J

johnpaulwynn

Audiophyte
My fronts seem to want more juice than my 7.1 Onkyo TX-SR602 can push to them (85W/channel). They are Bi-Amp Bi-Wire capabale, so I was thinking about adding a 2-channel Amp and Bi-Amping the fronts. Anybody know of any links that show how to wire this up? Also will any 2-channel Amp work or perhaps an older 5.1 Amp in Stereo mode? Any suggestions on a good Amp to use (less than $250 USD)?

My main confusion is how I get just the Front channel L/R signal from my 7.1 amp to the 2-channel Amp? Here are the specs on my Fronts:

Power Handling: 50 - 200 Watts
Frequency Response: 35 Hz - 20 KHz
Sensitivity: 92 dB
Crossover Frequency: 500/4000 Hz
Impedance: 8 Ohms

Thanks in advance for those that can help. :)
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
johnpaulwynn said:
My main confusion is how I get just the Front channel L/R signal from my 7.1 amp to the 2-channel Amp?
The 602 does not have pre-outs for any channels other than the subwoofer, so you can't use it the way you intend with a 2 channel amp.

It does have a zone 2 feature, so you could possibly use that to bi-amp the mains - see the article on this site about bi-amping the Denon 3805, the procedure should be similar.
 

plhart

Audioholic
My fronts seem to want more juice than my 7.1 Onkyo TX-SR602 can push to them (85W/channel). They are Bi-Amp Bi-Wire capabale, so I was thinking about adding a 2-channel Amp and Bi-Amping the fronts. Anybody know of any links that show how to wire this up? Also will any 2-channel Amp work or perhaps an older 5.1 Amp in Stereo mode? Any suggestions on a good Amp to use (less than $250 USD)?
You don't mention what your speakers are or their rated impedance. An easy way to find out the true impedance (of the woofers anyway) is to measure the direct current resistance at the speaker terminals. If you get something like 3.5 ohms DCR you've got a 4 ohm speaker. That makes the claim of 92dB somewhat believeable as the manufacturer may be driving the speaker with 2.83volts (an 8 ohm drive level) to post a 92dB sensitivity. That's the part of the equation that's hard to figure out. These figures usually pass through the hands of sales and marketing people who's job it is to make the speaker look as efficient as possible.

Given the figures you quote for wattage out ("juice" is amps BTW) and the sensitivity, your system should be able to realistically sustain 98dB in stereo at 12 feet on only 16 watts. That is very, very loud. So the question then becomes what do you mean by "seems to want more juice?"
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
The 602 does not have pre-outs for any channels other than the subwoofer, so you can't use it the way you intend with a 2 channel amp.
That's quite an eye opener there! I didn't realize this short coming on the 602.
That's a major difference when comparing the 602 with the Yamaha RX-V650, which up until now I felt were competitive with each other.
 
J

johnpaulwynn

Audiophyte
"Wanting More Juice"

Forgive me I'm not super technical when it comes to stereo equipment. I'm pretty new to all of this-hence why I'm here trying to learn from all of you knowledgeable types.

Anyways it seems like the speakers are under powered. Whether that is wattage or amps is beyond me. While they sound fine I'm pretty sure they could sound a lot better bi-amped. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd assume if they can handle more wattage then it would improve the sound of the speakers to give them more wattage. They have two 8" woofers, one 5.25", and a 1" tweeter. They have banana plug capable gold plated binding posts (4 total on each speaker, 2L/2R).

Regardless without L/R pre-outs it looks like I'm screwed. I guess my only option is to upgrade to the TX-SR702 (I checked it has 7.1 pre-outs) or switch brands. I saw this Kenwood VR-8070 on Ebay for < $400 USD. Seems to good to be true, but it's got 100W/Channel and has pre-outs, and is also THX Select (not that I really care). I really like my Onkyo so i'd hate to see it go, not to mention I've barely had it 3 months now. The TX-SR702 is going for $550-650 USD, and I paid ~ $400 for my TX-SR602. Guess I should have done more research.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
johnpaulwynn said:
Anyways it seems like the speakers are under powered. Whether that is wattage or amps is beyond me. While they sound fine I'm pretty sure they could sound a lot better bi-amped. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd assume if they can handle more wattage then it would improve the sound of the speakers to give them more wattage. QUOTE]

Not really. As another poster mentioned you are probably only using about 16 watts to drive your speakers really, really loud. Whether or not your amp has 75 watts or 1000 watts if all it needs is 16 then there is no benefit to having more.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
[=johnpaulwynn]Anyways it seems like the speakers are under powered.

That may just your impression but it doesn't seem like it is. How loud do you play the speakers anyhow?


While they sound fine I'm pretty sure they could sound a lot better bi-amped.

Why do you think this? Did someone suggest this to you? A true biamp is not easy to do, You need to bypass all the crossover networks, use an electronic crossover. Your benifit is small in the end.
A more powerful amp will only drive it louder, nothing more.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd assume if they can handle more wattage then it would improve the sound of the speakers to give them more wattage.

Yes, you are wrong.
 
F

flyv65

Full Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
A true biamp is not easy to do, You need to bypass all the crossover networks, use an electronic crossover. Your benifit is small in the end.
A more powerful amp will only drive it louder, nothing more.
While I agree whole heartedly that bi-amping is a PITA and seldom results in the huge benifits people expect, I don't *necessarily* concur with your last statement. True, a more powerful amp will drive a speaker louder, but (depending on the speaker) it can also make a very noticeable difference in how much is heard.

A friend of mine was running B&W CDMs off his Denon 4802-not exactly a slouch of a receiver. He picked up a SimAudio W5 amp (195 wpc) to push the front 9NTs and I was stunned at the difference it made-it cleared up the sound at a much lower volume than his normal listening level...so his normal listening level is now lower.

Bryan...gonna try it on my Spendors one of these days...
 
J

johnpaulwynn

Audiophyte
"Yes, you are wrong"

Explanation? Just saying I'm wrong doesn't help me learn anything.

Reading that reply just makes me think your arrogant, but thanks for the reply anyways.

Obviously I want my system louder, otherwise I wouldn't of posted. Not to mention that maybe more power could possibly make it sound cleaner.

And let me reiterate that I am pretty new to Home Theater equipment, and I've never done aftermarket car stereos either.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd assume if they can handle more wattage then it would improve the sound of the speakers to give them more wattage.

Saying you are flat out wrong is not fair (and doesn't help any as you said), but the notion that any speaker needs X wpc to sound their best is a common misconception.

First, the speaker ratings are very conservative and indicate how much power they can reasonably take without damage. Nearly ALL speakers can take far more power than their rating for short periods of time. Driving speakers with an underpowered amp can blow the speakers (tweeters) far more easily than having alot of clean power that is in excess of the speaker's stated maximum. This is because as an amp approaches its maximum output, its distortion goes up and and if driven too hard it can clip the waveform (square off the tops). A more powerful amp can play louder before it clips and thus is safer than playing a lower powered amp full out. Of course if you were to send a 200 wpc rated speaker 500 watts of clean, undistorted power continuously, it will blow the speakers too. For a few seconds though, no problem.

Now what does all of this have to do with loudness (which is the real question)?

The loudness you hear at your listening position is dependent on many factors: power from the amp/receiver, speaker sensitivity, and room acoustics to name the most important. PLHart was trying to give you an example of how little power you really need to get to very high sound pressure levels. Highly efficient speakers (say 90 dB or greater) require very little power unless your room is gigantic. The amount of power you require to get to an acceptably loud level is the amount of power you require, period - speakers don't need a given amount of power to 'sound their best'.

I chuckle when I see people say that this speaker or that really needs 200 wpc to sound its best. Wouldn't that mean that it only sounds good when it is excruciatingly loud? That it only sounds good when the in-room SPL is 105 dB and sounds terrible at 90dB? Either of those levels will cause permanent hearing damage if sustained for too long.

Now there is value to using separate amps - not so much because you really need the excess power, but because they work less hard to get to the level you do require and will not clip the signal as well as the fact that they can better handle momentary transients that might require 10x the power to play accurately without clipping. But as PLHart pointed out, it really doesn't take much power to reach very high level SPLs.

Just as an example, I have an Onkyo TX-SR502 (75 wpc) in one of my smaller rooms (about 12'x14')with older JBL speakers (92dB sensitivity). After calibration, I get Dolby Reference level of 105dB peaks at the listening position with the volume dial set at 50. The receiver is well within its linear operating range (not clipping) and the sound is crystal clear - AND SO LOUD I CAN'T HANDLE IT FOR VERY LONG! :)
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
Math doesn't answer the question. I've never tried bi-amping but I'm much happier with the sound of my system with an amp added to my Yamaha receiver. Not because I can wake up the neighbors, but because at moderate listening levels I get better overall tonal response. And when I do want to turn it up, I still have good sound whereas with just the Yammy it would get bright & fatiguing.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
flyv65 said:
While I agree whole heartedly that bi-amping is a PITA and seldom results in the huge benifits people expect, I don't *necessarily* concur with your last statement. True, a more powerful amp will drive a speaker louder, but (depending on the speaker) it can also make a very noticeable difference in how much is heard.

A friend of mine was running B&W CDMs off his Denon 4802-not exactly a slouch of a receiver. He picked up a SimAudio W5 amp (195 wpc) to push the front 9NTs and I was stunned at the difference it made-it cleared up the sound at a much lower volume than his normal listening level...so his normal listening level is now lower.

Bryan...gonna try it on my Spendors one of these days...
I can only presume you did a biased, unreliable comparison of the amps? How would that tell you anything worthwhile? With all the DBt amp comparisons over the past 25+ years, your assumptions are not supported.

If your speaker is demanding 1 watts of power at a specific volume setting with a specific signal imput, how will a 1000watt amp help over a 100watt amp? It will not help one bit.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
johnpaulwynn said:
Explanation? Just saying I'm wrong doesn't help me learn anything.

Reading that reply just makes me think your arrogant, but thanks for the reply anyways.

Obviously I want my system louder, otherwise I wouldn't of posted. Not to mention that maybe more power could possibly make it sound cleaner.

And let me reiterate that I am pretty new to Home Theater equipment, and I've never done aftermarket car stereos either.

As you jumped to conclusion about your speakers and amp, you are certainly assuming things about me, specifically being arrogant.
Yet another perception that is unreliable.

As you indicate you are new, you make assumptions, and when someone states you are wrong, you assume they are arrogant?
Tell me how you are right?
Maybe afterwards we can discuss the issues further?

Before that can happen, you need to forget what you are assuming, what some other audiophiles may be speculating, etc.

A speaker will draw a given power at a given fixed volume level. Changing to a more powerful amp to supply power at the same given fixed volume will not change or cause differences, it cannot, unless you have an incompetently designed amp. The vast majority is not in their design limits.

If you are exceeding the design limits of an amp, the amp is not at fault.
Just because your speakers has 400watts max doesn't mean you will be able to listen to that level, or that speaker can handle that level but at peaks.

How do you know your amp is not powerful enough to drive the speakers? Because it is not a 400watt amp? Don't fall into that trap.
 
F

Fb111794

Audioholic Intern
Anonymous:

That's about as well thought out and logical explanation on this matter that I've seen on a forum in a long time.

Very well done. Now.... let's see if the poster will actually BELIEVE you.

:p
 
F

Fb111794

Audioholic Intern
If your speaker is demanding 1 watts of power at a specific volume setting with a specific signal imput, how will a 1000watt amp help over a 100watt amp? It will not help one bit.

mtrycrafts:

The only thing I would disagree with you here on would be Dynamic Peaks. With todays DVD sound tracks or some classical recordings like say.... Telarc's 1812 Overature, the extra power reserve that that 1000 amp provides, just might save a speaker or two if the listener has the volume up pretty high.

:cool:
 
F

flyv65

Full Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
I can only presume you did a biased, unreliable comparison of the amps? How would that tell you anything worthwhile? With all the DBt amp comparisons over the past 25+ years, your assumptions are not supported.

If your speaker is demanding 1 watts of power at a specific volume setting with a specific signal imput, how will a 1000watt amp help over a 100watt amp? It will not help one bit.
Quite true-it was an entirely biased comparison, neither ABX nor even single blind; and as such is scientifically invalid. Furthermore, I'm not a "chocolatey smooth midrange cable" kind of guy, I don't think that hardwood pot knobs sound better, and I'm not saying the Simaudio amp is better than his Denon because it was assembled by Canadian gnomes using pure silver wire extruded during a full moon. I am saying however, that the (nominal) 75 extra wpc appeared to be quite noticeable at comfortable listening levels, and I was a tad pissed off 'cuz I wasn't sure why I heard a difference. Did having more power available make the occaissional peaks easier to hit (drive and return the cone)? Maybe... It could be I just imagined it; that was looking for an improvement-but I doubt it, since I really enjoy busting Eric's chops for spending money he didn't need to.

Bryan...who knows?...
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
Perhaps what hasn't been addressed is the quality of the power being supplied. If any old 16 watts will do, why would anyone spend $3K on a Levinson 2 X 100 wpc amp when a crappy Technics 100 wpc receiver would achieve the same results?
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
I must reply. I have to say more power will GREATLY improve the quality. I, like zipper, added an external amp to my Yamaha. HUGE difference at high levels. Clear, dynamic, detailed, and just plain better. NOT louder. Just a better quality of sound and much more control over the speaker itself.

But, at a level in which my wife would listen, there is NO difference.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
zipper said:
Perhaps what hasn't been addressed is the quality of the power being supplied. If any old 16 watts will do, why would anyone spend $3K on a Levinson 2 X 100 wpc amp when a crappy Technics 100 wpc receiver would achieve the same results?
Well in fact, there was a DBT I read about on this issue conducted by an audio club. Much to their supprise it seems that they could not reliably tell the difference between the $300 amp and the $2000 one. This was reported on over at the Audio Review site. It was well over year or so ago when I read it so I don't know if one could still find the thread.

http://www.audioreview.com/message/index.asp
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Fb111794 said:
mtrycrafts:

The only thing I would disagree with you here on would be Dynamic Peaks. With todays DVD sound tracks or some classical recordings like say.... Telarc's 1812 Overature, the extra power reserve that that 1000 amp provides, just might save a speaker or two if the listener has the volume up pretty high.

:cool:
I am familiar with that Telarc CD ;)
If you have bass management, your sub will handle the cannons nicely to the point of rattling the windows :p The rest of the music is just loafing along and can be very loud without coming close to a normal amps dynamic limits. So, in essence, the low frequency is what needs a good sub in a system :D
You can always try to emulate Tom Nousaine's house :D
 
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