AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
No.
A 12” driver in a sub cab vs. a 12” in a regular speaker doesn’t require more power because it’s in a sub cab. It’s because it’s a subwoofer driver. Usually not very efficient, and heavy to reproduce lower bass. That’s why it needs more power. The 12’s in my mains on the other hand while still rated to 35hz would be IMO more of a pro driver. Doesn’t play super deep, but is very sensitive. Controlling that particular driver with a sub amp as you suggested would be useless since it doesn’t play that deep anyway. Using an active XO and amp could be useful possibly.
I think we might be on different paths here, but still enjoy the conversation.
Yeah definitely agree about the driver material and design. Definitely not all woofers in speakers are equal. My towers have the same exact woofers used for subwoofers. :D

So I think all towers should use the same woofers used in subwoofers.

The older RBH SX-8300R Reference tower has 3 x 8-inch "subwoofers", which isn't on the same level as bigger subwoofers. But they are designed to be "subwoofer woofers", not "regular speaker woofers".

I assume higher end towers like KEF Blade, 800D, and Salon2 also have "subwoofer woofers". :D

But I see what you’re saying in general.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
It may if you are using two different amplifier sources.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I didn't notice any difference at all when I bi amped my Ultra towers and those have a pair of 8" drivers for the bass section. I also didn't notice a difference from my avr powering them and when I got a separate amp and hooked it up. Wait, I take that back. At pretty extreme volumes I *think* they maintained their composure a little better with the amp. It's really hard to tell tho and I'm willing to acknowledge my sighted bias on that. It's really hard to pick out those differences when you can't instant switch between hearing a and b and the bias was strong with me... I'd just spent $1500 on a shiny new amp!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
As you said, it may NOT be what I think, and I’m happy to say so. I also think like usual, it depends. And please correct me if I’m wrong. But don’t both sets of terminals usually pass through the same path in the passive XO? Wouldn’t that negate any possible advantages?
Thanks for sharing!
Depending on what you meant by the same path, you may be right. About the "you think..." part, I normally would avoid implying I know what people think, so my apology for even saying that, but to be clear, in this case I referred to your comment on the "...negate........" part only.

I am happy to share what Steve shared:):

Bi-amping vs Bi-wiring: What's the Difference and is it Audible? | Audioholics

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You can see that while the signal paths are the same, that is, going from the amp speaker terminals to the crossover terminals and then to the crossover terminals, assuming that's what you meant by "the same path".

That does not negate the theoretical difference, that the amp for the high frequency band will be much less affected by the low frequency band current that the amp would otherwise have to deliver, via that "same path".

Such theoretical difference would, in my opinion and experience, not result in any audible difference if say instead of biamping with two 100 W amps, just use a single 200 W amp and use heavy gauge wires than those used in non bi-amp method. That's just my opinion, others, such as at least a couple of speaker manufacturers that I know of, suggested that there may be audible differences, but again as always, it would depend.... For example, Focal used to claim that if the passive crossovers are designed properly, there is no need to bi-amp for audible improvements. That, go without saying that they at least implied if the crossovers are not designed well enough, there may be audible improvements with the bi-amp scheme. If true, that could explain why some people insisted on getting audible improvements, though I do think many of such claims were for other reasons.

It would be great to hear @D Murphy 's comments on why the crossover design may impact on whether bi-amp could make an audible difference, or not. May be he could even give us some easy to understand example.

Another example is Anthem/Paradigm, though I am somewhat skeptical of what they said about the active vs passive XO part:

"Doesn't passive biamping waste the amp's power because each channel still has to amplify the full range signal and not just the highs or the lows?
No. With the jumpers removed on a biampable speaker, the impedance of each section is not the usual 4 or 8 ohms, but several hundred if not more at the frequencies that the amp is "not supposed to be amplifying". Higher impedance means less current draw. No meaningful amount of current, no wasted power.

According a recurring audio-myth, only an active crossover should be used for biamping, in order to split the band before the power amp instead of inside the speaker, thereby reducing the amount of work each amp channel has to do. While active crossovers do have their place in PA systems, it should be noted that equalizers are also a part of it.

A generic active crossover on its own merely divides the audio band into smaller ones. The carefully custom-designed crossover in a high performance home audio speaker does a lot more. It is responsible for correcting frequency response aberrations of the individual drivers, maintaining phase coherence between drivers, optimizing off-axis response, balancing levels between drivers, setting up impedance, at times improving woofer performance by rolling off not just the top, but also frequencies that are too low and cause it to misbehave, and other things that vary according to model."


Tearing out the speaker's own finely-tuned crossover to replace it with an active crossover with generic controls almost guarantees that, just for starters, frequency response will be altered. Different sound doesn't mean better sound. Using the passive crossover in the speaker is indeed the correct way to biamp.

(What's biamping? It's using one amp channel for the speaker's mid-high frequency drivers, and another for the low-frequency drivers. The speakers must have separate inputs for this - be sure to remove the jumpers from the speaker inputs first or amp will become instant toast! If one amp starts running out of power, usually the one driving the woofer, then the other side remains clean instead of becoming part of the problem, a double-win. This is the very idea behind bass management and powered subwoofers in home theater systems.)"

To sum up, as I posted many times before, there are definitely differences between passive bi-amp and vs not in terms of electrical theory, the question is whether such difference would result in improved sound quality. I would think not in general but I would not rule out under some conditions, it may..
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
For example, Focal used to claim that if the passive crossovers are designed properly, there is no need to bi-amp for audible improvements. That, go without saying that they at least implied if the crossovers are not designed well enough, there may be audible improvements with the bi-amp scheme. If true, that could explain why some people insisted on getting audible improvements, though I do think many of such claims were for other reasons.
It's funny what you can infer about a statement such as Focal's claim when you think about it a little, huh? What you point out makes a lot of sense. It most definitely depends.
Tearing out the speaker's own finely-tuned crossover to replace it with an active crossover with generic controls almost guarantees that, just for starters, frequency response will be altered. Different sound doesn't mean better sound. Using the passive crossover in the speaker is indeed the correct way to biamp.
This only makes sense of course. To be fair tho, I don't think I've seen any of our regulars suggest doing it this way. I usually see it talked about in the context of a speaker built to be actively bi amped using the appropriate electronics.

Great post tho Peng. I'm always learning stuff from you!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's funny what you can infer about a statement such as Focal's claim when you think about it a little, huh? What you point out makes a lot of sense. It most definitely depends.

This only makes sense of course. To be fair tho, I don't think I've seen any of our regulars suggest doing it this way. I usually see it talked about in the context of a speaker built to be actively bi amped using the appropriate electronics.

Great post tho Peng. I'm always learning stuff from you!
You and I have been around here long enough to know such manufacturer claims are to be taken with a grain of salt but unfortunately beginners may be prone to take it all in.:D
 
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