KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I would go with a bigger gauge version of my oval 12 which is oval 9. Its preferable if you're going to go with a big speaker like an 803d or 802d. It will give you more bass.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ANBIOV9 8PBNSP

So, after investing $1000 plus in these, do you do something special at the terminals to "maintain the purity" as it were? Doesn't "weakest link" apply?

Have you looked at the wire inside your amp going to the speaker terminals or the wire inside any of the speakers you plan to buy? I think you'll have to look well beyond B&W flagship speakers to find a product compliant with your perception of what matters. Too bad B&W doesn't understand what matters!

Salk builds speakers to order. If you really think a particular wire is best, he'd be happy to modify it to your spec. (assuming the wires will fit onto his components okay). You might also want to skip the terminals and have him run the wires to the crossover and out the back long enough to go to your amp so you don't have the interruption of the terminals. At least that way you will get a quality speaker which is also consistent with your notions about wire.

I don't, I'm afraid, know where you will find a HT pre/pro or mainstream amp which doesn't use standard copper wire. Those electronics designers are about as ignorant as it gets regarding using the right components to assure good sound. Hafler, Harman, McIntosh, Pass, Carver, Levinson, Russel - what a bunch of hacks!:mad:
If nothing else you can probably find someone who, for a price, will claim to replace all internal wiring and weld the cover on so you'll never know the difference!

I do hope you find what you are looking for, but this is probably the wrong place to ask for the type of advice you'd like to hear.

Your room offers a much better venue for improving SQ!
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Do you honestly think your music was recorded on 9 gauge speaker hose?


The mics recording your music probably used 18 gauge wire.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Open up those Paradigm Studios, or Sigs, or a pair of 802's and look at the voice coils, the speaker magnets, the crossovers, and the connections between them. Dozens (hundreds?) of feet of normal copper wire.

But hey: you've measured. No doubt with an oscilloscope full of generic copper wiring? Audioholics is pretty big on measurements: why don't you post your data and interpretation?
Sorry to be redundant, I didn't realize you had already posted this.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I guess there is no need to try things for myself, I'll just listen to o'l Roger he knows everything. I don't need measurements to prove a point my friend so NO I don't have measurements that I have done myself. However I do have one article from a person who was a sceptic. I apoligize for the quality of the screen shots.
So your "have to try things yourself" article is "some guy wrote something"?

No response to how much of your gear is already normal copper wire?

Where are you at: Perhaps a local audioholic could give you a hand with at least an ABX test.
 
K

Kaz-maN

Junior Audioholic
So your "have to try things yourself" article is "some guy wrote something"?

No response to how much of your gear is already normal copper wire?

Where are you at: Perhaps a local audioholic could give you a hand with at least an ABX test.
You know what since we're still at this, I will tell you a story. I used to be a sceptic about all this bs with speaker wire, and power conditioners. I always just thought there was just no way it would make a difference. I came into to my local dealer one day "Sound Company" San Diego, CA (look them up give them a call if you don't believe me) I came in to ask them what could I do to get more performance from my sound system. This was at a time when I was just using some $.25per/ft 14gauge speaker wire with my studio 60's let alone a conditioner. Well sure enough he points to the floor where a richard gray 400pro power conditioner was sitting plugged into to the wall where the B&W 804s demo was. "You should try that he says" I just looked at him with a dumb look on my face "what the hell is that?". He pretty much just told me in a nut shell to just plug that in to the wall. You don't even have to plug anything directly into it because it runs in parallel, so anything on the same breaker will benefit from it. So still at this point I think the guy is nuts. He went to the back room got a brand new one sealed in a box still. He just said "take this home plug it for a couple of hours, and make sure there are no surge protectors plugged into this thing or you'll basically kill what this thing is all about. You don't even have to buy it he says.". Keep in mind I had a friend of mine visiting me out of state and he was with me witnessing this. So okay I took up his offer because hey he's not charging me, and worse case scenerio I bring it back.

Took it home plugged it in for about 15mins. I had no patience so I turned on my xbox and tv. My buddy and I jaws dropped. I refused to believe it, and I swear to you by this. I was literally stubborn just as anyone would be about some ugly looking box that looks like a car battery. I could not believe, and you could clearly see this thing working. At this point, "okay you can see it working, but can we hear it working". I remember exactly the song I first tested this thing out with. It was Massive Attack, song: Angel. I was astonished to even hear a difference. The biggest thing you hear is how much lower the noise floor is. This basically results in better seperation of instruments, etc ultimately leading to better imaging.

And blah blah blah. Of course eventually I was proven wrong about speaker wire as well.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to dip into the ultra high-end audio world… I've exposed myself to some higher end audio from the likes of Wilson audio, Magico, B&W, Sonus Faber, Magnepan, Vandersteen, etc… Avalon Acoustics… Just curious to know, what are your guys impressions of the Avalons?

Because audio seems to be such hit or miss, my speaker budget is very broad. I'm thinking of a budget anywhere between $10-$30k an the absolute max. I figure I should expand it to keep my options open to know what I'm getting into. Keep in mind, this range is just for speakers. Do you guys have any advice for me when going to this high-end of audio? Thanks guys, your advice is very much appreciated.
Let's stick to speakers. Everyone can agree that different speakers clearly do make a great difference in sound quality. Let's avoid debating about whether different cables matter, because we will not likely convince anyone who holds opposing opinions on this controversial subject, and more importantly, it is secondary to the OP's question about speakers.

Others have recommended Salk, and I'm adding mine as well. I think you should look into the Salk Veracity HT2-TL. They are among the best speakers I've heard, at any price. Salk does excellent wood finishing on all his speakers, and will gladly do custom work. These speakers are sold only by internet direct and there are no dealers. Contact Jim Salk directly, or post a question here if you want to find owners nearby you for an audition. If you are easy driving distance from Washington DC/Maryland you can arrange to hear these speakers in the home of their designer, Dennis Murphy. That's always a fun experience for any speaker junkie.

For a good review of these speakers, read here.

I'm unfamiliar with Avalon Acoustics, but their speakers look interesting. FWIW, the ceramic midrange driver in the IME, Eidolon Diamond & Vision, and Indra models looks similar or identical the midrange used in the new Salk SoundScape10 and SoundScapeS12 top of the line models.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Let me share a story of my own. I have power conditioners, in he form of high-end ups's, on some of my gear. There is no measureable (to my fr tests) or audiable differences. Both of the audio stores I audition at use high end cables and power conditioners. I have noticed none of what you are talking about.

The custom builders here see no suport, an the idea defies both the elecrical engineering concepts involved and dbx testing, and all available measurements. But don't let that stop you.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Kas-Man, everything you've said is all anecdotal and unscientific. Power conditioners are not magic.

First of all.. there is no explanation for "lowering noise floor" because if you know how a receiver power supply works, you'd know that it doesn't care WHAT you feed it. what they do do, however, is limit dynamic range.

The only value in those power things is to protect your equipment.

And regarding wires, just because you believe you saw a difference doesn't mean you actually did. It just means you got duped, as embarrasing as that is. If you did a double blind test you'd be royally UNABLE to tell the difference.
 
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C

cornelius

Full Audioholic
Hey Kaz-maN - I don't think that I've heard the Avalons - I may have heard them at a Hi-Fi show at some point, but I can't remember for sure, so I can't comment on them.

But since people are listing recos, KEW mentioned Harbeth, and I'd also recommend them. A pair of Super 5's or 40.1's with some P3 surrounds would be an excellent set up. If you happen to be traveling in Europe or Asia, try to audition some - they're very popular there... They don't look like Avalons, but they more than deliver the goods.
 
B

Boerd

Full Audioholic
My advice is that you're wasting money and it's not just a matter of bang for buck, it's a matter of bang. Once you get into the ultra high end you're often LOSING performance in exchange for pretty cabinets.
GranteedEV - you got that right.

Another ideea for you Kaz-maN - go active with DEQX and some crossover-less speakers like SALK. You can buy good and cheap amplification from Emotiva.
Or Martin Logan Summit X - oh boy I love them.
 
K

Kaz-maN

Junior Audioholic
Let's stick to speakers. Everyone can agree that different speakers clearly do make a great difference in sound quality. Let's avoid debating about whether different cables matter, because we will not likely convince anyone who holds opposing opinions on this controversial subject, and more importantly, it is secondary to the OP's question about speakers.

Others have recommended Salk, and I'm adding mine as well. I think you should look into the Salk Veracity HT2-TL. They are among the best speakers I've heard, at any price. Salk does excellent wood finishing on all his speakers, and will gladly do custom work. These speakers are sold only by internet direct and there are no dealers. Contact Jim Salk directly, or post a question here if you want to find owners nearby you for an audition. If you are easy driving distance from Washington DC/Maryland you can arrange to hear these speakers in the home of their designer, Dennis Murphy. That's always a fun experience for any speaker junkie.

For a good review of these speakers, read here.

I'm unfamiliar with Avalon Acoustics, but their speakers look interesting. FWIW, the ceramic midrange driver in the IME, Eidolon Diamond & Vision, and Indra models looks similar or identical the midrange used in the new Salk SoundScape10 and SoundScapeS12 top of the line models.
I will look into it. I'm usually a bit sceptical about online dealers, but I'll take your word for it since people bring it up so much. Thank you

Hey Kaz-maN - I don't think that I've heard the Avalons - I may have heard them at a Hi-Fi show at some point, but I can't remember for sure, so I can't comment on them.

But since people are listing recos, KEW mentioned Harbeth, and I'd also recommend them. A pair of Super 5's or 40.1's with some P3 surrounds would be an excellent set up. If you happen to be traveling in Europe or Asia, try to audition some - they're very popular there... They don't look like Avalons, but they more than deliver the goods.
I won't be anywhere near asia, but I'll do some research. Thank you
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I will look into it. I'm usually a bit sceptical about online dealers, but I'll take your word for it since people bring it up so much. Thank you
I can understand your skepticism. I've done business with Jim Salk, I've met him twice, and I've personally known Salk's designer for about 6 years. I may not be unbiased :rolleyes:, but I can assure you Salk is not only honest, but among the best people in the business. That opinion is widely shared by his other customers.

FWIW, I've heard some Joseph Audio speakers, and except for their much higher prices, I think they share a lot of similarities with Salk.
 
K

Kaz-maN

Junior Audioholic
Kas-Man, everything you've said is all anecdotal and unscientific. Power conditioners are not magic.

First of all.. there is no explanation for "lowering noise floor" because if you know how a receiver power supply works, you'd know that it doesn't care WHAT you feed it. what they do do, however, is limit dynamic range.

The only value in those power things is to protect your equipment.

And regarding wires, just because you believe you saw a difference doesn't mean you actually did. It just means you got duped, as embarrasing as that is. If you did a double blind test you'd be royally UNABLE to tell the difference.
You do know that Rogers speakers use Cardas internal chassis wiring, but wait wire doesn't make a difference. Plus after talking to a buddy who has been in the audio industry since the early 70's basically mentioned that pretty much everything in those days was not very good with the exception of magneplanars. Infact he even went on saying that wire was something you made yourself if you had hifi equipment. Whether it was lamp shade wire, or from extention cords that is what they most commonly used. Alot of Rogers claims are from a long long time ago when yeah I could understand that wire wouldn't make a difference in hifi gear. The truth is times have changed. I don't think NASA, and many others would higher Analysis-plus if wire didn't matter.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
You do know that Rogers speakers use Cardas internal chassis wiring, but wait wire doesn't make a difference.
You are Cherry-picking your authorities.

You do know that Harmon Kardon doesn't use exotic wire? Nor does Paradigm, nor Bowers & Wilkins. but wait: wire makes a difference.

Plus after talking to a buddy who has been in the audio industry since the early 70's basically mentioned that pretty much everything in those days was not very good with the exception of magneplanars. Infact he even went on saying that wire was something you made yourself if you had hifi equipment. Whether it was lamp shade wire, or from extention cords that is what they most commonly used.
Well, if "a buddy" said so.

Alot of Rogers claims are from a long long time ago when yeah I could understand that wire wouldn't make a difference in hifi gear. The truth is times have changed. I don't think NASA, and many others would higher Analysis-plus if wire didn't matter.
Mr.Russell is still manufacturing speakers today... with normal wire.

What does NASA have to do with HiFi? They are running current to a diode in a pulse laser... and even then: did NASA have an issue with the signal coming out of the copper they had been using? No, they just wanted a different shape and size (silver is a better conductor than copper: so smaller gauges can be used for a given load).

Have you looked at the wire in your Paradigms yet?
 
abefroeman

abefroeman

Audioholic
Some thoughts

I haven’t heard any speakers in your price range. So I can't provide specific recommendations. But as someone who also mostly saves, I hope to be in a position to feel comfortable spending that kind of money on this hobby in the next decade or so (age 28 now).

Personally, I like to heavily research big purchases, it part of the fun of ownership and the only reason i'm on this website. I wouldn't undertake a major speaker purchase without a strong understanding of edge diffraction, point source, crossover slopes, time alignment, etc. And most importantly, to understand how the speakers you are considering address these major design issues that are presented to the speaker designer.

The obvious part is to get out and listen for yourself. Get a lot of good suggestions from people here, but get out there and listen. Fly across the country if you have to. Its $30k for god sakes.

also check out dynaudio confidence 4s, i hear they are awesome :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Wilson audio, Magico, B&W, Sonus Faber, Magnepan, Vandersteen, etc...
Yeah, I think personal tastes play the biggest factor.

What did you think of the Magnepan?

Or MartinLogan?

I have not been as fortunate as you in terms of having the opportunity to listen to Wilson Audio, Magico, Sonus Faber, Magnepan, or Vandersteen.

But based on my experience, the dipole/bipole speakers or "hybrid" speakers tend to sound a lot better to me than traditional front radiating box speakers.

For example, I think the MartinLogan Vantage sounded better than the B&W 800D & 802D, Dali Euphonia MS5, & Krell Resolution 1.

I've listened to the RBH T2P/T3Ps, and I thought they sounded better than those speakers I mentioned also.

I think you owe it to yourself to look into dipole speakers like the Linkwitz Orions and other designs, instead of the old traditional front radiating box speakers.

I plan on listening to the Linkwitz Orion (at someone's house) and the Revel Salon2 (at dealer) one day soon.

As other members here have mentioned, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of INSANITY.

I have never loved the sound of any traditional front radiating box speakers I've listened to, but I keep on trying.:D

I've told myself that the Salon2 will be the "last" front radiating box speakers I will audition.:D
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah, I think personal tastes play the biggest factor.

What did you think of the Magnepan?

Or MartinLogan?

I have not been as fortunate as you in terms of having the opportunity to listen to Wilson Audio, Magico, Sonus Faber, Magnepan, or Vandersteen.

But based on my experience, the dipole/bipole speakers or "hybrid" speakers tend to sound a lot better to me than traditional front radiating box speakers.

For example, I think the MartinLogan Vantage sounded better than the B&W 800D & 802D, Dali Euphonia MS5, & Krell Resolution 1.

I've listened to the RBH T2P/T3Ps, and I thought they sounded better than those speakers I mentioned also.

I think you owe it to yourself to look into dipole speakers like the Linkwitz Orions and other designs, instead of the old traditional front radiating box speakers.

I plan on listening to the Linkwitz Orion (at someone's house) and the Revel Salon2 (at dealer) one day soon.

As other members here have mentioned, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of INSANITY.

I have never loved the sound of any traditional front radiating box speakers I've listened to, but I keep on trying.:D

I've told myself that the Salon2 will be the "last" front radiating box speakers I will audition.:D
Why not track down a salon1... it's bipole :eek:
 
A

audio0947

Audiophyte
Kaz,
As I have posted at several other forums over the past 5 years with no takers I will hand a third party $10,000 and will travel to you with my $1 per foot speaker wire in any matching length and if you can tell the difference blind 70% of the time its yours. Of course you will need to match my 10k.
I'm not joking.
Do some real research and you will find that spending a large amount on wire is a waste of money unless you are rich and are doing it for the looks cause the sound will be the same.
Several high end speaker makers use expensive internal wire but its just marketing and the vast majority simply use copper.
 
A

audio0947

Audiophyte
I'll leave it alone after this post, just hate seeing misinformation out there costing people money that WOULD make a difference elsewhere. The below is from a post of mine at AVS a while ago. This guy was told that silver cables were much better and that is why he should pay several thousand dollars for them.

We have been through this before so I will post the same thing I did in the Dynaudio thread 6 months ago. For speaker wire I would advise you to buy Belden 10 gauge 5T00UP. To uback that spent several thousand dollars on wire please read. If you are very rich and dont care what you spend then bless you but if not then I'm sorry to say you got taken on that wire. I would have bought a pair of C1 or larger contours, spent a hundred bucks on cable and still had money left over and a better sounding system. I have 60k worth of speakers in my home and about 1k worth of wire, trust me if I had 30k in wire and 30k in speakers my systems would not sound as good.

Speaker cable is a bit different from interconnect cables, in several respects. Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required. The low impedance of the circuit also tips the balance of concern from capacitance, which is important in interconnect use, to inductance, which, while a concern, can be controlled only to a limited degree. The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; the lower the resistance of the cable, the lower the contribution of the speaker cable's resistance to the damping factor, and the flatter the frequency response will be. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, and (barring a really odd design, which may introduce various undesirable effects) little else that matters. The answer to keeping conductivity high is simple: the larger the wire, the lower the resistance, and the higher the conductivity.
There is one respect in which silver is a better material for cable construction than copper: it is slightly (about 5%) less resistive (that is, more conductive) than annealed copper. "Resistance" is the property of any material which causes some of the electricity that flows through it to be converted into heat, and it's fair to say that resistance, in cables, is a bad thing--the less the better. All else being equal, lower resistance ought to be a good thing, and therefore one might think that silver would make for a better cable than copper.

That would indeed be so, but there are some other factors to take into account. First, the resistive loss in high-quality copper cables is already extremely small, because copper, though marginally less conductive than silver, is an extremely conductive metal. For example, Belden 1694A's (.80 per foot) center conductor resistance is 6.4 ohms per thousand feet. In a very long home theater run of 50 feet, then, the resistance of the conductor is 0.32 ohms, representing a minuscule cause of signal loss in a 75 ohm impedance circuit; a solid silver conductor would drop this resistance by about five percent, resulting in a truly infinitesimal improvement.

This infinitesimal improvement might be worth something under extreme circumstances, all else being equal--but all else is rarely equal. First, silver is a more brittle material than copper, compromising the cable's flex-life. To solve this problem, silver is often plated over a copper wire--diminishing the conductivity benefit. Second, the conductivity benefit, as often as not, is offset by a reduction in wire gauge. Going from an 18 AWG conductor to a 20 AWG conductor, for example, results in an increase in resistance of over 50%; this swamps the conductivity benefit of silver, so that an 18 AWG copper conductor is more conductive, not less, than a 20 AWG silver or silver-plated conductor. I use and would advise using Belden 10 gauge wire, good luck finding 10 gauge solid silver wire for less than $500 per foot. When the comparison is between full-sized copper cables and silver-plated mini-coax or wire of tiny gauge, like those one sees in many popular silver cable products, there's no contest; full-sized copper cables are dramatically more conductive, silver or no silver.

There's a lot of mystery surrounding cables, much of it created by those in the business of selling them, and my experience is that the higher the asking price is, the deeper the mystery usually runs. But the fact is that basic, well-known aspects of an audio/video cable are the fundamentals which control whether it conveys a signal poorly, satisfactorily, or exceptionally well. Electrons don't know how much you spend on cable; they only know what your cable looks like inside.
 
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