Big room...thin speakers

F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I wanted to follow up with some thoughts about the receiver as well.

Yet again, seperating the bass would definitely be the way to go if your dad wants to use a receiver rather than seperates with a more powerful seperate amplifier. Trying to drive a full range signal with a receiver would NOT be a good idea and would not produce good results at all in a large room. Again, bass requires moving a lot of air. That means either moving woofers with a large physical area, or moving woofers a great distance in and out (the excursion) or both! Either method requires a LOT of power and a receiver just won't deliver it.

But have a subwoofer produce the bass instead, and once again, the story changes! Now the subwoofer uses its own internal amp to drive its own large woofer. Now the receiver only needs to power the smaller drivers of the slim speakers and only has to worry about frequencies from 80Hz on up. This is a much lighter load. And a receiver will be much better able to handle this task!

If you're looking for any receiver recommendations, I really would have to give the nod to Denon right now. For one, their power section (amps) are solid. I'm sure you've read reviews - Denon has a very good reputation for solid, well performing amplifiers in their receivers.

But more than that, with their 09 series lineup, they've really added some excellent new features IMO - almost all of them having to do with Audyssey.

In a large, open room like this, you're going to have some odd room interactions with the sound - it's inevitable really. While the tip top solution involves paying a professional to come in and do a real time analysis, the next best solution is to use a very good auto-setup/calibration. And in that field, right now, Audyssey is the tops - without question IMO. Yamaha has their YPAO, Pioneer has their MCACC, Harman Kardon has their EzSet/EQ - none of them are as good as Audyssey IMO. I'm just one guy who's tried them all, but that is my opinion. Not saying the others are bad, just saying I think Audyssey is the best. But there's more as well!

Audyssey has also introduced some new technologies: Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. Strictly speaking, you may not want to use these features since they do alter the original signal, but in my experience with them, they most certainly can enhance enjoyment in a lot of situations.

So the Audyssey technologies start with MultEQ, which as I said, I think is the best auto-setup/EQ for home receivers right now. Some models also add BassXT, which ends up making the name MultEQ XT, and in this situation, that could be a great feature to have as well. BassXT extends Audyssey equalization down to the subwoofer and also adds a certain level of protection. During setup, BassXT examines the subwoofer's response and essentially learns its limits. This allows the receiver to send an EQ'd subwoofer signal that can produce flatter frequency response. It will also stop short of sending signals that the subwoofer cannot reproduce without bottoming out, so that is where the protection comes in.

Dynamic EQ is a fantastic feature IMO. Basically, our hearing is the most "flat" at 85dB. In other words, regardless of what frequency is played, if it is played at 85dB, we more or less perceive it to be equally as loud as any other frequency played at 85dB. And that is why 85dB is "reference level".

But below 85dB, our perception of sound is not at all "flat". The quieter the volume level, the worse our ability to hear bass and very high frequencies. Basically, we are evolved to best hear mid-range - which makes perfect sense, since that is the realm of the human voice.

What Dynamic EQ does is intelligently adjust the frequency response. Most people find a median 85dB listening level to be too loud. It may be "reference level", but our typical "enjoyment level" is closer to 75dB. This normally creates a problem, now the mid-range is pleasing in volume, but we're actually losing bass and treble. The signal is all there, but our ears are blanking some of it out. Dynamic EQ adjusts the response so that it once again sounds flat to our ears. So now you can listen at a more pleasing volume level (ie. quieter) but still hear the balance between all frequencies from low to high the way it was intended.

Dynamic Volume is a great feature, but only sometimes IMO. For serious listening, turn it off. But for TV watching, I think it's awesome! Dynamic Volume addresses the common problem where TV ads sound WAY louder than the program and where some channels are way louder than others. I think we've all come across this annoyance and Dynamic Volume largely solves it. This is not just straight up dynamic compression. This is not Dolby Night Mode where a huge amount of detail is lost. Dynamic Volume DOES compress the dynamic range - which is why for serious listening, you want to turn it off - but it does so far more intelligently than older technology and it uses MutlEQ and Dynamic EQ to retain detail while it's at work. For TV watching, I really think it works great. It's not flawless, but it goes a long way in reducing the panicked scramble for the remote to turn down the volume when a commercial comes on!

So it's awesome to see this full suit of Audyssey technologies in Denon's receivers and that is why I recommend them :)
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
Well, I have been trying to get a budget out of him and he seems set on the speakers not costing any more than 700. I'm kind of shocked because I know his orignal investment in his equipment was much more than that. He also mentioned the bose solution again. I finally told him to try them out. Bring them home and set them up and see how they sound at home. Return it immediately if your not happy. I'm curious to see how this turns out. I wonder if he will like them. Oh well. I still appreciate all the posts people added to this thread though. If I can talk him into a higher budget I will re-energize this topic. Until then I don't think there is a legit 700 solution.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Oh dear.

Maybe push the budget $148 for Ascend Sierra-1s? Hey, its your dad, tell him you will pay the difference. Just an idea.

edit: 14.25" x 7.5" x 10.5"

Link
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, he can't even get the awful awful Bose speakers for $700 :p

I think we need a refresher - what all is your dad wanting to buy for $700?

Are we talking about just wanting 2 speakers for that price? Or is he wanting 5 speakers?

I think people have really come to falsely expect miracles from technology. We see all these tiny devices now and we marvel at what they can do, but sadly, such size expectations simply do not translate to speakers. When we're talking about physical movement, size matters. And no amount of technology can bend those physics!

In a nut shell, here's the deal:

your dad can get some small or slim speakers and they can even sound good. But not for the entire frequency range and they just cannot replace full range towers.

The very best compromise is like I've said - get a great performing subwoofer and use that along with some slim or small speakers. You can do this without sacrificing a ton of quality and it could even be an upgrade in sound quality from the towers he has right now.

Can a pair of slim or small speakers and a great sub be had for $700? Kinda. But they would not be sufficient for a large room. Again, there's just no bending physics. The bass is the most difficult part, but the speakers have to be up to the task as well. A 12' listening distance is not huge, but it is fairly substantial. The sound will be from 6-12dB quieter at that distance vs being 1m away, which is the distance used for measuring.

Anyways, it's his money and I suppose he can do with it as he pleases. It's just too bad that he's willing to throw his money away on garbage, rather than spend a little bit more for genuinely good performance in addition to good looks.
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
Ok, I was poking at him a bit and he admitted that the Bose is going to cost 2K so he realizes the numbers he suggested are not going to equate to much. So, he is basically asking me to "put something together" and then he will decide from there.

Personally, I'm not against him getting the bose just to try out in his own home. Listen to them and take them back...that way there is no doubt about how they will sound. Heck, he may love them and then all of this would be for nothing. I don't personally care for Bose but it seems like they make a decent speaker...just over priced for what you get. I just don't think it is the right solution for his room.

Anyway, I guess the slate is clean right now. We know some details about his room. I don't think he is going to want to break out the speakers into to many differnt types. He already has inceiling speakers for his surrounds so that is covered. He is also pretty much in favor of the Yammy RX-V663 if we go the receiver route. It seems to me that this receiver is the price/performance leader. Maybe an Onkyo would save a few bucks but he saw my 663 and liked it. Either way, he won't spend more than what the 663 would cost so that probably limits a Denon solution. Given the same budget he would use on a Bose system and after purchasing a receiver I figure at having about $1625 to play with.

Well, we need to pick out the Left, the Right, and the Center from that money. If we can squeeze a subwoofer in there than that would be good. Now the cheaper the better. And I think "onwall" would be the best bet.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Ok, I was poking at him a bit and he admitted that the Bose is going to cost 2K so he realizes the numbers he suggested are not going to equate to much. So, he is basically asking me to "put something together" and then he will decide from there.

Personally, I'm not against him getting the bose just to try out in his own home. Listen to them and take them back...that way there is no doubt about how they will sound. Heck, he may love them and then all of this would be for nothing. I don't personally care for Bose but it seems like they make a decent speaker...just over priced for what you get. I just don't think it is the right solution for his room.

Given the same budget he would use on a Bose system and after purchasing a receiver I figure at having about $1625 to play with.

Well, we need to pick out the Left, the Right, and the Center from that money. If we can squeeze a subwoofer in there than that would be good. Now the cheaper the better. And I think "onwall" would be the best bet.
With a huge open room its a total waste of money to buy anything like bose or any kind of small, hold in your hand speakers.
As was mentioned it takes good, fairly large speakers, with good mid-bass drivers to fill that room.
Good size on-walls would be the best way to go, but they are not cheap.

The speakers I would recommend that fit all those requirements are JBL Performance Series PT800 and PC600 center. I have 5 PT800s in a room that is over 6400 cuft. Those speakers are a 3-way with an 8" mid-bass driver.
They can be had for $1050/ea on www.harmanaudio.com under "specials".
Now that is $3k for LCRs, but the sound they produce is nothing short of fabulous. And they will fill that room, completely with great sound. Sometimes they can be found on ebay or elsewhere for a bit less.

Here is a picture of one of my PT800's on-wall. The size is 24" H x 13" W x 6" D
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
Ok, just a refresher regarding the issue here. I am looking for thin speakers to fill a large room (The room is 25 x 23 x 12 high). The only change is that there is more flex in the budget now. I believe I can justify about 2K on the front speakers. Oh, and now I am getting a thumbs up for a subwoofer.

I could start a separate thread regarding the subwoofer but I will just quickly ask in here: What level of subwoofer should I look for? He doesn’t listen to loud music and he really doesn’t watch movies that often either. However, with such a large room I felt the sound from flat speakers would come off hollow without some low end assistance from a sub. With that in mind I figure he doesn’t need an SVS ultra, but a Dayton DIY would probably not be enough. Really I am shooting for around 500-700 on this part.

Finally, I found this link to an article specifically addressing flat panel speakers. Please take a look and let me know if any of these are any better/worse than the ones already suggested:

http://www.electronichouse.com/slideshow/category/5358/822

Oh…and another piece of info that might help…his Adcom seperates setup died (processor quit). Now he wants a “one-box solution”. He is leaning toward the RX-V663 (I think because he has seen mine) and would like to ensure that receiver can push these speakers without an amp. Will that be doable?

Geesh, long posting. Sorry.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I was just frightened by the fact he was looking at Bose.

In my mind I guess I have to wonder how a speaker that is designed for a small foot print can actually move enough air to fill a very large room. It seems like they would have to work extra hard to do this...and how do speaker companies over come this?
First point- be afraid. Be very afraid!

Second point is directly related to the first- some do it strictly through marketing. Have him go back after measuring the distance from the normal seating location to his speakers and move that far from the Bose "speakers".

Most use computer modeling and listening tests, some have drivers designed especially for their needs and some just use trial and error. To cover specific areas, some speakers are more directional and these are less affected by first reflections.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Combined with a sub these house the center, and have nice detail. Attach to mostt all flat paanel tvs and look "built in".
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Ok, just a refresher regarding the issue here. I am looking for thin speakers to fill a large room (The room is 25 x 23 x 12 high). The only change is that there is more flex in the budget now. I believe I can justify about 2K on the front speakers. Oh, and now I am getting a thumbs up for a subwoofer.
I'd take a look at my first rec in this thread, PSB Synchrony. I haven't heard them, but they are rather slim, and I've only heard good things. There was one poster, who has only posted one single time, but FWIW, this is what he said:
"PSB Synchrony One

I just bought a set, L, R and center. They are awesome. So detailed and sweet, yet will play to thunderous levels. Pipe organ, rock, jazz, vocals, especially female. My brother in law that pays harp, said he has never heard his recordings sound so good before, except of course the real thing...

I have been building my own since the '80's. Dynaudio drivers, Sanders elecdtrontatic etc.

I wonder why didn't buy some before. Nice looking too, and have that nice narrow footprint. I use for critical stereo listening as well as home theater. I"m hearing things I haven't heard before.

B & K video 5 and NAD T163"

I could start a separate thread regarding the subwoofer but I will just quickly ask in here: What level of subwoofer should I look for? He doesn’t listen to loud music and he really doesn’t watch movies that often either. However, with such a large room I felt the sound from flat speakers would come off hollow without some low end assistance from a sub. With that in mind I figure he doesn’t need an SVS ultra, but a Dayton DIY would probably not be enough. Really I am shooting for around 500-700 on this part.
DIY for sure will get you bang for buck. Otherwise, what can we say? Maybe a HSU 3.3 at discount in black for $594? Just one idea of many possible.

Oh…and another piece of info that might help…his Adcom seperates setup died (processor quit). Now he wants a “one-box solution”. He is leaning toward the RX-V663 (I think because he has seen mine) and would like to ensure that receiver can push these speakers without an amp. Will that be doable?

Geesh, long posting. Sorry.
Speakers first.

And, unless you are pretty darn sure about moderate volumes only, I'd look for a beefier amp section, especially with something like I've recommended. Does it HAVE to be all-in-one? Because, I sort of think that the receiver purchase should mostly be focused on features. Any features that are unnecessary can mean dollars saved, which then can be applied to an outboard amp. It doesn't require any more difficulty in usage as long as the receiver acting as pre has a 12v trigger that works in zone 1.

On that note, sure try out the 663... and if it doesn't have enough juice, add an amp. Make sure they don't push it with something like the Synchrony's however.
 
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