"Better than peakers costing many times the price..."

MarkSJohnson

MarkSJohnson

Junior Audioholic
"Better than speakers costing many times the price..."

Anyone ever noticed how many reviewers and manufacturers use this term? If so many speakers are really better than others that are much more expensive, doesn't it get to the point where the lower price IS the standard and the others are just overpriced?

I've often found that line amusing, though I don't think it's ever meant to mislead. I've been keeping an eye out for new speakers along the lines of Axioms, Definitives, Paradigms, etc... and it seems like they're ALL truly an excellent value in comparison to years' past. I remember when a NICE set of speakers (2) were many thousands of dollars; it DOES seem as though speakers that are much less expensive than that now approach the same fidelity.

I usually get in much more trouble (regretfully-wise!) by under-purchasing, not over-purchasing. I'm mostly leaning towards a system being fronted by Axiom 60's, but I can't seem to wrap my head around the idea of an $800/pr. speaker being as good as I would hope other speakers costing many times the price would sound.....

I don't want to spend more money needlessly; I just don't know that they'll really be all I want them to be.

I'm not specifically looking for feedback on the 60s, (though I wouldn't snub my nose at it), but, to those of you that have enjoyed this hobby for a reasonable number of years:

Are speakers REALLY that much better than they used to be? How do some of these sub-$1,000 speakers sound to you in comparison to how you remember some of those multi-thousand dollar classics of yesteryear?

Jeeesh, I'm only 40.... :confused: Maybe THAT's why I'm starting to ramble. Next step? Mumbling incoherently while shuffling down the street in my bathrobe and slippers.... Axiom's under each arm....
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I think the overuse of that term is epidemic, but symptomatic of the need of most reveiwers to find something positive to say. How many flat-out negative reviews do you see nowadays? Let's face it, there are few components that do everything badly, so it's easy to single out something positive. Of course, everything can't outperform other similarly priced models!

I'd like to challenge those reveiwers to print a list of components that they feel don't offer as good a value for the money as other products.
 
B

BuddTX

Audioholic
"Better than peakers costing many times the price..."

Yea, but it's just what I want to hear (and think). (Both me personally, and "me" the average HT/AV fanatic buyer)

It's the audio equivlent to "New and Improved!"

(good obversation, bty!)

I have often said that I will never be able to afford the HT that I really want. I tell people that, "even if I win a SMALL LOTTERY (you know, the 4 million minimum, cash value is 2 mil, govt takes a third, you have about 1.4 mil left), I will not be able to own the ultimate HT equipment! It will take a BIG lottery!

Interesting that you should post this, because I am about to purchase, what I think will be pretty close to an "ultimate" system, for an affordable price.

AND I have to thank forums like Audioholics.com, and other forums, along with internet vendors and internet re-sellers, along with the advice and comments of thousands of other hobbyists out there.

The kind of information that we can get now, is light years ahead of the "magazine only" information that we had before the internet.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Just out of curiosity, what would you want for a system that $1.4 mil wouldn't buy? Unless you're alluding to the fact that it would be tough to justify spending all the money on gear...I could come damn close to my Dream Rig for that kind of coin.
 
rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
I guess I am from a different school than most. I get more satisfaction from buying HT equipment at bargain prices. Not cheap stuff, just a lower price than most pay. I think some people get too much satisfaction from how much they spent on their HT rather than on how it performs.

If we all used the higher price = better performance formula.. The guy who spends $3000 on a BOSE HT might know more than we give him credit for.

Just food for thought..
 
M

Markus

Enthusiast
Let see if I had the 1.4 million it would be spent on:

Seating: 25 Jaymar manhattan theater loungers = $50K
Projector: Runco MBX-1 DLP Projector = $250K
Screen: Dalite Cinema Contour HDTV 108''x192'' = $2.5K
Pre/Pro: Krell Home Theater Standard 7.1 = $10K
Amps: Krell Master Reference Amplifier x7 = $840K
Speakers: Wilson Audio X1 x6,Wilson Watch = $270K
Subs: Krell Master Reference Subwoofer x2 = $60K
Clean Power: Monster HTPS7000, AVS2000 = $5K
Blu-Ray HD Player: Sony BDZ-S77 = $5K
DVD Player: Denon DVD-9000 = $6K
Remote: Crestron Package = $7K
Rack/Room Construction/Acoustics & Cables = $250K

After all is acounted for in canadian funds I am still short with 1.4 million.

Grand total is:$1,755,500.00 Canadian Dollars. "Ouch" and I am sure if I knew more I could spend more.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Markus said:
Let see if I had the 1.4 million it would be spent on:

Projector: Runco MBX-1 DLP Projector = $250K
After spending all that money, shouldn't you at least put in a projector that will work for more than 3 days?

I have spent the last 5 years working on the integration side of the A/V business and I am more than willing to point out equipment and manufacturers that I think have engineering and pricing that is absolutely out of line with the products they produce and they continue to under-engineer their products and make what I consider crap.

Runco, is by far and away the leader of that group.
Now that I am doing more commercial stuff... Barco is a close second.
Third place: Marantz who doesn't seem to actually make a single product, but likes boxing stuff up in pretty packages and putting their logo on it with no regard for actual quality.

Fourth worse companies... Sharp perhaps - who produces a line of "high end" components with serial control that didn't actually include an 'ON' command, and no discreet 'ON' by remote. Yes, that would be their famous Aquos LCD displays.
Phillips who makes the Pronto series of remote controls whose entire functionality is based on discrete controls, then makes a ton of product that doesn't actually HAVE discrete controls.
Adcom who produces multi-channel amplifiers which consistently break down or overheat or have channels simply fail on them regularly. Who cares about saving $200.00 when NOTHING works!!!

Best companies (if somewhat sketchy in several areas):
Sony: Even on their $100.00 products you get halfway decent reliability and discrete codes for on and off and input selection. It's nice that their top of the line has it, but awesome that their cheap stuff does as well.

Yamaha: The difference Yamaha made changed my complete thinking of them as a company. In the V1/2200 era they claimed 'multi-zone' control, but didn't deliver and their serial protocols were bad - plus we saw a lot of bad V1 receivers... and no serial on anything under the flagship. The 2300/2400/2500 and introduction of the Z1 Yamaha gave us true discrete zone 1 and zone 2 (now zone 3 as well!) control via IR or serial as well as consistency from receiver to receiver in those commands, increased power (the 3300 had more power than the V1 did), and phenomenal reliability compared to prior years model. They actually seem like a company that not only listens to customers complain, but even ACT on those complaints to make a better product.

Extron: Their stuff is expensive, but it actually works. If Runco charged 50% more for their product, but actually engineered it to work correctly and consistently, then you would know what Extron is like. Everything I have used from Extron has been excellent.

I actually have a lot more companies that I have been pretty happy with and turn to on a regular basis... (Sanyo, JVC, Mitsubishi, others) But, I gotta tell people when I think something or some company is crap.

Speakers though... I am just a member of the video age and stereo audio and music does very little for me. Just a good surround package with some smooth bass for effects makes me really happy. But, I do run Def-Tech speakers and my sub does NOT make me happy... so I guess I do look for the right speakers and a good value for my dollar. Anyone give a listen to the Def-Tech Mythos line up yet?
 
Rob Babcock said:
I'd like to challenge those reveiwers to print a list of components that they feel don't offer as good a value for the money as other products.
From a practical standpoint you really can't, as that would be perceived as an assault on certain manufacturers (even if you limited it to particular products). You do that, and watch how many people stop sending you products for review ("loose cannon" would be the coined descriptive term at that point). We're not funded by readers like Consumer Reports, so we have a policy of giving every piece of equipment a technical and thorough review (at least the major stuff).

If somebody sends us something that absolutely bombs, we let them know and send the product back - we have to, as our goal is not to destroy anyone, but to improve the quality of what's out there and educate the masses whenever possible as to what's really "good". We also on occasion have helped people improve their designs. I find that to be a much better solution than simply trashing something.

Still, we realize otherws would do things differently, it's a balance for sure. I know one thing - that "better than others..." phrase will most likely not find its way into my reviews (again!) :)

In an aside - if you take a look at our 'value' rating, that's what we use to hammer companies that provide a decent product, but one that could be purchased from another at much less cost. Sp keep your eyes open on our reviews and you can most likley read between the lines.
 
B

BuddTX

Audioholic
Rob Babcock said:
Just out of curiosity, what would you want for a system that $1.4 mil wouldn't buy? Unless you're alluding to the fact that it would be tough to justify spending all the money on gear...I could come damn close to my Dream Rig for that kind of coin.
I guess I should clarify!!

If I had 1.4 mill, just to spend on a HT system, I could be very happy! Even if it involved building a house around the HT system!

If I had 1.4 mill, I would also have other goals, to never work again, be dept free, live forever off the interest of the 1.4 mill. At 10% interest, 1.4 mill would generate 140,000 per year. While that is a nice piece of change, there are probably plenty of two income families in your neighborhood that make that kind of money a year.

People say that you would get board if you didn't work. Well, I work pretty hard, and I think there is a lot of the world to see, and lots to do, and lots of movies to watch and CD's to listen to, that I would not get board! I could find lots to do with my time.

See, at 140,000 / year, to pay off your house (or build one), pay off your bills, own a new car dept free, would take some money, and then to not have a job, you would need a lot of that money to live on.

See, this is why I need to win a BIG lottery! <grin!>

Ahh, to dream!

(Seriously, I could make the 1.4 mil work! - We all could, right!)
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Since I am into music, let me add a speaker line to BMXTRIX's list: Wilson Audio. They are a perfect example of a product whose price is way out of line with what you get. There is nothing in a Wilson (they use OEM drivers just like most other companies) that justifies their five- or six-figure pricetags. I think they are "designed" so that the owner can brag about how much he spent! They are an audio status symbol for the nouveau riche. Yes, they often sound good - as good as many speakers that cost a tenth or twentieth of the price.

Contrast that with a company like Infinity (to use but one example) that really does have major R&D capability, including the ability to design and manufacture their own drivers in-house. When's the last time you saw a $200K speaker from them? Or how about any number of speakers designed by the late great Henry Kloss, who knew how to get great sound out of inexpensive OEM components AND who could design a driver from the ground up. One of his great speakers from the '70s that still sounds pretty damn fine, the original large Advent, was inexpensive enough for me to buy on a student budget with a little scrimping.

If I had 1.4 mil for an audio or HT system, the bulk of the money would go into the room. Donations gratefully accepted.
 
B

BuddTX

Audioholic
rgriffin25 said:
I guess I am from a different school than most. I get more satisfaction from buying HT equipment at bargain prices. Not cheap stuff, just a lower price than most pay.

Well, in my REAL LIFE (The one where I have NOT yet won the 1.4 mill lottery, or any other lottery!), I get great satisfiction knowing that by being a good shopper, and listening to my ear, (not to what someone tells me is supposed to sound good), and being well eductated, my system is far better than what the average person would have gotten, had they went into, say Best Buy one Saturday, and spent what I had spend on my HT system. (That was, until I got hit by lightening!)

Good point, BTY!

So, your system sounds like it should have cost much more than it did! :cool:
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Since I am into music, let me add a speaker line to BMXTRIX's list: Wilson Audio. They are a perfect example of a product whose price is way out of line with what you get. They use OEM drivers just like most other companies. I think they are "designed" so that the owner can brag about how much he spent! The notorious "loose cannon" Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic put it best:

David Wilson [is]...the godfather of the overpriced speaker racket. The Wilson WAMM system costs $147,000 (this was written in 1997) and has nothing in it that justifies even a fraction of its price. The 40-odd rich audiophiles who bought it over the years ended up with a truly superior sound, such as you can get with a (say) $15,000 speaker system, and thus remained perfectly happy because the $132,000 overcharge didn't mean a thing to them financially but boosted their audiophile egos trememdously.
Contrast that with a company like Infinity (to use but one example) that really does have major R&D capability, including the ability to design and manufacture their own drivers in-house. When's the last time you saw a $200K speaker from them? Or how about any number of speakers designed by the late great Henry Kloss, who knew how to get great sound out of inexpensive OEM components AND who could design a driver from the ground up. One of his great speakers from the '70s that still sounds pretty damn fine, the original large Advent, was inexpensive enough for me to buy on a student budget with a little scrimping.

If I had 1.4 mil for an audio or HT system, the bulk of the money would go into the room. Donations gratefully accepted.
 
toquemon

toquemon

Full Audioholic
That's why i hate capitalism, it makes people crazy. Yeah, i had a dream too, one morning i was dreaming about winning the lottery and my mind started to rave; then i happen to be complaining about my car (i could have an Audi A6 biturbo, quattro, tiptronic instead of my VW), my house (I could have a flat in Cancun), my job (i could have a job investigating something very important for mankind with no salary), my girlfriend (i could buy her bigger bubes), my stereo (i could have the thing that Markus put above)....So i don't dream about winning the lottery anymore!
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Forgive me, but with 1.4 million, couldn't you buy an actual theater rather than a home theater?
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Unregistered said:
Forgive me, but with 1.4 million, couldn't you buy an actual theater rather than a home theater?
True! Beyond that, I wonder why at least a few members of the ultrarich class who are music lovers don't emulate Prince Eszterhazy and other patrons of old, who had private orchestras and hired composers like Haydn.

Of course, there's Chesky. He might not be superrich but he does own his own recording company, and he records his own compositions.

Hmmm....The Van Woofer Chamber Orchestra has a nice ring to it, don'tcha think? Keep the donations coming. It's not just for me...but for the sake of Art, after all!
 
Beegowl

Beegowl

Junior Audioholic
Dollar to enjoyment ratio

Try to establish a dollar to enjoyment ratio. We listened to a tinny one speaker battery powered radio back in the days before rural electrification, and enjoyed the heck out of the Grand Ol' Opry. Now, I listen to everything from Angela Keys to Delbert McClinton on my multi $K audio system and don't think I enjoy it any more than I did that radio music back then. It DOES sound better.

I've been listening to speakers for their audio quality for 40 years, and I do believe that quality has gone up while relative cost has gone down. Computer assistance helped in reducing the cost of speaker design and other aspects of speaker construction, I'm sure. But, for the life of me, I can't hear that much difference in the quality of music or sound reproduction in newer speakers compared to good speakers of 30 or 40 years ago. Good speakers sound good. Bad speakers sound bad. People will argue the definitions as long as they have ears. IMHO certain price points exist below and above which speaker quality is established. Below a certain cost, quality suffers, above a certain cost you end up paying for a name instead of an increase in sound quality. But, then, if you have 1.4 $million, who cares?
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
If I had 1.4 mill, I would also have other goals, to never work again, be dept free, live forever off the interest of the 1.4 mill. At 10% interest, 1.4 mill would generate 140,000 per year. While that is a nice piece of change, there are probably plenty of two income families in your neighborhood that make that kind of money a year.

That's what I figured you meant. For most of us "Joe Sixpack" types, as tempting as it would be to sink the money into goodies, paying off our bills and setting ourselves up for financial independence would be more realistic & practical. I'd love to have a $1 million sound system, but I'd be happier if I could live comfortably for the rest of my life without ever working again if I didn't want to.

Even on that budget you could build a near-SOTA theatre system. I wholeheartedly agree with another poster that the room itself would be the most expensive part, but it's a part you'd simply finance when you had your new home built. $15k worth of carefully selected gear in a room that cost $150k would outperform $250k worth of gear in an untreated room.

As for buying an actual theater- yuck! :eek: Why would anyone want to do that? If by that you mean an actual multiplex, I'd pass on that (unless I was a billionaire- then it might be fun to build, say, a ten unit theater and pour several mil per unit into the sound systems). Sure, if you owned it you wouldn't have to deal with gum on the floor, jerks with cell phones, women with big hair, etc, but you'd have a huge space to fill. Bass would probably be far poorer than you'd get in a smaller space. And would you really want to mess around with film canisters? DVD would sure look grim blown up the movie theater screen dimensions.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
hawke said:
From a practical standpoint you really can't, as that would be perceived as an assault on certain manufacturers (even if you limited it to particular products). You do that, and watch how many people stop sending you products for review ("loose cannon" would be the coined descriptive term at that point). We're not funded by readers like Consumer Reports, so we have a policy of giving every piece of equipment a technical and thorough review (at least the major stuff).
I meant that rhetorically. Obviously you wouldn't be a popular guy among manufacturers if you published a "doodie-list" of brands that churn out overpriced crap. Although if I had Bill Gates-level money I'd probably set a $50 million per year legal budget and do it anyway! ;)
 
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