Bi/tri-amping stereo speakers with a 5.1/7.1 receiver

A

anm

Audioholic Intern
shipping to India would be too high.

zumbo - I was curious about the power ratings and the calculations. I just looked at the packing of my 2 ton AC. It has a power rating of 1940Watts and has a single power supply. I am sure in case of an AC, they would have no advantage of giving higher rating.
How does that work if the calculations in that article are correct?

regards
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Coz speakers have eaten into my entire budget.
Dali Ikon 6 would cost me about $1500.
HK 3490 would cost me $670 in India - and if I get it from the US it would cost me $675 ($300 + 200 shipping + $175 customs )
HK 254 would cost $800 ($400 + 200 shipping + $200 customs)
With 254 I get extras - HD audio, HD video, option of expanding to a 5.1 (if I keep on using rears for bi-amp) or 7.1 if I don't biamp.

Can you suggest something in $300 - 500 budget that would better suite? Cost in India would be x2.

My salary per month - $1150
You did the right thing spending more on speakers. Most people can tell the difference between speakers but few can tell the difference between a $500 receiver and a $1500 one assuming both have enough power for your listening environment and speakers. They say they can but in a blind test they will fail. That being said, the 254 is not a good idea for those 5 to 6 ohm speakers. It does not have enough power for your 20X30 room and low impedance speakers.
 
A

anm

Audioholic Intern
If the calculations in this article http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/common-misconceptions-in-audio-part-i/ are correct, then is Emotiva fleecing customers by saying xpa 5 http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.html can deliver all channel driven? I have an impression that they are an honest company.

XPA5
200x5 watts @ 8 ohms
350x5 watts @ 4 ohms

Also see their UPA7.
7 channels - 4 ohm = 185 watts per channel

I am not saying that receiver companies are not giving fudged figures. They do and we consumers are all confused, spend hours on forums trying to bring out the truth.

On the other hand, the calculations in the article presents a picture that these power ratings are impossible to achieve.

regards
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If the calculations in this article http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/common-misconceptions-in-audio-part-i/ are correct, then is Emotiva fleecing customers by saying xpa 5 http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.html can deliver all channel driven? I have an impression that they are an honest company.

XPA5
200x5 watts @ 8 ohms
350x5 watts @ 4 ohms

Also see their UPA7.
7 channels - 4 ohm = 185 watts per channel

I am not saying that receiver companies are not giving fudged figures. They do and we consumers are all confused, spend hours on forums trying to bring out the truth.

On the other hand, the calculations in the article presents a picture that these power ratings are impossible to achieve.

regards
Gene used 0.4 as the overall efficiency but I believe popular class AB Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer can do better and may reach 0.6 or so but not much more. Even then, you cannot expect an amp to output 200X7 continuously without causing the line fuse to deteriorate gradually and blow eventually. The point is, ACD rating is not as important as many people think, and you have to look deeper into the fine details of the specifications before concluding what is best for your applications.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
shipping to India would be too high.

zumbo - I was curious about the power ratings and the calculations. I just looked at the packing of my 2 ton AC. It has a power rating of 1940Watts and has a single power supply. I am sure in case of an AC, they would have no advantage of giving higher rating.
How does that work if the calculations in that article are correct?

regards
In North America, the outdoor unit (compressor motor) of a 2 ton AC will likely be fed by a 220 to 240V dedicated circuit. A 30A 230V circuit is good for 6900 VA and will have no problem powering an unit rated 3450W even if the overall efficiency is as low as 50% (typically much higher).
 
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F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I am considering hk 254/ 354 - they do have pre-amp outs.
So is it possible to run them in stereo mode, split front left/ right pre-out to avrs front and rear amp channels - and then biamp the stereo speakers.

I am assuming each channel is a different power supply to speaker, bi-amping this way should allow speaker to draw more current.

regards
That's a poor assumption. I don't believe any A/V receivers have separate power supplies for each channel. Secondly, be aware that tweeters don't need much power. A typical tweeter in your A/V system will draw only milliwatts of power. Relieving the amplifier of milliwatts by biamplification isn't going to make any difference even if you have separate power supplies.

The home audio business takes a lot of issues from pro audio that don't matter a whit in a home audio system and build the molehills into mountains to add features and marketing nonsense. This is one of those. Don't biamplify with a receiver. It CANNOT make any difference and only complicates the system with more connections. It can't do any good. It has the potential of doing something bad.

Let me give you a good example of some of the nonsense that creeps into home audio from pro audio. In the 1990's it was common to see a phase switch on a high end preamplifier. No, it didn't change the phase on one channel. It changed it on both channels of a stereo pair.

Recording engineers understand that it is possible to get some cancellation when one or more microphones are out of phase with the others. Even audiophiles understand how having one speaker out of phase with another causes cancellation. However, the key is being out of phase with the others. Changing the phase on one thing does nothing. You would need to change the phase on one thing when compared to another thing. Changing the phase of the entire preamplifier only adds complexity to the unit without even a chance of mattering sonically.

Yet, the high end magazine reviewers claimed to be able to hear sonic differences between the two phases. Pure placebo effect and nonsense, of course, but it motivated the manufacturers to put in the phase switching.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
shipping to India would be too high.
The link to the player was just for giggles.

zumbo - I was curious about the power ratings and the calculations. I just looked at the packing of my 2 ton AC. It has a power rating of 1940Watts and has a single power supply. I am sure in case of an AC, they would have no advantage of giving higher rating.
How does that work if the calculations in that article are correct?

regards
PENG beat me to it. To be honest, I wouldn't have been able to answer it.:eek: I would've had to find another article to answer it for you. Probably would've taken a lot longer to find than the last one.;)
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Let me also add some more information about what biamplification means in pro audio. In the pro audio world they disconnect the internal crossover networks (if any) in the speaker enclosures. Then they add an active crossover unit between the mixer (preamp) and the power stage. The active unit provides better isolation between the drivers and adjustability. Because of that, they have to have separate amplifers for each driver or driver array in the speaker system. A two way system would require 2 amplifers etc. They don't do it to add power to the system. They would do that simply by using more powerful amplifiers. They do it in order to have active crossover capability.

This process has become screwed up as it transferred from pro audio to home audio. Home audio people do not normally open their speaker enclosures to disconnect the network so that they can replace it with an active unit. Instead they biwire the speakers (waste of time) and add amplification to each leg of the biwire. The result is nothing more than powered biwiring with one amplifier that has almost nothing to do. There is an electrical difference in such an arrangement but not an audible difference.

I can't begin to tell you how messed up the consumer electronics industry is about biwiring and biamplification and it comes from those same high end magazine reviewers and the manufacturers competing with each other to satisfy the demand those reviewers create. It would be nice if the reviewers would get past the subjective reviews but that will never happen. It is what sells their magazines. You will read all kinds of nonsense about biwiring and biamplification not only here on these forums but almost everywhere in the industry. It's a shame.
 
A

anm

Audioholic Intern
Thanks field marshal, ninja and general!
I think the summary of the story is:
biwiring is a waste. I agree.
biamping - 1+1 may not be 2. Tweeters take up lesser %age of power, so giving them a separate 1 means lower freq driver is limited to 1. Had we given 2, the lower one could have taken up 1.5 or 1.9

Power ratings - mostly fudged. But ratings upto 200WPC can be impossible to achieve by a single power supply. And may be one would turn deaf (may be blind too) before these levels are hit at home. It may be possible with 220V dedicated power supply though. In India we have 230V supply - not sure about the current rating. I am sure I can pull high current from the supply since my AC does the same.

Ok - another question on power front.
Commonly seen specs for speakers - A speaker with 2 mid/ bass woofer claims 6 ohms/ 91db. A larger speaker with 3 mid/ bass woofers claim the same. How is that possible? The 3rd large woofer running without power?
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Ok - another question on power front.
Commonly seen specs for speakers - A speaker with 2 mid/ bass woofer claims 6 ohms/ 91db. A larger speaker with 3 mid/ bass woofers claim the same. How is that possible? The 3rd large woofer running without power?
No, speaker impedance and efficiency are determined by the design of the system, not by the number of drivers employed.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I am considering speakers (Dali Ikon 7, or may be Dali Ikon 6) that specify
Recommended amp. power [Watts] min 25
Recommended amp. power [Watts] max 200
Let me try to put that into perspective for you. I would think 25 watts is probably what you need to drive the speakers during loud peaks in a movie sound track. Average use is probably less than a watt per channel. So they are telling you that 25 watts per channel will get the job done. It gets the job done in my home theater as well. I know because I keep a recording wattmeter attached to one of my main speakers.

The 200 watt figure is the maximum the speakers can tolerate before the voice coils start overheating and becoming ruined. Your hearing would be damaged well before that happened.

In other words, they recommend you buy something that can put out 25 watts per channel or more.
 
R

russ_l

Audioholic Intern
Another Expert

I can't begin to tell you how messed up the consumer electronics industry is about biwiring and biamplification and it comes from those same high end magazine reviewers and the manufacturers competing with each other to satisfy the demand those reviewers create. It would be nice if the reviewers would get past the subjective reviews but that will never happen. It is what sells their magazines. You will read all kinds of nonsense about biwiring and biamplification not only here on these forums but almost everywhere in the industry. It's a shame.[/QUOTE]

FMW- I'll send you my pre written rationale if you'd like, but I'd rather ask a short question that never gets answered. If you put a Wadia, EMM Labs, etc. CDP in a system purchased at Best Buy, will you hear a difference over a $99 Sony open-box CDP. Of course not!! Biwiring, biamping (and phase reversal) are all clearly audible on a system that's up to snuff.:)

Russ
 
A

anm

Audioholic Intern
So, any suggestions on the various components for these speakers?
What all would I need to buy?
Another question - I read everywhere that bookshelves give better sound than floor standers. Is that true?
Will Ikon 7 (larger and 1 extra bass driver) sound worse than Ikon 6?
I was thinking of using it as a 2 channel music setup without a sub, but would watch some movies too.
I read a few user reviews that say that bass is not adequate on Ikon 7 either - so both would need a sub. In that case I can buy Ikon 6, and the difference should go towards subwoofer.

regards

With such a nice speaker choice, why are we looking at low/mid-fi equipment?:confused:
 
H

Highbar

Senior Audioholic
Well if I'm reading the info correct for both the 6 and the 7 the bass extension is down to 36Hz and 35Hz respectively. That's pretty good for music but isn't really going to shake the house in movies. Now how much punch they have behind them I don't know I've never heard them. I can tell you that my Paradigm Monitor 11's with 3 6.5" woofers, 1 6.5" mid, and a 1" tweeter will shake my house with my 100W Rotel without breaking a sweat.

Now one thing that I'm seeing just taking a quick look through the manual for the 254 is that there's no power ratings for anything but 8ohm speakers. The Dali's that you are looking at are both 6ohm speakers. Now this might not be a problem but it is going to put a little more stress on the receiver, is the H/K even rated for 6ohm speakers? If you only have so much money I don't want you to buy something and then blow it up, maybe someone else can chime in with more experience? There are plenty of receivers out there rated for 6ohm speakers so if the H/K can't do it there are more options. Stick with the speakers you like and find equipment to go with them, have you listened to the Ikons?

I know that put a lot more questions out there than answers I just don't want you to waste any hard earned money, I know I hate doing that.
 
A

anm

Audioholic Intern
no audition as yet, but fresh blast in an electronics shop held me back from going out to audition over a busy crowded weekend.
Hopefully next saturday I would.
6 has 1 mid and 1 bass woofers, while 7 has 1 mid and 2 bass. Much smaller than those speakers you mentioned.

regards
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
FMW- I'll send you my pre written rationale if you'd like, but I'd rather ask a short question that never gets answered. If you put a Wadia, EMM Labs, etc. CDP in a system purchased at Best Buy, will you hear a difference over a $99 Sony open-box CDP. Of course not!! Biwiring, biamping (and phase reversal) are all clearly audible on a system that's up to snuff.:)

Russ
Care to put your money where your mouth is? Why not accept my $3000 challenge? I'll come to you and prove it with properly conducted bias controlled testing. $3000 for my time and expenses. If I can't prove it, I'll pay you $3000. The answer to your question is that biwiring and "passive biamplification" have no audible affect on any system regardless of its price or place of purchase. I have some time this month and I can alway use some extra Christmas money. Interested?
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
But FMW, the Wadia CDp uses aircraft grade metallurgy, and a jitter reduction system, as well as a clock that is accurate to one millionth of a second! Anyone could hear the difference with that in a good system........assuming your cabling was up to speed. ;)
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I don't get very far bashing high end equipment - as compelling as it is to do. All I can say is that I've already done these bias-controlled tests on a $40,000 2 channel audio system.

I'm a recovered high end audiophile with 10 years of experience in bias-controlled listening tests. I've even done this test with members of an audiophile society. I realize the beliefs are strong since I held them once myself. I understand where and how Russ developed his beliefs and we'll leave it at that.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Well if I'm reading the info correct for both the 6 and the 7 the bass extension is down to 36Hz and 35Hz respectively. That's pretty good for music but isn't really going to shake the house in movies. Now how much punch they have behind them I don't know I've never heard them. I can tell you that my Paradigm Monitor 11's with 3 6.5" woofers, 1 6.5" mid, and a 1" tweeter will shake my house with my 100W Rotel without breaking a sweat.

Now one thing that I'm seeing just taking a quick look through the manual for the 254 is that there's no power ratings for anything but 8ohm speakers. The Dali's that you are looking at are both 6ohm speakers. Now this might not be a problem but it is going to put a little more stress on the receiver, is the H/K even rated for 6ohm speakers? If you only have so much money I don't want you to buy something and then blow it up, maybe someone else can chime in with more experience? There are plenty of receivers out there rated for 6ohm speakers so if the H/K can't do it there are more options. Stick with the speakers you like and find equipment to go with them, have you listened to the Ikons?

I know that put a lot more questions out there than answers I just don't want you to waste any hard earned money, I know I hate doing that.
I can't tell you how many times I've commented on this. Perhaps I should just write some articles and post them on the internet.

Under normal home use, you can ignore amplifier impedance ratings. While they are meaningful at or near maximum power output, home use doesn't get amplifiers anywhere near their maximum power output. In systems with powered subwoofers, it is hard to get a receiver amplifier above a handful of watts of output power. My own 130 watt per channel receiver hasn't yet gotten above 20 watts per channel during loud peaks in movie sound tracks. Average output levels are just under 1 watt per channel in my listening room. I choose a volume level that puts dialog at the same level I would hear if the actors were in the same room with me. That isn't going to burn up speakers of any reasonable nominal impedance measurment. Nor is it going to cause an amplifier to fail.

Speaker impedance is not constant. It varies over the range of audible (and inaudible) frequencies. Impedance ratings are called "nominal" which you can view as average. The difference between 8 ohms nominal and 6 ohms nominal is meaningless in a home theater except under the most extreme circumstances.

Since it is possible to break things at or near maximum power levels, it is sensible for manufacturers to want you to use the highest impedance level possible. The reason is that, under abusive conditions, the unit driving a lower impedance load would fail before one driving a higher impedance load. They could publish a 4 ohm rating and a 2 ohm rating if they wanted to. But those ratings would come with significantly lower power ratings as well since most receivers aren't designed with high current output stages. People don't buy low power ratings. They have been trained by the industry to want more and more power. In other words, because the manufacturer chooses not to publish 6 ohm specifications does not mean the product can't handle 6 ohm nominal impedances. In fact, it can do so with ease.

Incidentally, one of the Audioholics people posted an interesting article in the speaker forum in which he burned up some speaker drivers purposely in a test. You can get an idea of what abusive use means in that article. It is pretty interesting.

This equipment is not designed to burn up. Think of how nonsensical it would be to design a unit that was sold to the public that would destroy itself with the first movie it encountered. The public is not made up primarily of engineers and electronics experts. Most of them don't even know what impedance means. Buy whatever suits your fancy, relax and enjoy the audio.
 
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