Big room...thin speakers

ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
My Dad wants to change up his sound system. He has a pretty big room to fill with sound. Right now he has been using some old Energy speakers and he is tired of the footprint they take up. Anyway, his room is pretty big...it opens up to almost the entire house and there are vaulted ceilings too. So, I told him it will be hard to get something that can fill that space with decent sound but he is determined to try. He has even checked out the Bose display at Best Buy. He was impressed with the sound coming from those little cubes. Anyway, I explained that those stations have those little cubes about 16" away from your ear so it is easy to sound good from that distance. His huge room would be a whole other story. So, I will get room dimensions and seating distance from him soon. I will get the exact model of Energy speakers he is using too so that folks can get an idea of what he is used to listening to. In the meantime if you can point me in the direction of what I should look into I would appreciate it. I just don't see how his room could be filled with decent sound without using big ol' floorstanders.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Def Tech Mythos are tall but skinny, very sleek looking, powerful, and sound great (a bit pricey, though.)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
iveseenbetter, joe brings up a good point, often the most important point! Budget??

And just how skinny is skinny. Serious. The PSB Synchrony Two is 1.25" wider than the Mythos tower I just looked up (forgot already which model). The Synchrony 1 is yet another 1.25" wider.

Not cheap! But I've only heard great things about their performance.
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
I appreciate the speedy replies. I will take a look at those two models. I am hoping to get some more specific details from him about this tonight. I was just frightened by the fact he was looking at Bose.

In my mind I guess I have to wonder how a speaker that is designed for a small foot print can actually move enough air to fill a very large room. It seems like they would have to work extra hard to do this...and how do speaker companies over come this?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
In my mind I guess I have to wonder how a speaker that is designed for a small foot print can actually move enough air to fill a very large room. It seems like they would have to work extra hard to do this...and how do speaker companies over come this?
More drivers I suppose. Also, with the narrower speakers of today, there is step diffraction that makes the midbass or bass weaker. So, what these companies do is lower the impedance to provide more juice at those frequencies. I believe that it might often be the minimal impedance of a typical modern tower. AFAIK, to the best of my current knowledge.

BTW, the specs for Syn 2: -3db at 36hz, 4ohms minimum as well as nominal, sensitivity anechoic 88db, in-room 90 db.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
What about inwalls? What is your budget? What does he use to power the speakers? Does he have a subwoofer?
 
jcPanny

jcPanny

Audioholic Ninja
Speaker options

On-wall or in-wall speakers can help maximize asthetics and still offer decent performance. Even nice bookshelf speakers with a good sub will look smaller than floorstander even though they take up the same amount of space.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The most difficult frequencies to deal with when it comes to a very large room are the mid-bass, bass and sub-bass. From the midrange on up, you don't have to worry as much about "filling" the space. You can use more directional speakers (line arrays, horn loaded, ring radiator) and then your only worry is enough dynamic head room to reach 105 dB peaks without distortion at the seating distance.

All of this is to say that the best solution for your father is going to involve probably two very capable subwoofers - perhaps augmenting them with a mid-bass module and then focusing on getting some very efficient and directional "satellites" to handle the midrange and upper frequencies.

So the midrange and up can be handled by in-wall, on-wall or smaller sized speakers - provided they still have enough output and dynamic range for the seating distance. But this is much easier to find than trying to obtain full range speakers that can genuinely fill the room with mid-bass and lower as well while having a small footprint.

Divide and conquer ;)

As others have said, we don't know what the budget is hear. But the bass and sub-bass are somewhat easy in the sense that between HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs, Epik or AV123, it's easy to get some massively powerful, extremely accurate subwoofers for relatively low prices. These definitely are LARGE subwoofers though, so they won't do much for eliminating footprint concerns. On the plus side though, many of them come with beautiful finish options and could most certainly be used AS furniture. Placed as a side table or a stand of some sort, they can be blended into the room as functional pieces of furniture, rather than just being a subwoofer.

Regardless of which one you chose, be SURE to decouple that beast with a Auralex GRAMMA or similar product. Decoupling the subwoofer from the floor beneath it makes a HUGE difference. Not only is the sound that you hear greatly improved, but with tremendous reduction of structure-borne transmission, the rest of the house gets far less of that "thud thud" annoying bass resonance. To me, decoupling the subwoofer is mandatory!

A mid-bass module could also go a long way to filling a very large space with stellar sound quality. The range from 50 to about 100 Hz is a critical region of the low frequencies and contains basically all of the musical nature of bass, rather than just the raw power and percussive and tactile nature of really low bass. The mid-bass is where all of the "warmth" and "fullness" of sound resides, so this is very often the range that is somewhat lacking in smaller primary speakers - even when mated with a subwoofer.

To that end, consider placing something like HSU's MBM-12 directly behind the seat. This too, should be decoupled from the floor with a GRAMMA. It is not small, but it can be somewhat "hidden" with a placement directly behind a seat, which is where it sounds best and is intended to be placed in any event.

With all of that low end taken care of, you can have your pick of slim or in-wall, or on-wall or otherwise physically smaller speakers. Again though, the thing to look for here will still be relatively high output capabilities that can handle high peak output volume levels with low distortion for a fairly long seating distance.

I would definitely give some consideration to RBH M-Series speakers or the thin towers or on-wall speakers from EMP as a great place to start!
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
Here is a link to a Canton Karat floor stander that has a width of 7 1/2". I own an earlier version of these and can tell you they will fill his room with sound....they are quite beautiful. These are in a graphite, or else they come in white, silver, and a couple of wood veneers. Stunning. And if the price tag of $2k is too much, they have cheaper versions as well. The Karats are also offered in bookshelf sizes that I bet would do just fine in a big room....
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
Wow! Some really great posts guys. I will throw some "Thanks" out there when I get to a computer that will actually let me do it (for some reason the function doesn't work from my work computer).

I'm working with him to define a budget. I don't think "the sky is the limit" but I think he might be willing to spend a decent penny. He is replacing some Energy Connoisseur C-6 speakers that he has had for a very long time. The room is 25 x 23 x 12 high cathedral ceiling and he sits about 12 ft back. When I discussed the option of a subwoofer to help with low end he didn't seem too enthused. His response was: "I may consider it...but I don't watch many movies". He definitely does not want to do an inwall solution which I felt was the best over all remedy.

Anyway, I am going to thumb through all the suggestions on here and see if I can get more details from him. I know I learned a lot from you guys already and it helped me decided what I need for my application but I'm having a hard time figuring out what he really wants to see happen here.

Budget and more details coming soon!
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
What about inwalls? What is your budget? What does he use to power the speakers? Does he have a subwoofer?
Inwalls are a no-go. For power he is using an Adcom amp...not sure on model. I have it here somewhere but can't find it. He is wanting to go with a new receiver though so that he can have a single box solution. He was thinking RX-V663.

I had seen some of the Martin Logan In-Wall offerings posted here before so I looked 'em up and am trying to post link to a video they have:

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/video/inwall_features.wmv



The Voyage line is around $2K a piece I think. :eek:
Much like internet porn, looks are free. :D
Love em! Can't do inwall though. Bummer. I tried to go in that direction though.

On-wall or in-wall speakers can help maximize asthetics and still offer decent performance. Even nice bookshelf speakers with a good sub will look smaller than floorstander even though they take up the same amount of space.
I'm running this by the ol' man right now. Good point.

The most difficult frequencies to deal with when it comes to a very large room are the mid-bass, bass and sub-bass. From the midrange on up, you don't have to worry as much about "filling" the space. You can use more directional speakers (line arrays, horn loaded, ring radiator) and then your only worry is enough dynamic head room to reach 105 dB peaks without distortion at the seating distance.

All of this is to say that the best solution for your father is going to involve probably two very capable subwoofers - perhaps augmenting them with a mid-bass module and then focusing on getting some very efficient and directional "satellites" to handle the midrange and upper frequencies.

So the midrange and up can be handled by in-wall, on-wall or smaller sized speakers - provided they still have enough output and dynamic range for the seating distance. But this is much easier to find than trying to obtain full range speakers that can genuinely fill the room with mid-bass and lower as well while having a small footprint.

Divide and conquer ;)

As others have said, we don't know what the budget is hear. But the bass and sub-bass are somewhat easy in the sense that between HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs, Epik or AV123, it's easy to get some massively powerful, extremely accurate subwoofers for relatively low prices. These definitely are LARGE subwoofers though, so they won't do much for eliminating footprint concerns. On the plus side though, many of them come with beautiful finish options and could most certainly be used AS furniture. Placed as a side table or a stand of some sort, they can be blended into the room as functional pieces of furniture, rather than just being a subwoofer.

Regardless of which one you chose, be SURE to decouple that beast with a Auralex GRAMMA or similar product. Decoupling the subwoofer from the floor beneath it makes a HUGE difference. Not only is the sound that you hear greatly improved, but with tremendous reduction of structure-borne transmission, the rest of the house gets far less of that "thud thud" annoying bass resonance. To me, decoupling the subwoofer is mandatory!

A mid-bass module could also go a long way to filling a very large space with stellar sound quality. The range from 50 to about 100 Hz is a critical region of the low frequencies and contains basically all of the musical nature of bass, rather than just the raw power and percussive and tactile nature of really low bass. The mid-bass is where all of the "warmth" and "fullness" of sound resides, so this is very often the range that is somewhat lacking in smaller primary speakers - even when mated with a subwoofer.

To that end, consider placing something like HSU's MBM-12 directly behind the seat. This too, should be decoupled from the floor with a GRAMMA. It is not small, but it can be somewhat "hidden" with a placement directly behind a seat, which is where it sounds best and is intended to be placed in any event.

With all of that low end taken care of, you can have your pick of slim or in-wall, or on-wall or otherwise physically smaller speakers. Again though, the thing to look for here will still be relatively high output capabilities that can handle high peak output volume levels with low distortion for a fairly long seating distance.

I would definitely give some consideration to RBH M-Series speakers or the thin towers or on-wall speakers from EMP as a great place to start!
Damn! Excellent and detailed post. Much appreciate the time you spent writing it! Lot's of good info here.
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
Here is a link to a Canton Karat floor stander that has a width of 7 1/2". I own an earlier version of these and can tell you they will fill his room with sound....they are quite beautiful. These are in a graphite, or else they come in white, silver, and a couple of wood veneers. Stunning. And if the price tag of $2k is too much, they have cheaper versions as well. The Karats are also offered in bookshelf sizes that I bet would do just fine in a big room....
I liked the Karat's I was looking at those awhile back from accessories4less.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Glad you found my post helpful :)

Just to maybe help in convincing your father: the idea that a subwoofer is mostly for movies is, sadly, a notion that a lot of people have. You might say that it's an older notion - one that came about back when everyone thought the ideal was full range speakers for music and that the only use for a subwoofer was explosions and LFE.

But times have changed, more studies have been done and we have a better understanding now of how the entire audible frequency range interacts with a room and better understanding of how we hear as well. A tremendous amount of emotional reaction comes from hearing bass frequencies and almost all music actually contains a great deal of mid-bass and lower frequencies.

Long story short, a subwoofer is just as vital - perhaps even more so - to music enjoyment as it is to movie enjoyment. The idea that we need full range speakers only in order to properly enjoy music is, like I said, an older notion and doesn't really jive with all of the modern research on hearing and sound. Dividing the duties of sound reproduction between several more specialized speakers can actually deliver to our ears a more accurate and more pleasing experience. We do not hear all frequencies in the same way, the room does not interact with all frequencies in the same way, so reproducing them all from the same location and from the same speaker does not really make a lot of sense any more ;)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
We do not hear all frequencies in the same way, the room does not interact with all frequencies in the same way, so reproducing them all from the same location and from the same speaker does not really make a lot of sense any more ;)
I think it gets a bit complex. I hear what you are saying, but one nice thing about using a pair of full range speakers is that one doesn't have to worry about phase, for instance. Then, what speakers are you combining them with? If they suffer in the midbass, and you raise the x-over point of the sub, you are going to want those subs up front next to the mains anyways.

And since this thread seems to be focused on life-style looks as a primary concern, I don't really see how an Elemental Design replete with truck bed liner finish, and a MBM sitting on a GRAMMA directly behing the couch is very sexy. And, having midbass directly behind the head . . . ? Isn't that going to be challenging in terms of localization, let alone phase?

I don't mean to bust yer ballz, but bringing up some thoughts for the sake of momentarily being a devil's advocate. :eek:
 
ivseenbetter

ivseenbetter

Senior Audioholic
I think it gets a bit complex. I hear what you are saying, but one nice thing about using a pair of full range speakers is that one doesn't have to worry about phase, for instance. Then, what speakers are you combining them with? If they suffer in the midbass, and you raise the x-over point of the sub, you are going to want those subs up front next to the mains anyways.

And since this thread seems to be focused on life-style looks as a primary concern, I don't really see how an Elemental Design replete with truck bed liner finish, and a MBM sitting on a GRAMMA directly behing the couch is very sexy. And, having midbass directly behind the head . . . ? Isn't that going to be challenging in terms of localization, let alone phase?

I don't mean to bust yer ballz, but bringing up some thoughts for the sake of momentarily being a devil's advocate. :eek:
Nope. I hear you. All good points. I think there is going to need to be a sacrifice in what my dad wants at some point. Performance vs looks. I just hope he doesn't go for looks and get the Bose! :eek:
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I think it gets a bit complex. I hear what you are saying, but one nice thing about using a pair of full range speakers is that one doesn't have to worry about phase, for instance. Then, what speakers are you combining them with? If they suffer in the midbass, and you raise the x-over point of the sub, you are going to want those subs up front next to the mains anyways.

And since this thread seems to be focused on life-style looks as a primary concern, I don't really see how an Elemental Design replete with truck bed liner finish, and a MBM sitting on a GRAMMA directly behing the couch is very sexy. And, having midbass directly behind the head . . . ? Isn't that going to be challenging in terms of localization, let alone phase?

I don't mean to bust yer ballz, but bringing up some thoughts for the sake of momentarily being a devil's advocate. :eek:
No complaints at all from me. It most definitely gets complex! But I welcome you bringing up any issues and questions, because ther is most certainly not a "one size fits all" type of solution when we're talking about real world audio.

What I'm really trying to get across here though is that we now know that it is not necessary or even ideal to use only full range 20Hz - 20kHz towers. What I'm trying to get across is that it is possible to use smaller, more aesthetically attractive speakers, so long as the mid-bass and bass are handled by more capable subwoofers.

Any bass producing speaker - any at all - is going to create modes - nulls, peaks and resonance - in any given room. If we stick with the old idea of only using full range speakers, we have no leeway when it comes to positioning really. The bass is going to be emanating from the tower speakers' positions and that is that.

Now we can do real time spectral analysis, EQ the heck out the signal, treat the room and even move the seating position. But the much more feasible approach is to simply seperate the bass frequencies. Have them reproduced by a seperate subwoofer and thus gain the freedom to place the bass producing speaker(s) in a more ideal location.

From a performance standpoint, you can actually achieve better results and do so with less struggle and ultimately less time and money.

And all of that without even touching upon physical size. Simply put, full range speakers have to be physically large. Reproducing deep bass response demands moving a lot of air and there's just no way around it.

So basically, all I'm saying is that instead of trying to find slim full range towers, it just makes so much more sense to first focus on getting a great subwoofer and then not worry about full range speakers, but rather, focus on finding some slim speakers that perform well from 80Hz-100Hz on up. That way, the compromise between looks and performance is a whole lot better. You can get the slim, attractive looks and still get very good performance! But try and obtain full range performance from a skinny tower speaker and there's just no way around the issue - you're going to sacrifice on sound quality.

More specifically for this situation - in a room that is not only large, but also open to other areas of the house, standing waves are actually less of an issue, so in a way, you'll be more able to get away with using just one subwoofer, rather than needing two. The only question becomes a matter of output though. That single subwoofer would now have to be able to pressurize the entirety of the open space. That can be extremely difficult! But the companies that I mentioned make subs that are more or less up to the task.

The quip about the HUGE and rather ugly Elemental Designs subs is apt. They are most certainly huge and ugle :p But some of the SVS, AV123 and HSU subs can actually look quite nice. Still very large in physical size, but not as ugly as the eD subs ;)

So to sum up - if you're worried about the compromise between slim looks and good performance, I'm just trying to convey that the very best solution is to seperate the bass frequencies and have them handled by a capable sub - that's all :) Slim towers just aren't going to cut it. Your dad really would have to give up a lot of performance just to meet those looks. But seperate the bass and the story changes! All of a sudden he can have his cake and eat it too! Maybe use the sub as the table...that way the cake won't end up slipping onto the floor :p
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top