Bi-Amping Fronts

[mtrycrafts]

Perhaps what hasn't been addressed is the quality of the power being supplied. If any old 16 watts will do, why would anyone spend $3K on a Levinson 2 X 100 wpc amp when a crappy Technics 100 wpc receiver would achieve the same results?

Well, we are talking about modern, competently designed amps, not those 16watt SET

Hence, 16 watts from brand A will be audibly the same as brand B in a competent amp, whether one cost $300 and the next one $3K. After all, some components demand more for the name
Yes, your above comparison under DBT would be surprizing as long as you don't exceed the Pioneers design limits. Maybe the Levinson handles difficult speaker loads better. Outside of that, the historical DBT data is with me.

If your implications were correct, DBT between amps would have shown many more audible differences over the years than they really have.

A few years ago, Steve Zipser and 2 others could not differentiate his $15k PassAleph or something and a $300 Yam.

http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_pwr.htm

 

[mtrycrafts]

I must reply. I have to say more power will GREATLY improve the quality. I, like zipper, added an external amp to my Yamaha. HUGE difference at high levels. Clear, dynamic, detailed, and just plain better. NOT louder. Just a better quality of sound and much more control over the speaker itself.

But, at a level in which my wife would listen, there is NO difference.

I'd like to see a DBT comparison of those two setups. Outside of that, the perception is just that, iffy, maybe, etc, unreliable
Of course, you'd have to stay withing the design limits of the perceived lesser component

 

[zipper]

Mtrycrafts......................those are interesting comparisons. I can't honestly say if I could tell the difference had I been part of the tests. What I do know is how the sound of my system has evolved from driving my Axiom M60's with a Yamaha RX-V620 to the 3300, & then adding Optimus mpa-250 amps to each front followed by a B&K ST-202+. Having a friend of mine come over from time to time( yes,the same one who owns the crappy 100wpc Technics & whose biggest compliment to said receiver is that "it cranks"), he wouldn't know the difference between my original setup & what I have now.

I, not being happy with the sound of the M60's,decided to see if better power would improve the sound coming out of them rather than just write them off as "overrated". Had I not heard an improvement I would have said so. I'm not one to falsely proclaim something as "great" or "excellent" just because I spent money on it & am stuck with it. Having gotten to this point from point A,I can honestly say I hear a difference that I will call an "improvement". Yes, it's a subjective opinion & ,no, I will not claim to have a "golden ear". Simply put, I enjoy the sound of my M60's now much more than I did with just a receivers' power driving them.

 

[zumbo]

Mtrycrafts......................those are interesting comparisons. I can't honestly say if I could tell the difference had I been part of the tests. What I do know is how the sound of my system has evolved from driving my Axiom M60's with a Yamaha RX-V620 to the 3300, & then adding Optimus mpa-250 amps to each front followed by a B&K ST-202+. Having a friend of mine come over from time to time( yes,the same one who owns the crappy 100wpc Technics & whose biggest compliment to said receiver is that "it cranks"), he wouldn't know the difference between my original setup & what I have now.

I, not being happy with the sound of the M60's,decided to see if better power would improve the sound coming out of them rather than just write them off as "overrated". Had I not heard an improvement I would have said so. I'm not one to falsely proclaim something as "great" or "excellent" just because I spent money on it & am stuck with it. Having gotten to this point from point A,I can honestly say I hear a difference that I will call an "improvement". Yes, it's a subjective opinion & ,no, I will not claim to have a "golden ear". Simply put, I enjoy the sound of my M60's now much more than I did with just a receivers' power driving them.

And to add to this, it might be the fact that my speakers are 4ohm-87dB. They are pretty demanding for a mid-fi receiver. So, in this case, I am sure most philes would be able to tell a difference in my set-up.

 

[mtrycrafts]

And to add to this, it might be the fact that my speakers are 4ohm-87dB. They are pretty demanding for a mid-fi receiver. So, in this case, I am sure most philes would be able to tell a difference in my set-up.

Not if you don't exceed the design limits of the weaker amp. It is that simple.

Now, if you need more power that the lesser amp just cannot do, then yes, you need a better amp for your speaker load.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mtrycrafts......................those are interesting comparisons. I can't honestly say if I could tell the difference had I been part of the tests. What I do know is how the sound of my system has evolved from driving my Axiom M60's with a Yamaha RX-V620 to the 3300, & then adding Optimus mpa-250 amps to each front followed by a B&K ST-202+. Having a friend of mine come over from time to time( yes,the same one who owns the crappy 100wpc Technics & whose biggest compliment to said receiver is that "it cranks"), he wouldn't know the difference between my original setup & what I have now.

I, not being happy with the sound of the M60's,decided to see if better power would improve the sound coming out of them rather than just write them off as "overrated". Had I not heard an improvement I would have said so. I'm not one to falsely proclaim something as "great" or "excellent" just because I spent money on it & am stuck with it. Having gotten to this point from point A,I can honestly say I hear a difference that I will call an "improvement". Yes, it's a subjective opinion & ,no, I will not claim to have a "golden ear". Simply put, I enjoy the sound of my M60's now much more than I did with just a receivers' power driving them.

I can only say that you are relying on memory over time to compare the upgrades and biased at that. So, the perception is unreliable for real audible differences.

Too bad you don't live near one of those northern audio clubs where one of our posters belongs to so you could do a real DBT and see how well you can differentiate amps. History is against you.

But, it is a hobby. If you are happy, great.

 

[flyv65]

I'm confused mtrycrafts-I've seen the test (in Stereophile, IIRC: I took great comfort in that write-up) where the "educated" ears couldn't tell a difference between a $500 amp and a $5,000 amp (or more); but I don't recall seeing any tests where a lower powered amp (120 wpc) was compared to a higher powered amp (200 wpc or so) of similar build quality/specifications. The determining factor in such a comparison is obviously going to be what (which) speakers are used in the test-say a set of 80wpc bookcase speakers, verses a pair of 200 wpc 3-way floor standers (sensitivity, etc., being roughly equal).

If you've seen any tests similar to those I've described I'd appreciate a heads up; if not, I think I've about defined my hypothesis.

Bryan...so how do you feel about integrated amp/receivers verses prepro/amp combinations?...

 

[zumbo]

Not if you don't exceed the design limits of the weaker amp. It is that simple.

Now, if you need more power that the lesser amp just cannot do, then yes, you need a better amp for your speaker load.

I am sure you are educated in this field, but I am not so clear on your knowledge. If what you say is true, then why would amp companies offer a (125 x 2+) & a (200 x 2+) if there is no difference?

Not trying to argue. Trying to learn more.

 

[zipper]

I can only say that you are relying on memory over time to compare the upgrades and biased at that. So, the perception is unreliable for real audible differences.



I understand what you're saying, but I assure you the difference is not perceived. I have moved my mains back to the receivers outputs to compare
& the difference is real. Not night & day mind you, but I have accomplished what I was after.

 

[nibhaz]

Quote:[zumbo]: If what you say is true, then why would amp companies offer a (125 x 2+) & a (200 x 2+) if there is no difference?

The reason different companies provide different amounts of power in their amps are because there are many different uses for said amps. Say for instance someone would just like to drive an efficient set of bookshelves in a small room. Why would they need 200wpc..? Why pay for the extra technology and parts to create 200wpc when they could get by with a cheaper unit that produces 75wpc? On the other hand another consumer might need the 200wpc for an inefficient pair of towers in a large volume room. The manufactures are just creating different products for the different needs of their consumers in order to maximize the number of consumers that might purchase their product in effort to increase their bottom line.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I am sure you are educated in this field, but I am not so clear on your knowledge. If what you say is true, then why would amp companies offer a (125 x 2+) & a (200 x 2+) if there is no difference?

Not trying to argue. Trying to learn more.

Learning is good. We are far from arguing

Why not? Obviously marketing has something to do with it. A different speaker load will have something to do with amp choice. A different sensitivity speaker need different amounts of power, right? A 3dB difference in sensitivity needs twice as much power just to sound the same.
Many years of marketeering has something to do with all the amps. Cost differences? Some want a less expensive from a line that will just meet their needs. If you like it loud and I like it average or softer, we may need different amps? I may want the lesser amp, you may want the bullet proof, but, in the end, see below

What I said is that if you do not exceed the amps design limits, obviously if you clip one amp and not the other, one will sound different at that point as you exceeded the design limits and not the others, right? When you compare, you cannot exceed the weaker amp, levels are matched to close levels, 0.1dB spl.

But, I could be wrong. However, only credible DBTs will convince me of that

 

[zumbo]

I got you. Thanks.