Bi-Amp Mains vs Presence Fronts

[GTHill]

I was reading the manual to my Yamaha RX-V2700 and noticed that there were outputs for presence fronts. I'm a rookie so I don't know if presence speakers are used often.

I currently have my fronts (Paradigm Studio 100's) bi-amp'd which uses the presence outputs.

So, which is better? Here is my current system:

All Paradigm

Mains: Studio 100's
Sub: Servo 15
Center: Studio CC-570
Rears: Mini Monitors (the weakest speaker in the system)

The way my room is constructed I can't have speakers on the side (whatever they are called.)

Also, I just noticed that in the Yamaha picture it has the mains very close to the TV. I know that speaker placement is very important (I'm hijacking my own thread). Anyway, any help would be much appreciated!

Gene

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I would say that neither one has much impact.

 

[j_garcia]

I agree. Presence speakers are essentially useless and biamping off a single power supply is also going to add very little benefit ultimately, especially for speakers like the 100s.

There's nothing wrong with Minis as surrounds in your setup. Stepping up to 20s would benefit you, but it isn't going to be a night and day upgrade unless you do a lot of multchannel music listening IMO.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I played around with the presence but didnt get anything out of it. They serve as zone 2 for my set-up. Bi-amping from the same power source is gaining you nothing but the 100's would love it if you bought them an ext. amp.

 

[GTHill]

Keep in mind that I am a rookie, but the 100's would be happier with an external amplifier? Would the difference be noticeable? What amp would you recommend and what will it cost? I can hijack my own thread right?

Hey, how can I get more posts without being ridiculous? I need to sell my PDR-10 sub. And my speaker stands. And an old receiver.

Gene

 

[mouettus]

Bi-amping from the same power source is gaining you nothing

Why is there such an option then?

I can do the same thing with my RX-V1800. Bi-amp the fronts with the surround-backs.

 

[OttoMatic]

Why is there such an option then?

I can do the same thing with my RX-V1800. Bi-amp the fronts with the surround-backs.

I wouldn't say it strictly true that you won't get anything out of bi-amping with a receiver. The implication is that the receiver is limited in how much power it can serve out of its power supply section, and that if you've maxed out two channels of the receiver, you have maxed out the entire system. I would call that type of implementation "power supply limited."

While that may be true for some receiver, it's certainly not true for all. I don't know which, though, and I don't know into which category your receiver falls.

I think this opinion comes from the "all channel driven" type measurements of amplifiers and receivers (or the amplifier section of receivers). Sometimes cheap receivers and amplifiers may specify power (wattage) as something like 120 WPC, but they fail to mention that the measurement is taken with only one channel driven -- and they fail to mention that the amp/receiver will NOT be able to do 120 WPC (or whatever) when all channels are running that hot. It would, for example, only be able to put out, say, 40 WPC when everything is running full steam.

In a case such as that, yes, "bi-amping" with a receiver may not get you any more power to your speakers than it would with "normal" wiring.

However, it's perfectly feasible and very technically possibly to design a single power supply that will be able to provide much more than enough current, at the appropriate voltage, to adequately drive ALL channels of an amplifier to their specified rating. In that type of design, the individual amplifier circuit will hit its maximum before running out of available power from the power supply. This is the right way to design an amp -- allow there to be plent of power from the power supply, and is what I would call "amplfier channel limited."

Another detail overlooked is that even in a power supply limited system, where you may not actually get any more power to the speakers, you have still electrically isolated the top and bottom part of you speakers, and the signal that flows through your speaker cables is different for each "half" and it's different inside the amp. Therefore, you may be able to gain some distinction in sound by bi-amping even at low levels (well before your run out of power from either the power supply or the amplifier circuit.

Now, those are just the facts as I see them. I'm not saying that you will achieve any particular difference by doing this -- you may or may not be able to hear the differences. My recommendation is to experiment if you want, see what you can hear, and stick with what you like.

Have fun!

 

[OttoMatic]

Keep in mind that I am a rookie, but the 100's would be happier with an external amplifier? Would the difference be noticeable? What amp would you recommend and what will it cost? I can hijack my own thread right?
Gene

Hi Gene,

Using an external amp may or may not get you a noticable difference. For the most part, it will give you more power and more headroom (assuming you're increasing in power). If you are a low-level listener, you may find no difference at all. On the other hand, if you love to crank it, and feel that things are "compressed," "distorted" or otherwise funky-sounding, you may very well benefit from more power in the package of an external amp.

What's your current usage, and do you have any negative feelings about the current quality of sound?

 

[GTHill]

I do like to listen to music and movie louder than most. The 100's never sound strained but I have been told by others that they could handle more power than the 2700 could push. More comments are appreciated!

Gene

 

[OttoMatic]

Yeah, I had a look at the Studio 100s online, and I would also tend to think that they could use more power.

If it were me, I would buy a nice amp on AudiogoN. Find something that's nice, that you can resell if you find that it doesn't make a different, or if you don't like it for some other reason.

Here's a Rotel for $499.
I bet this Bryston wouldn't fall short on power ($1,350 obo).
If this Cary Cinema 7b were black, I'd buy it myself ($1,350).
This Adcom would probably do the trick ($475).
These Edge NLs will supply 800 WPC, more than enough! (a bargain at $80,000 --and they have a unique look!)

I have a Sunfire Cinema Grand that, at 200 WPC, never flinches. I've bi-amped my mains with four of its channels, and it will rock -- much stronger than a receiver, especially at volume.

"But," you say, "some of these amps have less power than the Yamaha I'm using." Yeah, although you're using 140 WPC bi-amped to your current speakers, I would expect that these "big" amps are going to give you more in the end. Better power supplies, bigger output stages, greatere impedance handling, etc. Of course, if you want, you can bi-amp with four channels of a seven-channel amp. That leaves three channels for center and rears.

Anyway, there you go!

Good luck.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I like Otto's suggestions and they would work well if you are ok buying used gear. Amps can last along time so it is a pretty safe bet. If money is not a constraint then I would look at getting a brand new Anthem or Rotel so it's covered if anything goes wrong. A cheaper option is look into the Emotiva; a lot of us use them and are satisfied.

 

[norm962]

?

has anyone heard the 11.2 setup that yamaha is rolling out? I really wonder what you'd hear from those 4 presence channels as well. The wattage is lower and the speakers are supposed to be higher up as well so I cannot imagine there'd be a huge difference, but it'd be interesting to have a listen. My concern is that the sound from the presence channels is overprocessed as most movies are designed for 5.1 at best.

as for what to do---play around and see if anything makes a difference. I can't see bi-amping off of the same receiver doing too much however.

 

[mouettus]

has anyone heard the 11.2 setup that yamaha is rolling out? I really wonder what you'd hear from those 4 presence channels as well. The wattage is lower and the speakers are supposed to be higher up as well so I cannot imagine there'd be a huge difference, but it'd be interesting to have a listen. My concern is that the sound from the presence channels is overprocessed as most movies are designed for 5.1 at best.

as for what to do---play around and see if anything makes a difference. I can't see bi-amping off of the same receiver doing too much however.

It'll be a while before I go 7.1, MAYBE 7.2... Let alone 11.2!!! I think it's pretty useless. If you can't make your 7.1 to sound good/great all-around effects, then you have some speaker placement issues IMO!

 

[norm962]

It'll be a while before I go 7.1, MAYBE 7.2... Let alone 11.2!!! I think it's pretty useless. If you can't make your 7.1 to sound good/great all-around effects, then you have some speaker placement issues IMO!

I agree---I cannot imagine that two small speakers way above my head, pumping out lower wattage, and only playing subtle effects will really improve my movie experience that much. I could be wrong on this one, but I cannot see anything more than 5.1 making huge improvements over each formats, espeically if the movie isn't made for the expanded format.

 

[benolium]

I had 2 presence in use with my Yammi Rx-v1400. I could not honestly ever tell if they were working at all. Maybe on certain movies they chimed in, but for the most part imho, a marketing ploy from Yamaha. I guess if you have 2 extra speakers, why not? From what I read, it represents sound coming form behind the sound stage.

 

[fmw]

Pardon my ignorance. What is a presence front? How does it differe from one that doesn't have presence?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Personally, I find 4 speakers sufficient to provide the full surround experience. I would add a center if I had any off-axis viewers, and a sub if I had less bass-capable mains. Beyond that, I fail to see how adding even more speakers could provide any advantage.

 

[OttoMatic]

Pardon my ignorance. What is a presence front? How does it differe from one that doesn't have presence?

It's a pair of signals (L/R) derived from the program material (most likely DD or DTS, during movies) using Yamaha algorithms. The presence fronts are just another pair of speakers using those signals, mounted in the front (and high, I believe).

 

[fmw]

It's a pair of signals (L/R) derived from the program material (most likely DD or DTS, during movies) using Yamaha algorithms. The presence fronts are just another pair of speakers using those signals, mounted in the front (and high, I believe).

Hmmmm. Sounds like the industry is in a race to see how many speakers they can sell people. I can't imagine how it would differ much from having the same material sent from the main speakers without all the additional digital processing. I think I would pass on this concept. I've already passed on the rear surrounds. 5.1 should do it for about anybody, I would think.

 

[mouettus]

Hmmmm. Sounds like the industry is in a race to see how many speakers they can sell people. I can't imagine how it would differ much from having the same material sent from the main speakers without all the additional digital processing. I think I would pass on this concept. I've already passed on the rear surrounds. 5.1 should do it for about anybody, I would think.

Halleluia!!