Bi Amp to drive four speakers

[Alwezhpy]

This is somewhat unconventional, but I recently started using my bi-amp setup to drive four front speakers. My theater setup was a 7.3.4 configuration with flagship Klipshorns in the front position. In addition to the theater configuration, I just love two-channel listening sessions. The Khorns shine there too. I remember years ago reading about how Paul Klipsch meant for his Klipshorns to work in concert with a center speaker to complete the sound stage. I think he started with a Heresy and ended with a Cornwall configuration.
I wanted to experiment with this, but my center speaker is a Klipsch KV-4. It is a hard to find and great sounding center channel, but is no where near a match for Klipshorns. I had two Klipsch Tangent T-50 speakers sitting in another room. These were the flagship Tangent speakers in the late 1980’s and were mainly sold overseas to our fighting men and women in the service. Again, these are hard to find and really sound great, but they can and do match up with the Khorns nicely. I wanted to use them in my front sound stage for both theater and two-channel listening. And, since bi-amping uses two amplifiers in my receiver while producing identical output, I thought I would try to use the T-50’s as the bi-amp channels. The results were quite astounding as the T-50’s complemented the Khorns and completed the sound stage better than I could have imagined. I believe the key is the Khorns sensitivity is 104db and the T-50’s are 98db. So, when I set up the acoustic levels, the T-50’s produce the same sound as the Khorns but at a lower volume due to their lower efficiency. I’ve switched the bi-amp setting on and off over and again to hear the difference and am convinced the T-50’s add to the quality of the sound and not just more sound. The amplifier (Yamaha RX-A3050) has no problem driving the 9 speakers and the Atmos speakers are driven by a Yamaha RX-A3030. Even though I am sold on the configuration, I would appreciate other’s opinions and criticisms on using the bi-amp channels to complement the main speakers.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[-Jim-]

My first impression is Wow that's a lot of speakers for a single wall in your room.

I see very little use for Bi-Amping but other may chime in differently. In your case how do you control the individual sound levels when processing a surround signal for each speaker?

I only heard Klipshorns a couple of times and remember them as one of the most efficient speakers on the planet. I was impressed. You could light them up with 50 watts a side - probably less. They've been around since about 1946 and have various generations since then. How old are yours?

Have you ever tried to run them with a "phantom" center?

 

[Alwezhpy]

Hello Jim.
you are correct about the speaker wall. The room is 15’x22’ and is set up with a riser for the back row of seats. YPAO sets the levels for all 11 channels (13 speakers) plus the 3 subs. Of course, since the Khorns and the T-50’s are bi-amped together, their levels are identical. But as I mentioned, the T-50’s are actually at a lower level since they are less efficient with the wattage provided than the Khorns.
The Klipshorns are a 1983 model and the Tangents are 1989. They also seem to have the same timbre and mesh very well. It has occurred to me the Klipshorns can satisfy the needs of the room without help, but after listening with and without the added speakers, I am still blown away with the quality of the results.
I do use a phantom center when I listen to music as I change the amplifier to 2-channel. I only use surround speakers for TV or when I lower the screen for the projector.

 

[Verdinut]

This is somewhat unconventional, but I recently started using my bi-amp setup to drive four front speakers. My theater setup was a 7.3.4 configuration with flagship Klipshorns in the front position. In addition to the theater configuration, I just love two-channel listening sessions. The Khorns shine there too. I remember years ago reading about how Paul Klipsch meant for his Klipshorns to work in concert with a center speaker to complete the sound stage. I think he started with a Heresy and ended with a Cornwall configuration.
I wanted to experiment with this, but my center speaker is a Klipsch KV-4. It is a hard to find and great sounding center channel, but is no where near a match for Klipshorns. I had two Klipsch Tangent T-50 speakers sitting in another room. These were the flagship speakers in the late 1980’s and were mainly sold overseas to our fighting men and women in the service. Again, these are hard to find and really sound great, but they can and do match up with the Khorns nicely. I wanted to use them in my front sound stage for both theater and two-channel listening. And, since bi-amping uses two amplifiers in my receiver while producing identical output, I thought I would try to use the T-50’s as the bi-amp channels. The results were quite astounding as the T-50’s complemented the Khorns and completed the sound stage better than I could have imagined. I believe the key is the Khorns sensitivity is 104db and the T-50’s are 98db. So, when I set up the acoustic levels, the T-50’s produce the same sound as the Khorns but at a lower volume due to their lower efficiency. I’ve switched the bi-amp setting on and off over and again to hear the difference and am convinced the T-50’s add to the quality of the sound and not just more sound. The amplifier (Yamaha RX-A3050) has no problem driving the 9 speakers and the Atmos speakers are driven by a Yamaha RX-A3030. Even though I am sold on the configuration, I would appreciate other’s opinions and criticisms on using the bi-amp channels to complement the main speakers.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Passive bi-amping through the AVR's pre-outs only gives you a 3 db increase in available output, and doesn't bring any noticeable audio improvement. IMO, your Klipsch speakers have a high sensitivity and competent passive crossovers. You're not gaining anything.

 

[Alwezhpy]

I’m not using the preouts on the AVR but the internal amps. I think the sound improvement is not from a perceived db increase but from a more fulfilling spectrum from the added drivers and horns. I’m sure you’re correct about the db increase though.

 

[Eppie]

If I understand this correctly, you are basically running a Klipschorn and T-50 in parallel on each channel, left and right (but with saperate amps, not physically in parallel). Just your center speaker is on the center channel amp?

Yes, it's going to sound different, but not something anyone would ever recommend doing. The proximity of each T-50 to the others will cause interference with unknown side effects. Something that might be hard to discern but would show up with in room measurements. Adding those T-50s will give you that wall of sound, and I understand why you like the setup, but from an engineering stand point it would make a sound engineer cringe. Combining two different frequency responses and creating interference patterns will more likely colour the sound in unpredictable ways.

That's the technical side of things. In the end, you're free to do whatever you want if you enjoy the sound. Our old house used to have Klipschorn clones with Electrovoice drivers and I know how amazing they can sound. Even the old 35W/ch Scott tube amp we had drove them to surprisingly high levels. Great speakers if you can fit them in the room.

 

[Alwezhpy]

Eppie, I believe you get what I am doing.
Your critique does make sense, especially on paper. I'm not trying to make anyone cringe, as you say, but I just enjoy the results. I have made this enhancement recently, so I will continue to experiment and listen with and without the second pair of speakers to see just which configuration I enjoy the most. Who knows, after I am done experimenting, it may very well come down to me just thinking the purity of the Khorns by themselves on a 2-channel configuration works best.

 

[Pogre]

I think you may be better served experimenting with a single pair at a time. Possibly play with toe in and positioning. You may find you prefer one set of speakers over the other. You can achieve a big, wide soundstage with a single pair of speakers if you optimize the physical setup. I don't know where you have things now, but start with sufficient distance from room boundaries and setting up a triangle with you and the speakers with tweets at ear height. You can experiment with toe in too.

As you acknowledged, on paper, what you describe is a bit of a trainwreck from a sound engineering and physics point of view. There's a reason receivers aren't really designed to hook speakers up this way. I almost posted here 3 times now but was undecided if I wanted to touch this one, lol. You seem willing to experiment and reconsider tho. You have some large, sensitive speakers. I think you can make a single pair sound really good with a little experimentation and tlc.

 

[Eppie]

Eppie, I believe you get what I am doing.
Your critique does make sense, especially on paper. I'm not trying to make anyone cringe, as you say, but I just enjoy the results. I have made this enhancement recently, so I will continue to experiment and listen with and without the second pair of speakers to see just which configuration I enjoy the most. Who knows, after I am done experimenting, it may very well come down to me just thinking the purity of the Khorns by themselves on a 2-channel configuration works best.

That's a very nice dedicated setup. Would love to be able to hear some original Klipschorns.

 

[Alwezhpy]

I think you may be better served experimenting with a single pair at a time. Possibly play with toe in and positioning. You may find you prefer one set of speakers over the other. You can achieve a big, wide soundstage with a single pair of speakers if you optimize the physical setup. I don't know where you have things now, but start with sufficient distance from room boundaries and setting up a triangle with you and the speakers with tweets at ear height. You can experiment with toe in too.

As you acknowledged, on paper, what you describe is a bit of a trainwreck from a sound engineering and physics point of view. There's a reason receivers aren't really designed to hook speakers up this way. I almost posted here 3 times now but was undecided if I wanted to touch this one, lol. You seem willing to experiment and reconsider tho. You have some large, sensitive speakers. I think you can make a single pair sound really good with a little experimentation and tlc.

I was able to "fine tune" my previous sets of speakers with positioning, however Klipschorns are designed to be firmly pressed into the corners of a room with no toe discretion (with the exception of the latest model) as the room corner walls act as a directional piece of the bass sound path. Klipsch even installed rubber gaskets so the speaker doesn't scrape against the walls.

 

[Alwezhpy]

That's a very nice dedicated setup. Would love to be able to hear some original Klipschorns.

Thank you. I, along with the rest of the world, took the COVID-19 downtime to start my media room. I won't call it a theater as there are certain aspects of a theater which will not work in this room. I'm sure I will never be satisfied that it is finished, but I think I am pretty close.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wouldn't want to use a pair of speakers each for the L/R myself, but I suppose more a if you like it go for it sort of thing, altho the only benefit I could possibly think of simply a bit of fill/volume....as to using an avr for bi-amping, you still have generally the limitations of the single power supply for all channels....but you may not be pushing limits in this sense so it may not matter. Curious, do either of your avrs have the option of setting the T-50s as wides instead of another pair of L/R speakers?

 

[Alwezhpy]

I wouldn't want to use a pair of speakers each for the L/R myself, but I suppose more a if you like it go for it sort of thing, altho the only benefit I could possibly think of simply a bit of fill/volume....as to using an avr for bi-amping, you still have generally the limitations of the single power supply for all channels....but you may not be pushing limits in this sense so it may not matter. Curious, do either of your avrs have the option of setting the T-50s as wides instead of another pair of L/R speakers?

Yes, you're right about the sound stage "fill" comment.
I'm not sure what you mean by wide. If you mean height, I programmed those channels for ATMOS. If you mean surround, I am using Klipsch RS-35 white speakers. You can see them in the attached pics.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, you're right about the sound stage "fill" comment.
I'm not sure what you mean by wide. If you mean height, I programmed those channels for ATMOS. If you mean surround, I am using Klipsch RS-35 white speakers. You can see them in the attached pics.

Some avrs have the options of wides (vs height or rear surround for 7 ch layer, or in 9 or 11 ch modes....I have such an avr, a Denon 4520). I'd prefer that use myself, as it would fit better acoustically with your L/R channels.

 

[Alwezhpy]

This is somewhat unconventional, but I recently started using my bi-amp setup to drive four front speakers. My theater setup was a 7.3.4 configuration with flagship Klipshorns in the front position. In addition to the theater configuration, I just love two-channel listening sessions. The Khorns shine there too. I remember years ago reading about how Paul Klipsch meant for his Klipshorns to work in concert with a center speaker to complete the sound stage. I think he started with a Heresy and ended with a Cornwall configuration.
I wanted to experiment with this, but my center speaker is a Klipsch KV-4. It is a hard to find and great sounding center channel, but is no where near a match for Klipshorns. I had two Klipsch Tangent T-50 speakers sitting in another room. These were the flagship Tangent speakers in the late 1980’s and were mainly sold overseas to our fighting men and women in the service. Again, these are hard to find and really sound great, but they can and do match up with the Khorns nicely. I wanted to use them in my front sound stage for both theater and two-channel listening. And, since bi-amping uses two amplifiers in my receiver while producing identical output, I thought I would try to use the T-50’s as the bi-amp channels. The results were quite astounding as the T-50’s complemented the Khorns and completed the sound stage better than I could have imagined. I believe the key is the Khorns sensitivity is 104db and the T-50’s are 98db. So, when I set up the acoustic levels, the T-50’s produce the same sound as the Khorns but at a lower volume due to their lower efficiency. I’ve switched the bi-amp setting on and off over and again to hear the difference and am convinced the T-50’s add to the quality of the sound and not just more sound. The amplifier (Yamaha RX-A3050) has no problem driving the 9 speakers and the Atmos speakers are driven by a Yamaha RX-A3030. Even though I am sold on the configuration, I would appreciate other’s opinions and criticisms on using the bi-amp channels to complement the main speakers.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

So, after many hours this holiday weekend of enjoyably listening to various genres of music (and a couple movies), I have decided to omit the Klipsch Tangent 50’s and use the Klipshorns alone for my music center stage and use the Klipsch KV-4 for the center speaker when watching movies.
After listening to all the tracks of music with and without the added speakers, I realized what I perceived as added quality was just added midrange and high bass from the horn and three 8” drivers in the T-50’s. I think a couple of you mentioned this above. I’ll replace my Bose 601 III’s in my bedroom with the Tangents.
Thank you each for your input, logic and opinions, it really did help.
In the near future, I will post some of my other systems in other rooms for added input.