Bi-Amp High-Frequency and Low-Frequency on denon avrx4400h with KEF R500

[mtrycrafts]

For most audiophiles, it is much easier to use an electronic crossover than to build a smooth passive crossover.

What I like about the QSC DCA series of amps, is that you can use them for bi-amping with their XC-3 two-way crossover with delay. I use these with my DCA 1222s to divide frequencies between the subs and the mid-bass drivers on my 3 front channel speakers. The XC-3 is fixed to the back of the amp saving rack space.

Do you disconnect each speaker's passive crossovers and feed the signal directly to the voice coil of each driver?

 

[Verdinut]

Do you disconnect each speaker's passive crossovers and feed the signal directly to the voice coil of each driver?

I built the enclosures myself so there were no passive crossovers involved at any time between the subs and the midbass drivers. I however built the passive crossovers for the division of frequencies between the midbass drivers and the tweeters.

 

[PENG]

Even with a speaker that is bi-amp capable, I believe even the low frequency driver has passive components after the shorting bar is removed. If that is the case, it is still a passive bi-amp and even if a receiver claims active bi-amp capable, those passive parts are not eliminated. That built in characteristics are still there.

I bet 99% or more bi-ampable speakers are designed for passive bi-amp only, that is, the crossovers remain, only separated between the LF and HF, or LF/MF and HF, or LF and MF/HF drivers with the jumpers removed.

There may be a handful that allow for active bi-amping using jumpers/switches etc., but I am not aware of any. If none of the brand names that I like make such speakers, then DIY would be my only option. Thank goodness I see no need to biamp, and if I change my mind and want to try it, I would be happy enough with passive bi-amp.

 

[Verdinut]

I bet 99% or more bi-ampable speakers are designed for passive bi-amp only, that is, the crossovers remain, only separated between the LF and HF, or LF/MF and HF, or LF and MF/HF drivers with the jumpers removed.

There may be a handful that allow for active bi-amping using jumpers/switches etc., but I am not aware of any. If none of the brand names that I like make such speakers, then DIY would be my only option. Thank goodness I see no need to biamp, and if I change my mind and want to try it, I would be happy enough with passive bi-amp.

PENG,

If you wanted to actively bi-amp speakers, it is rather easy with the QSC DCA line of amps using their XC-3 two-way crossover module that is specifically designed to be fixed to the back of the amp. It even provides for delay adjustment. I am using three of those on my DCA 1222s with excellent results:


https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/dca/q_amp_dca_usermanual_accessories.pdf

 

[PENG]

PENG,

If you wanted to actively bi-amp speakers, it is rather easy with the QSC DCA line of amps using their XC-3 two-way crossover module that is specifically designed to be fixed to the back of the amp. It even provides for delay adjustment. I am using three of those on my DCA 1222s with excellent results:


https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/dca/q_amp_dca_usermanual_accessories.pdf

I disagree, it isn't that simple, not for the best possible performance.

 

[john20182050]

There is a lot to digest here for me. I need to read more. Anyway, I have set it up 7.2 with passive bi-amp for front speakers. My config in the living room follows.

1. Denon AVR x-4400h
2. Front Speaker - KEF R500
3. Center - KEF R200c
4. Surround sides and backs - JBL 530
5. Subs - Monolith 15" Ultra and VTF-3 MK5 HP

Yet to explore the differences the subs, and 1 sub vs 2 subs, and passive bi-amp fronts speakers vs no bi-amp. I have some questions on the crossover and other default settings came with Audyssey setup. I think a new thread would be right for that.

 

[PENG]

There is a lot to digest here for me. I need to read more. Anyway, I have set it up 7.2 with passive bi-amp for front speakers. My config in the living room follows.

1. Denon AVR x-4400h
2. Front Speaker - KEF R500
3. Center - KEF R200c
4. Surround sides and backs - JBL 530
5. Subs - Monolith 15" Ultra and VTF-3 MK5 HP

Yet to explore the differences the subs, and 1 sub vs 2 subs, and passive bi-amp fronts speakers vs no bi-amp. I have some questions on the crossover and other default settings came with Audyssey setup. I think a new thread would be right for that.

Set crossover to 80 Hz or higher for best performance, assuming you have capable subwoofer(s). Also, put at least one AC Infinity USB fan on top, and power it/them externally. Oh, set Eco mode to "auto" so that if you are listening below 48, or -30, it would kick-in to allow the unit to run a few degrees (C) lower.

 

[Verdinut]

I disagree, it isn't that simple, not for the best possible performance.

I have been using active bi-amping for several years and I never encountered any major frequency response or phase problems with the drivers which I used. The speakers which I have used so far have a rather smooth frequency response. The situation is different if you are working with drivers that have resonances and poor frequency response in the music frequency spectrum. IMO, active crossovers allow more flexibility and they are a must when the a woofer is more efficient than the upper frequency drivers, or when you have to divide frequencies below 250 Hz to avoid using inductors with DC resistances in series with a subwoofer, if you want superior transient response.

When you have access to an EQ processor, any major frequency linearity problem and most phase incoherence situations can be resolved. I know that passive crossovers can perform well but I don't see how they can perform better than a properly set actively bi-amped speaker.

 

[PENG]

I have been using active bi-amping for several years and I never encountered any major frequency response or phase problems with the drivers which I used. The speakers which I have used so far have a rather smooth frequency response. The situation is different if you are working with drivers that have resonances and poor frequency response in the music frequency spectrum. IMO, active crossovers allow more flexibility and they are a must when the a woofer is more efficient than the upper frequency drivers, or when you have to divide frequencies below 250 Hz to avoid using inductors with DC resistances in series with a subwoofer, for superior transient response.

When you have access to an EQ processor, any major frequency linearity problem and most phase incoherence situations can be resolved. I know that passive crossovers can perform well but I don't see how they can perform better than a properly set actively bi-amped speaker.

Do you have any REW graphs to share? Not that they will tell the whole story as such, but it will help for sure.

 

[Verdinut]

Do you have any REW graphs to share? Not that they will tell the whole story as such, but it will help for sure.

No, I don't. But eventually, I project to get a MiniDSP Dirac Live processor at some point and when I get my laptop PC fixed, I should be able to provide REW graphs.

 

[john20182050]

Set crossover to 80 Hz or higher for best performance, assuming you have capable subwoofer(s). Also, put at least one AC Infinity USB fan on top, and power it/them externally. Oh, set Eco mode to "auto" so that if you are listening below 48, or -30, it would kick-in to allow the unit to run a few degrees (C) lower.

Here is my question on crossover and other issues audyssey. Please check let me know.
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/denon-avr-x-4400h-audyssey-setup-puts-not-recommended-settings-for-crossover-and-speaker-size.112450/

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also, put at least one AC Infinity USB fan on top...

Just go ahead and make that 2 x 120 mm AC Infinity USB fans for $20.

I tried one fan on my X3100 and it still got really warm after a good karaoke session. But 2 fans kept it cool .

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I thought your Denon was shutting down sometimes when you play bass-heavy contents?

If so, I wouldn’t be trying to bi-amp. And get those dual fans,

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

NOTE: The Denon AVR-X4400H already contains (2) internal fans located on the bottom of the unit. The air is directed up over the heat sinks and out through the top of the unit.

 

[PENG]

NOTE: The Denon AVR-X4400H already contains (2) internal fans located on the bottom of the unit. The air is directed up over the heat sinks and out through the top of the unit.

If you rely on those fans your unit will run much warmer, probably good enough for the 3 year warranty period. Adding one quiet fan is a good $12 investment (thanks to ADTG). I only have 2.5" air space on top, with the fan, I could keep the unit below 40 deg C at the warmest spot on top, and a few degrees lower with Eco mode on, and mine is used as prepro only. If the amps are used, in my application, it would be a few degrees warmer.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

If you rely on those fans your unit will run much warmer, probably good enough for the 3 year warranty period. Adding one quiet fan is a good $12 investment (thanks to ADTG). I only have 2.5" air space on top, with the fan, I could keep the unit below 40 deg C at the warmest spot on top, and a few degrees lower with Eco mode on, and mine is used as prepro only. If the amps are used, in my application, it would be a few degrees warmer.

I’ll do some testing with the temperatures over the weekend and report my results.

It’s true the unit does run a bit warm, I have never heard the fans come on yet, but I don’t drive it hard either. I use it for music and my speakers are very efficient.

 

[PENG]

I’ll do some testing with the temperatures over the weekend and report my results.

It’s true the unit does run a bit warm, I have never heard the fans come on yet, but I don’t drive it hard either. I use it for music and my speakers are very efficient.

Great! I used one of those infra gun, shot it on the same spot and same distance each time.

 

[everettT]

Maybe we can get a mod to merge a couple of threads. Getting confused going back and forth

 

[d3adf1sh]

My receiver is denon avrx4400h. My front speakers KEF R500 supports Bi-Amp. I see my receiver also support true active bi-amp 7.1 setup. When I bi-Amp the front speakers, I see KEF R500 has connections points with label HF (high frequency) and LF (Low Frequency) as shown in the below pic. Now, I have also pasted the screenshot of my receiver 7.1 bi-amp setup from the manual. Now, what is not clear to me is that which one from receiver connects to HF and which one from receiver needs to be connected to LF? The Front endpoint in the receiver has to be connected to HF in speaker or the height endpoints in the receiver has to be connected to the HF int he speaker?

My fronts speakers are KEF R500, not R100. Not my speaker image but mine looks same as below image.

dude i know this is an old thread. but i was reading this and had to say something. Don't listen to these guys saying it's a waste of time to bi-amp your speakers. I have a dennon avr-1911 and polk montor 70 series 2's. the reciever has the bi-amp feature and it definitely makes a difference because you're pushing more power to the speakers. it doesn't matter if the amp is crossing over or not. You're not using a crossing over when running one channel from the amp, so why not get double the power if you're not using the other channels? the speakers have built in crossovers anyway which still work either way. it may not be double the wattage because splitting the high and low drivers will increase impeadance. so it will just depend on the amp how much of a difference that will make.

so if you're using one of the dennon's that HAS the bi-amp feature, i say go for it... and even if you're just using a stereo amp with a/b speaker selection, give it a shot... doesn't hurt to try.

 

[Verdinut]

Here is a good article on bi-amping by Rod Elliott:

BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1

ESP - The Audio Pages. How to biamp or triamp your hi-hi speaker system for greatly improved sound, and higher sound levels with less distortion.

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