best speakers for 2000

M

mykezm3

Enthusiast
hi all i'm mike and i am a total newbie. i may be putting together a home theatre system from scratch and was wondering what is the best speakers i can get <pair> in the 2k range. i heard good things about the vandersteen 2ce's and the song any help would be appreciated thak you.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Are you looking for just the Mains or Mains + sub or 5.1 or 7.1 in the $2K range.

Also, what is the primary use of your HT?

If mostly for movies & games, go bookshelf speakers and sub (getting floorstanding speakers, ie. full range will be a waste of money)

If mostly for music, definitely get a good floorstanding speaker for the mains.

Look into Paradigm, Definitive Technology, Axiom, SVS, Aperion, and there are a host of other companies that make excellent sounding speakers.
 
M

mykezm3

Enthusiast
well avrat i see you have time to do lots of reaearch. in any case yes i inquired a while ago but nothing became of it. i am ready to jump in now. as for what i want for 2k just the mains for now and it will be mostly for home theatre but music as well.:)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi, Mike. Welcome to the forum. I'll try to help you out, if you like :)

The most important thing for you to know is that getting good sound for your money is all about recognizing that audio is a System. The speakers alone do not determine the sound quality, so we cannot give you a good "buy these" answer. If we do, it's just an endless list of possible speaker choices without any consideration of what will actually work best for YOU.

So the biggest factor is: The Room.

Your speakers and your room have to work together. So we need to know as much about your room as possible.

- Dimensions: Height x Length x Width
- Is the room enclosed, or does it have openings to other areas of the house?
- What sort of surfaces are we dealing with? Floor: carpet or hardwood? Ceiling: flat, textured, vaulted? Walls: drywall, glass (windows, mirrors, etc.), concrete?
- How much are you willing/able to change the layout of the room? Do you have a set placement for your furniture, or would you be willing/able to move things around for the best audio?
- Would you be willing/able to acoustically treat the room? Acoustical treatment can range from hanging curtains and placing bookshelves to using dedicated acoustical treatment products like bass traps, absorbing panels and diffusers.

Pictures are a great help as are drawings/diagrams. ;)

If you're thinking of spending $2000 on just the front L/R Main speakers, that's some pretty serious coin and you owe it to yourself to consider the very best way to spend that money. We may discover that you would be far better off spending $1000 on the speakers and the other $1000 on room treatments. We might also discover that you would be far better off with 2 speakers + a subwoofer.

We also need to know what equipment you will be using with these speakers. What receiver or pre-pro/amp? What sources: Blu-ray, DVD, CD, etc.? And do you have an eye towards eventually building a 5.1 or 7.1 surround system? Because, if you do, it would be much better to plan ahead and select speakers from a brand that also offers matching center and surround speakers that will also work well in your particular room.

It might seem overwhelming, I know :) But if you're talking about spending a good chunk of change - like $2000 for a pair of speakers - then it's WELL worth your while to do things right. Good sound comes from a partnership between your room, the objects that are positioned in that room, the equipment delivering the signal and finally the speakers that produce the sound. So we have to think about that WHOLE system. And thankfully, if we do, we can help you to really get the absolute most from your money.

Looking forward to your reply :)
 
M

mykezm3

Enthusiast
well thank you and yes you are right it seems overwhelming to me. i knew that there were certian specs involved. the reason i didn't consider all of those factors though is ,1 i didn't know about all of them and 2 i assumed i could buy speakers for a particular space and say if i moved or decided to use another space it would be fine. for the moment i did not want to invest in the treatment of the room since it may not be permanent.i mean if i auditioned speakers they are mostly likely not in a simliar space,layout or furnished as the room i would use so that's kind of confusing as well.i guess i need an idiot proof system. i suppose cheaper would be better for now until i can really invest time and some knowledge in the setup.i thought it would be a good to just put together so quality pieces and have something worthwhile but it appears it can be quite consuming.thanks again.do you think one of those out of the box systems would be better for now?
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're welcome, Mike.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to buy speakers that will work well in many different rooms and can follow you should you decide to move to a different room in the future.

There are a couple of ways to address that desire:

1) You can try to roughly guess the size of your current room and what you might expect the room size to be of a potential future room.

One of the most important aspects in choosing a set of speakers is to make sure that they are appropriate for the room's size. Some speakers are capable of playing much louder (without distortion) than other speakers. On the other hand, some speakers that are specifically designed for a very large room will require that you sit a certain minimum distance away from them. If you put speakers of that type into a smaller room, it can be a problem as you might not have the required space.

2) Since you're only looking to buy the Front L/R speakers for the moment, you can opt for smaller speakers with the idea being that if you move to a larger space in the future, you could buy new Front speakers for the larger space and simply move the smaller speakers that you buy now to the surround positions.

From what you've written so far, I'm sensing that you might not be 100% sure of exactly what you want and I'm thinking a lot of that uncertainty is coming from just not knowing all of the many considerations yet. It's no problem :) It's a bit like saying that you want to build a new computer, but not being familiar with every single component that goes into making a great PC. Much like a PC, a great sound system is more than the sum of its parts - it's making sure that all of those parts are in harmony with one another. Working well with each other, rather than fighting against one another.

So the best way to start, IMO, is to tell us what you have now. If we know the details about the room you are in right now, we can start there and simply keep in mind that you also want to be able to move this system to a different room in the future (which is a very common desire).

Once we know about your room, we can hammer out exactly what you want from your sound system and how much money you have to spend.

I know that some forums and some members are not always so nice to deal with. But I'm not like that :) I just think that everyone should be able to enjoy a really good home theater and get the most out of their money. So I'm happy to help and answer any questions you might have.

There are no "bad" questions to ask and no reason at all to feel like you ought to know all of this stuff already. Most things seem really complex at first, but it's just a matter of breaking them down into their parts, figuring out how those parts fit together and figuring out the sort of "hierarchy" of what determines what.

In that "hierarchy", it all starts with your room. Your room gives us a basic set of limitations with which to start. It tells us how far away you will be sitting from the TV, which, in turn, tells us how big the TV ought to be. It tells us how far away you will be sitting from the speakers, which tells us how loud the speakers need to be able to play. Knowing how loud the speakers need to be able to play tells us what combination of speaker efficiency and amplifier power you will need. And the room will tell us whether you will get a lot of reflected sound off of the walls, ceiling and floor, which will, in turn, tell us whether you need to add acoustic room treatments or compensate by buying speakers with certain characteristics that will better suit how much reflected sound will reach your ears.

Within all of that, we can certainly keep in mind that a future room will be different, but the key is to get you great sound now that will also work well in a future room.

So with some details from you about your current room and what equipment you already have, we can take this step by step, answer all of your questions along the way, and wind up with a really great system that fits your budget and needs!

Sound good? :D
 
M

mykezm3

Enthusiast
sounds good sir. the room is aout 13'L x 22'W x 7 1/2 ' H. its on the second floor so because of the roof the ceiling isn't flat,it tapers down as it approaches the walls.floor is hardwood. the TV will face lenghthwise in the room.walls are sheetrock.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Sorry Mike, didn't mean to sound snippy. I just thought maybe you had done a little more research, but I guess not.

FirstReflection lays things out pretty well. Another thing to take into account, when just buying the R/L for a HT setup is that you'll be able to purchase the matching center later on. No, a HTiB is not necessary for your budget. Heck, for $2K you can put together a good quality 5.1 setup. For around $1800 shipped, you could purchase an Ascend Acoustics CMT-340/CMT-340C/HTM-200 combo and an SVS PB12-NSD.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
OK, Mike.

Sorry that I didn't write back sooner - just been busy lately :)

So your current room is "less than ideal". That's not a knock. Just think of it in the sense that if someone set out to design a room specifically for audio, they would change some things :)

Your room is likely highly reflective when it comes to sound. You have hard, flat surfaces everywhere. Your room is also large enough that reflected sound (echoes) will travel far enough that the delay between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be long enough to "confuse" your brain and "muddy" the sound.

In a room such as this, there is basically one good option and one reasonably good option. The good option would be to acoustically treat your room so that it will be a better environment for sound.

This doesn't necessarily mean buying products that are specifically only for acoustic treatment. Since it sounds as though this might not be a permanent residence for your audio system, I'm guessing that you probably don't want to invest in a whole bunch of acoustic panels that you may or may not be able to use in a future room.

But what we can do is use "natural" materials to improve your acoustic environment. The first thing would be to lay a rug on that hardwood floor. It doesn't have to cover the whole floor. What you're really after is a rug centered half way between your seat and the speakers.

Think of the sound "bouncing" like a billiard ball. The sound goes from the front of the speaker, "bounces" off the floor and comes back up to your ears. You want to put a rug in the area where the sound would "bounce" so that it gets absorbed, rather than actually reflecting off of the floor and reaching your ears.

The same idea applies for both side walls. You want to reduce the sound that "bounces" off of the side walls and reaches your ears. You could hang heavy drapes or wall hangings at those positions on the side walls. Another option is to put a bookcase at those side wall positions and place differently shaped objects on those bookcases so that the sound is "scattered". Another option is to put large, leafy plants there to , once again, "scatter" the sound rather than let it reflect strongly off of the side wall.

Also, at the back of the room, directly behind you, you'll want to "absorb" or "scatter" the sound as much as possible to avoid a strong reflection off of the back wall. So same ideas - heavy drapes, wall hangings or something that will "scatter" the sound.

If you can opt for plush furniture, that will help. You'll want to have objects in your room that absorb and scatter sound. Basically, what you are trying to achieve is a situation where the sound coming directly from the speakers to your ears is many time stronger (louder) than any reflected (echo) sound. This is what yields articulate, detailed, clear sound. No matter how accurate and good your speakers are, if you are getting lots of strong reflections from your room surfaces, those speakers will sound "muddy", indistinct and unclear.

If you honestly cannot change the furniture in your room at all in order to improve your acoustics, then the reasonably good solution is to purchase speakers that are more directional (ie. they don't "spread out" their sound as much). This is often called "controlled dispersion" and, again, the whole idea is to reduce the amount of reflected sound vs. direct sound reaching your ears.

Now, another issue is going to be bass. Bass is very hard to control in ANY room. We use acoustic products called "bass traps" to try and mitigate some of the worst effects that the room has on bass frequencies, but the basic problem is that bass sound waves are very long, which means that when they reflect off of the walls, ceiling and floor, they "double back" on themselves, which causes all sorts of problems. Sometimes, the waves "double up" , which creates a "peak", meaning an inappropriately loud bass note at certain frequencies, while other times, the bass waves will "cancel" each other, leading to a "null", which is a complete lack of a certain bass note.

Whether you hear "peaks", "nulls" or something in between depends entirely upon your seating location relative to the position of the subwoofer and the walls, floor and ceiling around you.

"Bass traps" are typically just large, sound absorbing wedges that go in the corners and edges of your room. The idea is simply to reduce the reflected bass waves so that they do not interfere with the direct sound coming from your subwoofer or large speakers.

So again, you can opt to purchase some bass traps, which would be a good solution. But they honestly can be quite large and impact the looks of your room, which you may or may not be willing to do.

The reasonably good solution for bass is to use two sources of bass (ie. two subwoofers) and position them so that - at your seat - you get relatively flat (no peaks or nulls) bass by virtue of their combined output coming from two different locations. Typically, the best positions for two subwoofers would be at the middle of two opposite walls - so basically directly in the middle of the front wall and the back wall; or directly in the middle of both side walls.

I am a fan of combining basically ALL of these solutions. Try to improve your overall acoustic environment by introducing furniture and objects that absorb and scatter sound. For sure try and get that rug in place and something on the side walls and on the back wall. Introduce bass traps if you are able and willing. I'm DEFINITELY a fan of using two subwoofers! As for the speakers, if you have a good acoustic environment, then I'm a fan of a speaker with wide, even dispersion so that you get a nice, wide "sweet spot" and the sound remains the same whether you are sitting directly in the middle seat or off to one side or the other. But in a less than ideal acoustic environment, I favor using speakers with controlled dispersion so that the "throne" seat gets very clear, detailed sound. And while seats to either side won't sound quite as good, they will still benefit from hearing fewer reflections.

A final note before I actually recommend some speakers :p

Decoupling - VERY important.

Your speakers and subwoofers are going to shake. There's no way around it. Manufacturers like to talk about how inert their cabinets are, but - the real world being what it is - your speakers and subwoofers are going to shake!

The shaking is the result of the speaker cabinets moving in sympathy with the movement of the speaker drivers (the tweeters, cones and domes that are actually making the sound). And at certain frequencies, the cabinets of the speakers will actually resonate and produce relatively loud sound of their own.

Most of the time, people just plunk their speakers and subwoofer directly on the floor. Most speakers and subs have little "feet" or maybe even "spikes". Sometimes, the claim is made that these "feet" or "spikes" isolate the speakers from the floor. That is completely false, I'm afraid.

If the speaker/subwoofer is touching the floor, then it is going to shake the floor - simple as that. If you put little "feet" on the bottom of the speaker, all of the speakers' weight is now "focused" into those 4 little points! That is NOT isolation.

What we need to do is to put some sort of "shock absorber" in between the bottom of the speaker and the floor. You do not want them physically shaking the floor. If the floor shakes, then the walls will shake and so will the ceiling and so will the whole house! That results is unwanted sound and unwanted sound is also called distortion.

Bottom line, we want to put a "shock absorber" in between the speakers/subwoofers and the floor (or shelf) and that is called decoupling.

So with all of that knowledge in place, for $2000, this is what I recommend:

Two HSU VTF-2 MK3 subwoofers.

The most impressive part of home theater is great bass. So I say, do NOT skimp in this area! Bass is also extremely important for realistic music.

For your budget , the pair of HSU VTF-2 MK3 subs would easily be my top choice, but if their physical size is too large or the price is too high, you could opt for a pair of SVSound PB10-NSD (barely any smaller and barely any cheaper); or, if you're willing to give up just a bit of the absolute lowest bass notes, you could go for a pair of HSU STF-2, which are definitely smaller and cheaper. Another potential option would be to get one HSU VTF-2 MK3 and one HSU STF-2. That would reduce the cost, give you the greatest portion of the sonic benefits of two subwoofers and allow the VTF-2 MK3 to handle the lowest of the low notes that the STF-2 cannot quite reach.

Regardless, I recommend very strongly that two subwoofers is the best choice for you. It's the best choice for almost anybody, really! But in your case, it's a particularly good route to take because it will allow you to lay a really great bass foundation, which is vital for experiencing truly thrilling movies and music.

More Below!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Remember decoupling?

This is not an option, IMO: get a pair of Auralex GRAMMA isolation risers to put underneath your pair of subwoofers. The GRAMMA is the perfect size for any of the subwoofers that I have recommended and it is stellar in its job of decoupling your subwoofers and preventing that unwanted distortion from physically shaking the floor.

If you can manage to address some of the reflections in your room (rug, drapes, bookcases, etc.), then I would certainly recommend the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 speakers.

These are excellent speakers with amazing clarity and detail for a relatively low price (for their performance). Their dispersion is quite wide, but the combination of the Sierra-1 speakers and two HSU subwoofers would be absolutely incredible for both movies and music!

If you go with a combination of:

1 x HSU VTF-2 MK3
1 x HSU STF-2
2 x Auralex GRAMMA
1 x pair Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1

with shipping, you will be within your $2000 budget and have sound quality that, IMO, no $2000 pair of tower speakers can equal.

So that is my recommendation to you and my lengthy reasoning :) This is, by no means, the only good suggestion, but the way I always put it: if it were MY money and I had your room, this is what I would choose to buy. You will get an excellent bass foundation and you will get a truly excellent pair of front speakers that also offer a clear upgrade path when you want to expand to a full 5.1 surround system in the future. Having the dual subwoofer gives you the flexibility to move to other rooms in the future and still achieve excellent results for your bass. And the Sierra-1 speakers are amazingly linear and even in their sound output, which means that they can deliver consistently excellent sound in almost any room. Their 2-way bookshelf design also means that you can move to a smaller room in the future without worrying about placement restrictions and they are capable of very loud output without distortion so that they could also be used in a larger room in the future if that is the case.

I hope this is helpful to you and best of luck in your purchase!
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
used b&w 804's they will bring tears to your eyes :)
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Use a systamatic approach in getting the right speaker and avoid internet brands until you get an idea for teh sound you are looking for.. Here's what I would do if I were you..

What I would do is to take a pad of paper with you, write down the make and
model of each speaker you audition and what you liked and disliked about the
speakers you were auditioning. Was the bass tight and deep or was it boomy and loose sounding? Were the mids life like or were they hollow or just too pronounced? Was the treble irritating and harsh or were they dark and not revealing or were they smooththat made you want to listen for more? How was the imaging?

Bring music with you that you are very familiar with and know quite well. To
make it easier to audition HT speaker systems, listen to the main speakers in 2
channel mode with music. Music is much harder to reproduce accurately then a
movie soundtrack so if the speakers do well with music, then they will do well
with HT. Speakers that do HT well may not do well with music. When auditioning the center channel of the same brand and series as the main speakers, pick a difficult source like an announcer that mumbles alot. If you can understand what the mumbling announcer is saying, then you have a good center channel.

I would go to speciality stores first and start auditioning speakers first
instead of going to the internet first. Once your likes are determined, you can
mention them here and fellow members can make internet brand recommendations based on your likes/dislikes. The specality stores are better setup acousticaly then the big box stores which will make auditioning a little easier. It will give you an idea of what you like in a speaker.

Keep track of what amp or receiver is powering the speakers you're auditioning. Try to get a receiver/amp that closest resembles what you have or want to get. It just reduces another variable when audtioning speakers.


One thing to keep note off. When auditioning speakers, make sure the volume
levels are matched between the diiferent speaker pairs because the louder
speaker pair will always sound better. Listen to levels that you think you
would listen to most of the time because thats how you are going to be using
them most of the time.

That being said.. you may find teh perfect speaker system out there but then its gotta work for the rom they are bring put into. Other forum memebrs have really laboured over teh importance of room acoustics on this thread so you get the idea of how important room acoustics is. Use my apporach in selecting teh speakers and then try them at home if you can to see if you like ehat you hear at home. Good luck and enjoy the fun in seaerching out new speakers . :)
 
M

mykezm3

Enthusiast
wow thanks all for all the advise. this is much more complicated than i imagine,guess i have my work cut out for me.
 
S

smitty78

Audioholic Intern
That was a great breakdown of acoustics, FirstReflection. Some very good advice for us newbies.
 
T

Toroid

Audiophyte
I say get the Vandies (make sure you get a powerful amp, however). Phenomenal speakers for the money.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
wow thanks all for all the advise. this is much more complicated than i imagine,guess i have my work cut out for me.
There is no need to make the process complicated. Some of us enjoy the journey as much as or more than the end goal. :D

At a minimum I would go listen to a few speakers with music you are familiar with. From there, the rest is good advice, but optional. As long as you are happy with what you buy.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I think the advice to get a VTF2 and a STF2 is a bit strange. More ideal would be a VTF2 and a MBM 12, because you are suggesting that the STF2 be used in a role that the MBM is intended for. The MBM will play those midbass frequencies far greater than the STF2 would. Personally though, I would just go for the VTF3 or something from Rythmik, and if I found that wasn't enough bass for my liking I get another one later. A worthy alternative to the Hsu subs are the ones from Outlaw Audio, which are nearly clones of the Hsu with some small differences.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
mike

Although most if not all of the above advice is good, and is offered with good intentions, there is no reason to let it overwhelm you. Room acoustics will always have a major effect on sound regardless of which speakers you get. Get the best sounding speakers you can find in your price range, and deal with room acoustics, step by step, as you can once you have your speakers.

Yes, you can buy speakers for a particular space and use them successfully if you move or decide to use another space. It's done all the time.

The two speakers you originally mentioned, Vandersteen 2ce's and Salk SongTowers, are both excellent choices for your price range. I am quite familiar with the Vandersteens, and I own a pair of SongTowers. Read my own impressions of them (see link below).

I think the SongTowers look better, have a smaller footprint, and require less powerful amplification than the Vandersteens. As far as their sound, I can tell you what I prefer, but your own preference is what matters. It is time you auditioned some speakers. Vandersteens are sold by dealers, look around where you live. Salk sells internet direct only, and sells them with a 30-day money back policy.

I live in Gaithersburg, MD. If that isn't far, come listen to mine. If that isn't possible, you can check the Salk Owner's Audition list here, or just ask at that same site to see what SongTower owner lives near you who is willing to let you hear them.
 

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