A

austinrafael

Audiophyte
Hi all, long time AV fan but just scratching the surface on intermediate topics -

I recently upgraded from a Denon AVR-1911 to a Pioneer SC-91 to better support some used Polk RTi12 fronts I picked up super cheap.

I have read a bit about pros and cons of bi-amping these speakers and was hoping you all could lend some advice - (I understand that whatever sounds good to the listener should win)

Currently I have the speakers bi-amped "vertically" via the appropriate speaker menu setting and using the surround speaker terminals. I have read that this isn't ideal as it's really just using the same power supply to source power.

Since the SC-91 doesn't have a real set of preamp outs, would it be possible to instead set the speaker menu setting to "non bi-amp" and instead using the zone2 out, and having the Denon pick that signal up to run the second speaker terminals? Would it be accurate tocall that horizontal bi-amping? Would that create a bunch of complications to setting levels and MCACC? I gotta find one of those mics too.

Any help is much appreciated -
Thanks,
Rafael
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic Chief
Wont work, zone 2 isnt volume controlled with the main zone and is often not fully synched.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
Hi Rafael, welcome to Audioholics.
I recently upgraded from a Denon AVR-1911 to a Pioneer SC-91 to better support some used Polk RTi12 fronts I picked up super cheap.

I have read a bit about pros and cons of bi-amping these speakers and was hoping you all could lend some advice - (I understand that whatever sounds good to the listener should win)
You are right that "whatever sounds good to the listener should win". But that's within reason. Also remember that it's easy to fool yourself:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. – Richard Feynman​
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.​
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. – Mark Twain​
Currently I have the speakers bi-amped "vertically" via the appropriate speaker menu setting and using the surround speaker terminals. I have read that this isn't ideal as it's really just using the same power supply to source power.
It would be wrong to say, using the same single power supply to bi-amp is not ideal. It's accomplishes nothing at all.
Since the SC-91 doesn't have a real set of preamp outs, would it be possible to instead set the speaker menu setting to "non bi-amp" and instead using the zone2 out, and having the Denon pick that signal up to run the second speaker terminals? Would it be accurate tocall that horizontal bi-amping? Would that create a bunch of complications to setting levels and MCACC? I gotta find one of those mics too.
I don't think you can send zone 2 signals to the amp section of your Denon AVR. The only way I know to bi-amp using an AVR is 1) you must have an AVR with pre-amp out jacks, and 2) you must have a separate amplifier with at least 2 channels. And quite frankly, you would do just as well with a more powerful separate amplifier without the more complex bi-amp wiring.

By the way, your interest in vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping is misdirected. Because bi-amping with an AVR can accomplish nothing, it can't matter how you arrange the wiring.
 
A

austinrafael

Audiophyte
Wont work, zone 2 isnt volume controlled with the main zone and is often not fully synched.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hmm, this AVR seems to have a setting for Zone2 that is either variable, fixed at 0dB, or fixed at -40dB.

If I set it to variable, would I then just be dealing with sync issues?
 
A

austinrafael

Audiophyte
Hi Rafael, welcome to Audioholics.
You are right that "whatever sounds good to the listener should win". But that's within reason. Also remember that it's easy to fool yourself:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. – Richard Feynman​
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.​
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. – Mark Twain​
It would be wrong to say, using the same single power supply to bi-amp is not ideal. It's accomplishes nothing at all.
I don't think you can send zone 2 signals to the amp section of your Denon AVR. The only way I know to bi-amp using an AVR is 1) you must have an AVR with pre-amp out jacks, and 2) you must have a separate amplifier with at least 2 channels. And quite frankly, you would do just as well with a more powerful separate amplifier without the more complex bi-amp wiring.

By the way, your interest in vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping is misdirected. Because bi-amping with an AVR can accomplish nothing, it can't matter how you arrange the wiring.
Gotcha, ok, I think I'll plan on removing the bi-wire setup and go back to standard. Thanks!
 
L

Leemix

Audioholic Chief
Hmm, this AVR seems to have a setting for Zone2 that is either variable, fixed at 0dB, or fixed at -40dB.

If I set it to variable, would I then just be dealing with sync issues?
Im not sure with pioneer but most likly the variable is a separate zone 2 volume control that isnt linked to the main zone volume.
The synch issue itself is most likly impossible to fix with a connection like you are considering.

If you want more power, buy a more powerful AVR or an AVR with pre-out and a good external amp.
If you have a massive powersupply passive bi-amping can be good on a few speakers, but you wont find that in any AVR and the cost would be so high itll be cheaper to just buy an even better 2ch amp.

What does give more certain improvement is room + placement, subs(s) and correct crossover settings.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I would just abandon bi amping altogether and focus elsewhere if looking to improve things. Not that passive bi amping hurts anything, but it doesn't offer any improvements in performance in most cases. Even less in the case of using spare channels on an avr.

If you haven't already, playing with placement and position can offer big improvements. More than most realize. When I knuckled down and dug into it I was surprised at some of the improvements I made just playing with positioning and toe in. Good subwoofage is another avenue that can elevate a system and surprised me as well. I'm not sure what it is, I had the same exact thought process until I learned some more, but it seems like so many people seek improvements through amplification or more expensive avrs. Any improvements will almost always be achieved with your speakers (sub included). Whether upgrading to better or just experimenting with positional eq.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Drink! Another Bi Amp question! :D

Doesn't do anything for you: I agree with the others.

Lovin' mentioned marketing, and there is serious truth behind that. I think it is more from the Electronics manufacturers rather than the speaker companies. But who knows?
Apparently there are more than a few Quacks and Meatballs in this industry! :oops:
Regardless, one speaker designer I've talked to installs 2 pairs of binding posts on his speakers simply because it protects their value for potential resale. Of three professional Speaker Designers I talked to about this topic, none supported Bi-Amping. Only one of them supported Bi-Wiring, but this guy also recommends upgrading XO components and Mil-Spec Wiring inside the cabinet! :eek: :rolleyes: :p
 
A

austinrafael

Audiophyte
Thanks all for the insight- binding connectors have been put back and bi-amp setting removed :)

I'll be content at this receiver's power for a while I think. I was just hoping to reuse the Denon. For now I am content!

thanks again
 

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