper to make, if all else is equal), and so there will be more money for better parts in the crossover, or that money can be put into more expensive drivers or a better cabinet or whatever. Plus, the smaller the speaker overall, the cheaper it is to ship (though if the speakers get too small, it will be a problem for them going deep enough to mate well with a subwoofer; the laws of physics cannot be violated). If one is buying a speaker in an ordinary retail store, the cost of shipping from the factory to the store is part of the retail price that you are going to have to pay. And so again, at a particular price point, that savings in shipping could be going into better drivers in the relatively small two-way speaker.

One of the mistakes that many people make in their comparisons is to compare models in a particular line of speakers. That is a mistake because the bookshelf speakers in that line are cheaper, so that what one is doing is comparing relatively cheap speakers with more expensive speakers. Being more expensive, the more expensive speakers ought to be better in some way. But if we are talking about a particular price point, the bookshelf speakers that will cost the same as a tower speaker will be in a higher line of speakers, and those are what should be compared. Unless, of course, one is taking the approach of having a better subwoofer instead, in which case one's listening comparisons should be done with the subwoofers properly set up, not with the speakers playing full range. So that is another way that people do not properly compare, as, of course, in the same line, generally the tower speaker will go deeper in the bass, but that is not important if one is going to be using a subwoofer in one's system to handle that deep bass anyway.

If we are talking about a system where one will use a subwoofer for the very deepest bass, essentially if the other speakers are two-way, the overall system will be three way (as the frequencies are divided into three parts, with the tweeter getting the treble, the woofer in the two-way speaker getting the midbass, and the subwoofer getting the deep bass), and if the other speakers are three-way, the overall system will be four-way with a subwoofer taking care of the deepest bass. In cases with a subwoofer, the main channel speakers are not being required to do the full range of frequencies (or at least need not be).


The long and the short of it, in my opinion, is this: Do not buy based upon whether it is two-way or three-way or four-way or whatever-way; buy based on actual performance, and on aspects of the performance that will actually matter in the use to which one will put the speaker (by that second point I mean things like, do not worry about the deepest bass of a speaker if you are going to actually be using a subwoofer for those frequencies anyway).

In my particular case, I use two-way bookshelf speakers for all channels. But I did not buy them because they were two-way; if I had found a better speaker that would suit my needs (which obviously includes price) that happened to be three-way or four-way, I would not have hesitated to go with them instead.


In my particular case, going higher up in the line (at the time I bought mine [the ones at the link are slightly different with an altered crossover, but otherwise the same]) would have involved using the same tweeter and midbass driver, and with the cheapest tower, it added a second midbass driver, and with the more expensive tower, it added a larger woofer instead of a second midbass driver. (At the time I bought mine, those were the three models available; since then new models have appeared.) In other words, these three speakers used the same tweeter, basically the same midbass driver (though in the bookshelf speakers it was slightly modified, with a smaller dustcap), and then whether there was another driver or not, and what it was if there was one, is what distinguished the models. They also had different crossovers, which can seriously affect the sound, particularly if one of them is poorly made. Well, the cheapest of these is a bookshelf speaker that has a -3dB point of 50Hz, which is low enough to mate well with a subwoofer, which is how I was going to use them. Neither of the towers would fit below my TV, so I would either be using a bookshelf speaker or I would be using the center channel speaker, which again uses the same tweeter and uses two of basically the same midbass drivers. It would be an excellent match, of course, for the others, but not a perfect match, because it is a different speaker. Now, the prices went up fast, and buying one pair of the best towers (versus one pair of the bookshelf speakers) would have taken up the money I spent on my subwoofers (I bought my subwoofers used at a great price), and would not give me nearly as deep bass for that money. (If I had purchased my subwoofers new, that price difference would have paid for one of them, which still would give me much deeper bass, for that same price.)

So, what have I given up? Well, the tower speakers (especially the best ones), if used without a subwoofer, would be able to give me significantly deeper bass. Since I don't actually use them that way in my home theater system, that does not matter. I also am giving up maximum SPL, as the towers will play louder, due to moving up the crossover frequency to the tweeter, and having an additional woofer deal with the deepest bass. However, my system will play loud and clear at levels I find painful, so that does not matter in my case either.

In my case, with my use, I think I made the right decision. However, different people have different things that they are wanting, and are also dealing with different price points, and so their decisions may be quite different from mine, without either of us being wrong to decide what we decide. (Of course, either or both of us could be wrong to decide what we decide, but that is always a possibility, whether we make the same choice or not.)

Edited to add:

Here is a view of a brochure with all of the then-available models:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/AC_brochure002.JPG

Please note, the frequency responses listed in it, if they do not specify a tolerance (e.g., +/-3dB), they are specifying with the bass at -6dB. Thus, the Leisure 2SE (original U.S. version) is -3dB @ 50Hz, and at -6dB @ 42 Hz mentioned in the brochure.

Also, most of the speakers sold on eBay are not the U.S. version, but are an inferior version. There used to be 4 versions, but there now appear to be even more, with some of them now not only using a cheaper woofer, but also using a cheaper tweeter as well (not to mention the differences in crossover and bass port).

Here you can see some pictures of differences between the U.S. version and a cheaper "international" version:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/US_vs_CH.htm

The U.S. version has a smaller, flared port on the back, and the international uses a larger, straight port, resulting in less flat response in the bass (with a hump in the upper bass) and down -3dB at 55Hz instead of 50Hz, though with some of the newer versions with lesser woofers, it might now be worse with new purchases of international versions.

The U.S. version has a higher quality finish.

The U.S. version has no red Chinese lettering on the back plate.

The U.S. version has on the back plate "Kellsie Audio & Video Designs," who at the time were not only the only authorized U.S. importer, but actually were involved in redesigning the speakers to improve them (as mentioned above).
 
S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
I would not automatically exclude either bookshelf or floorstanding speakers from consideration.
Any recommendations for my price range?
I require multiple recommendations. As many models i have been recommended are not available for audition :(

I prefer higher quality, if i want more bass I can always add an appropriate woofer later, which i intend to.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Any recommendations for my price range?
I require multiple recommendations. As many models i have been recommended are not available for audition :(

I prefer higher quality, if i want more bass I can always add an appropriate woofer later, which i intend to.
I like Magnepan speakers. The MMG is below the price you are willing to pay, but is not typically sold through dealers; it is sold factory direct:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

If you happen to live near the factory, I am told that you can see and hear them in the reception room during normal business hours (though you would want to contact them to be sure about that).

If a dealer is near you, you could audition one model up:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_12

That model can play a bit louder, goes a bit deeper in the bass, and being taller, will project the sound up higher than the MMG. But it would give you the basic idea of what the MMG is all about, though the MG 12 is better. I think the MG 12 is just above your price range, but I am unsure of the current retail price for them.


You might also want to consider Aurum Cantus speakers, if you can find any that you can audition, though many people find it confusing how many different versions of some of their speakers have been made. You can get the Leisure 2SE in your price range online on eBay, but they will not be the best version. Still, at their price point, all of the versions I have heard are good.

However, I strongly recommend auditioning speakers rather than buying without hearing them first, as there is no such thing as a perfect speaker, and so it is a question of which virtues one requires and which vices one can tolerate. For me, the MMG is what I would get at your price point (assuming that the MG 12 is priced just above your price point), if I had the room and the amplifier to drive them (they are 4 ohms, but an honest 4 ohms [i.e., they do not dip down much below 4 ohms, if at all]). My second choice would be a version of the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE, all of which, I believe, are an easy 8 ohms and are easy enough to deal with for placement and such.

If you are going to get speakers for multiple channels, it is best to keep them as close to the same as possible, so that might also influence what would be the best choice for front speakers. The Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE all around would be an easy fit in virtually every room, whereas a room full of Magnepan speakers is going to take up a significant amount of space, as well as make greater demands on amplification.

I very much like ribbon speakers, as you may be able to tell from these choices. Some people, however, want deafening volumes, and for that, usually the best choice involves horns. And obviously there are other options as well. It is all a question of what qualities you want in a speaker.
 
B

Bismarck

Audioholic Intern
I have the same question. I am leaning towards bookshelves in part because of cost and in part because they seem to require less power to drive than floorstanding speakers but I'd like to learn more before making a decision.
Bookshelf speakers don't necessarily require less power to drive. The speaker sensitivity is what makes a speaker easy or hard to drive. Another factor is where the crossover is set. Since a floorstanding speaker can typically provide more bass than a bookshelf speaker, the crossover may be set lower and intern require a more powerful amplifier.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I have the same question. I am leaning towards bookshelves in part because of cost and in part because they seem to require less power to drive than floorstanding speakers but I'd like to learn more before making a decision.
Bookshelf speakers don't necessarily require less power to drive. The speaker sensitivity is what makes a speaker easy or hard to drive. Another factor is where the crossover is set. Since a floorstanding speaker can typically provide more bass than a bookshelf speaker, the crossover may be set lower and intern require a more powerful amplifier.
My guess is that bikemig is confusing maximum power handling with required power. Usually, larger speakers in a line of speakers require slightly less power for the same volume, and can handle more power, thus being able to play louder. So, usually, bookshelf speakers have a more limited maximum output as well as requiring slightly more power for the same volume as floorstanding speakers. And don't go as deep into the bass.

Of course, speakers like the MMG that I recommend are more like a bookshelf speaker with regard to these generalities, as they require more power than most decent speakers and have a more limited maximum volume. And they don't go very deep in the bass compared with many floorstanding speakers. These, of course, are all vices. But if you want to know why I would get them at their price point, you need to listen to them. I know of no other speaker at their price point that sounds more real for reproducing sounds, and that is why I would get them.
 
S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
The post #7 was really helpful. I had read most of it but in bits and pieces, here and there. :)

I like Magnepan speakers. The MMG is below the price you are willing to pay, but is not typically sold through dealers; it is sold factory direct:
Not possible to audition this. I live in india.

I compiled a small list of speakers within my price range, that I "heard of" & available back here to audition.

Paradigm Monitor 9
Paradigm Studio 10/20 (Studio 20 not available, neither available to audition)
Paradigm Titan Monitor (Not available to audition)

PSB Image - B6
PSB Image - T6
PSB GB1??? (unsure how is this)

B&W - 685
B&W - 683

Infinity Harman 363 (Not available)


Trying to add some more to the list and then check out. Heard a lot about the B&W bookshelf ones.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Bookshelf speakers don't necessarily require less power to drive. The speaker sensitivity is what makes a speaker easy or hard to drive. Another factor is where the crossover is set. Since a floorstanding speaker can typically provide more bass than a bookshelf speaker, the crossover may be set lower and intern require a more powerful amplifier.
Totem for example makes some ineffcient bookshelves. . If using a sub, cross your speakers over at 80 Hz if your mains can easily go lower to save on amplifier power. ;)
 
N

naren2512

Audioholic Intern
@ Sylar.

Add these to your " to audition list "

Monitor Audio BX2 - you will find these at Bomerang Audio - Vile Parle

QUAD 11L2 - You will find these at Designer Audio Worli.


Cheers.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Usually, larger speakers in a line of speakers require slightly less power for the same volume, and can handle more power, thus being able to play louder. So, usually, bookshelf speakers have a more limited maximum output as well as requiring slightly more power for the same volume as floorstanding speakers. And don't go as deep into the bass.
Please stop.

The volume that speakers can generate is directly related to the electrical specifications of each speaker as dictated by the designer. Each needs to be evaluated on it's own specifications. There is no "usually" and the cabinet design has no relation to a speakers volume.

Using your own speakers provided in your own link earlier, the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2 bookshelves have a sensitivity of 87dB/w/m. The Aurum Cantus Music Goddess towers have a sensitivity of 87dB/w/m. At any given input level, they are exactly as loud as each other. No more. No less.

You also say that you are giving up max SPL by choosing bookshelves over towers. That is equally false. The Leisure 2 are rated to 150w max. Should you ever give them 150w they would give the exact same SPL as the Music Goddess for that input. But the Music Goddess will accept 200w max you say? Given that you need to double your input for the minimum audible increase of 3dB, you would need to give the Music Goddess' 300w to discern any audible increase but since they are only rated to 200w, that it clearly not feasible. The 50w difference in max input cannot translate into an audible difference in SPL, should you ever try to feed them that much power in the first place.

These two models, regardless of their cabinet design, produce equal SPL. Throw subwoofers into the equation to extend the lower end and you are giving up nothing by choosing bookshelves over towers. Each model has to be evaluated on it's own specs. There is no "usually".
 
PHANofPHUNK

PHANofPHUNK

Full Audioholic
Sylar,

I have the Paradigm monitor 9's. I auditionded the vs. BW 684's. I choose the Paradigm's because the bw's were too soft sounding.

If you like a soft sound listen to the bw's. I think you'll love them.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Please stop.

The volume that speakers can generate is directly related to the electrical specifications of each speaker as dictated by the designer. Each needs to be evaluated on it's own specifications. There is no "usually" and the cabinet design has no relation to a speakers volume.

Using your own speakers provided in your own link earlier, the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2 bookshelves have a sensitivity of 87dB/w/m. The Aurum Cantus Music Goddess towers have a sensitivity of 87dB/w/m. At any given input level, they are exactly as loud as each other. No more. No less.

You also say that you are giving up max SPL by choosing bookshelves over towers. That is equally false. The Leisure 2 are rated to 150w max. Should you ever give them 150w they would give the exact same SPL as the Music Goddess for that input. But the Music Goddess will accept 200w max you say? Given that you need to double your input for the minimum audible increase of 3dB, you would need to give the Music Goddess' 300w to discern any audible increase but since they are only rated to 200w, that it clearly not feasible. The 50w difference in max input cannot translate into an audible difference in SPL, should you ever try to feed them that much power in the first place.

These two models, regardless of their cabinet design, produce equal SPL. Throw subwoofers into the equation to extend the lower end and you are giving up nothing by choosing bookshelves over towers. Each model has to be evaluated on it's own specs. There is no "usually".
You are wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin. Let us start with easily verified factual matters. First, the Leisure 2SE to which I am referring is rated at 88 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, not the 87dB that you claim. Here is a link already provided for that:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/AC_brochure002.JPG

Second, the Music Goddess speaker is also not rated at 87dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter that you claim, nor is it rated the same as the Leisure 2SE (88dB), but is rated as 89dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter (see same link). That means it puts out a higher volume at any given wattage input.

You are also wrong about the power ratings as well for the Leisure 2SE, which is rated for 100 watts, not 150. And the Music Goddess is rated for 250 watts, not the 200 you claim. So the difference in the power ratings between the Leisure 2SE and the Music Goddess is a difference between 100 watts and 250 watts, which is more than double the power. So even if they were equally sensitive (which they are not), the difference in maximum output (according to the ratings) would exceed 3dB.

And that kind of difference is extremely common when keeping within the same line of speakers from a given manufacturer. Most, but not all of the time, one will find some such difference to be the case. All you need to do is look at the numbers given by the manufacturers (which, given your inability to read them in this one case, I don't hold out much hope for your abilities regarding the numbers put out by other manufacturers).


Additionally, you are wrong when you claim that 3dB is the minimum audible difference. It is less than 1 dB:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_lvl.htm

And anyone with a modern receiver that has the volume control marked in decibels can verify this for oneself. With my Yamaha home theater receiver, the 0.5dB steps in volume make an audible difference, though very slight.

Clearly, you should learn more before posting, and should be more careful in reading things.
 
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Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Before you begin to insult me, click the link you provided for the bookshelf speaker. http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/Leisure2SE.htm It does not provide specs on that page. However, on that page, there is a link to a review of that speaker. In the text of that review, it lists the sensitivity of this speaker as 87-dB SPL for 1 watt at 1 meter. Perhaps the reviewer is incorrect but I gathered my information directly from that link you provided. Maybe KellieAVdesign failed to read the review they posted before creating their own page. Here is another review from which I gathered the 150w power handling. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/aurum_cantus_leisure_loudspeakers.htm Perhaps that reviewer is wrong too. Or maybe the manufacturer's own website will vindicate me. http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_leisure2semkii.htm

Also, your link to the Moon Goddess did not provide specs. They are no longer listed on the manufacturer's website, so I had to look on the web to find something. Here is what I found, which lists 87dB for right or wrong. http://www.cattylink.com/page127.html

I think my reading skills are fine given the information available on out of production products. And you should check yourself before launching personal insults.

To get back to the point I was originally trying to make

The volume that speakers can generate is directly related to the electrical specifications of each speaker as dictated by the designer. Each needs to be evaluated on it's own specifications. There is no "usually" and the cabinet design has no relation to a speakers volume.
You see, now we are discussing the electrical properties of the speakers in question, not the cabinet design, to determine the maximum potential volume of speakers (as well as the mechanical properties of the drivers themselves). When I say please stop, I mean please stop the generalities that bookshelves are usually this or towers are usually that. Each speaker must be considered according to it's own specs, generalities be damned.

Also, at lower levels (-60dB), I find that an indicated 3dB increase is not noticeable at all. At normal levels (-30dB), it takes a full 3dB to make an audible difference. Near reference level, an indicated 3dB increase becomes clearly audible. The dB scale is not linear. I shall leave the common threshold of audible increase to the excellent knowledge of our forum members rather than the 5 listeners in that link (in another thread perhaps).
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Before you begin to insult me, click the link you provided for the bookshelf speaker. http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/products/Leisure2SE.htm It does not provide specs on that page. However, on that page, there is a link to a review of that speaker. In the text of that review, it lists the sensitivity of this speaker as 87-dB SPL for 1 watt at 1 meter. Perhaps the reviewer is incorrect but I gathered my information directly from that link you provided. Maybe KellieAVdesign failed to read the review they posted before creating their own page. Here is another review from which I gathered the 150w power handling. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/aurum_cantus_leisure_loudspeakers.htm Perhaps that reviewer is wrong too. Or maybe the manufacturer's own website will vindicate me. http://www.aurumcantus.com/aurumcantu-loudspeaker/loudspeaker_leisure2semkii.htm

Also, your link to the Moon Goddess did not provide specs. They are no longer listed on the manufacturer's website, so I had to look on the web to find something. Here is what I found, which lists 87dB for right or wrong. http://www.cattylink.com/page127.html

I think my reading skills are fine given the information available on out of production products. And you should check yourself before launching personal insults.

To get back to the point I was originally trying to make



You see, now we are discussing the electrical properties of the speakers in question, not the cabinet design, to determine the maximum potential volume of speakers (as well as the mechanical properties of the drivers themselves). When I say please stop, I mean please stop the generalities that bookshelves are usually this or towers are usually that. Each speaker must be considered according to it's own specs, generalities be damned.

Also, at lower levels (-60dB), I find that an indicated 3dB increase is not noticeable at all. At normal levels (-30dB), it takes a full 3dB to make an audible difference. Near reference level, an indicated 3dB increase becomes clearly audible. The dB scale is not linear. I shall leave the common threshold of audible increase to the excellent knowledge of our forum members rather than the 5 listeners in that link (in another thread perhaps).
I mentioned the fact that there are different versions of the Leisure 2SE in post 7, which is the first post in this thread in which they were introduced as an example. I even described some of the differences there. The version on the manufacturer's web site is not the same as the U.S. version (because they are selling worldwide, not simply the U.S. exclusive version), which has the specifications I listed, and most of which are in the brochure to which I provided a link.

Judging from the current condition of Kellsie's web site, it looks like they may have gone out of business, so there may no longer be any U.S. versions being made. From a business standpoint, I can see that it could be a serious problem trying to sell better speakers for more money when they have the same name as cheaper speakers one can get off of eBay and other such places. Kellsie did not help this with their indiscriminate linking to reviews of whatever version of the Leisure 2SE that were favorable. (One of the ways one can tell is if they measure the frequency response and there is an upper bass hump in the curve, as that is something that was corrected for the U.S. version; the U.S. version uses a smaller, flared port and a different crossover, and a slightly different woofer than the original international version of the Leisure 2SE).

I agree that one should look at the numbers. But if one does that, one will see that generally speaking, tower speakers in the same line will tend to be more sensitive, handle more power, and produce deeper bass. Of course, a generality is no guarantee, and so it is not a good idea to buy based solely on generalities. Indeed, that is the point of some of what I posted previously:

"Keep in mind, these are generalities..." and "Now, I recommend that you not get too hung up on generalities" from post 6, and "The long and the short of it, in my opinion, is this: Do not buy based upon whether it is two-way or three-way or four-way or whatever-way; buy based on actual performance, and on aspects of the performance that will actually matter in the use to which one will put the speaker (by that second point I mean things like, do not worry about the deepest bass of a speaker if you are going to actually be using a subwoofer for those frequencies anyway)" from post 7.

Keep in mind, the original question was about whether or not to buy bookshelf or floorstanding speakers. I don't think that one should go about it that way (unless space requirements demand it), and should judge by actual performance. Even so, within a particular model line, the generalities I stated are correct (though, being only generalities, they are not without exceptions).


As for the decibel claims, there you are simply wrong. In double blind tests, people have demonstrated the ability to hear less than 0.5dB differences, and with my volume control on my home theater receiver, which steps in 0.5dB increments, I can always hear the difference one step makes, no matter how loud or soft I play it. If you have a receiver or preamp with steps marked in dB, I recommend you try it for yourself. Or if you have any friends with such gear, go try it out at their place. Or go to an audio shop that sells such gear and play with the volume control on one that is hooked up to speakers, and discover for yourself that you can hear much less than a 3dB difference anywhere within normal music listening volumes (unless there is something very peculiar about your hearing in particular).


How much power it takes for a 1 decibel increase varies according to how loud we are talking about, as the decibel is related to human hearing, and is not a linear measurement.

On the decibel scale, the smallest audible sound (near total silence) is 0 dB. A sound 10 times more powerful is 10 dB. A sound 100 times more powerful than near total silence is 20 dB. A sound 1,000 times more powerful than near total silence is 30 dB.​

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question124.htm

Notice, in sound, an increase of 10dB is 10 times the acoustic power. Yet each 10 fold increase is heard as the same amount of difference; in other words, as the sound level increases, human hearing becomes less and less sensitive to noticing changes. But that is reflected in the decibel scale (and is why it is used), so that a 10dB increase is heard by humans as the same, even though it isn't the same power difference at different levels. And this explains why it is that it takes a doubling of power to add 3dB to the sound, and 10 times the power to add 10dB to the sound.

If human hearing were linear with respect to this issue, then adding 10 watts would be the same no matter what power level we were talking about, as it does increase the air movement the same (with an idealized speaker), but due to human hearing being less and less sensitive as volume increases, it takes more and more to make a difference that humans can notice.
 
digicidal

digicidal

Full Audioholic
The volume that speakers can generate is directly related to the electrical specifications of each speaker as dictated by the designer. Each needs to be evaluated on it's own specifications. There is no "usually" and the cabinet design has no relation to a speakers volume.
Although perhaps technically correct in your description, this statement is very confusing and potentially very wrong. Are you saying that for any given driver, the cabinet design has nothing to do with the volume specifically? (In which case I might agree with you - since a speaker without a driving current will indeed be silent no matter what the cabinet).

Or are you saying that the cabinet has nothing to do with how loud a speaker can be - in which case I disagree completely! With any given driver, the cabinet has probably more to do with how loud that driver (at any given power level) will be than anything else. This is exactly why horn-loaded designs are so much more sensitive than sealed or ported bass-reflex designs.

I'm not saying you are wrong, because I'm unaware of what you meant to say... but simply taken at it's face value I would disagree mightily. I would actually say that the cabinet design has the MOST to do with how loud any given tranducer will be at a specific input voltage and distance. If you take one driver and put it in a bass-reflex cabinet, a TL cabinet, a sealed cabinet, and a horn-loaded cabinet and feed it 10W of power... the differences will be dramatic.

I would add to the earlier statement by pyrrho (and in agreement) that usually (although not necessarily) manufacturers use larger drivers in their towers than in their bookshelf speakers. And (again usually although not always) larger drivers are more sensitive than their smaller counterparts.

Add to that the larger cabinets allow for lower tuning due to the larger internal volumes and although it might not be actually louder overall at 1W/1M... it will definitely be louder at lower frequencies
 

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