Best processing for DTS-ES Matrix?

aarodynamics

aarodynamics

Enthusiast
I’ve been noticing lately that a number of Blu-rays in my collection have DTS-HD MA 5.1 ES tracks. I’d guess that most of these movies were originally released on DVD before Blu-ray with DTS-ES Matrix tracks which is why their Blu-ray releases retained the matrixes 6th back center channel.

If I set my receiver (Monolith HTP-1) to Native then it engages the Neural:X upmixer just the same as if I force Neural:X - they both output across all my speakers.

With that said, I generally use the DSU (Dolby Surround Upmixer) for all non-Object based sources.

Is DSU capable of correctly extracting the matrixed back center channel from a DTS-ES Matrix track?
Is Neural:X even capable of this?
Do either DSU or Neural:X handle this better than one another?

Bonus question... does either DSU or Neural:X handle mono tracks better? I’ve also noticed that I have a number of Blu-rays with LPCM 1.0 or DTS-HD MA 1.0 tracks.

Thanks!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The correct answer is......It DEPENDS. :D

Just gotta try out both NeuralX and DSU back and forth and see which one you PREFER.

Most of the time I prefer NeuralX for sources that are 1CH, 2CH, and MCH that are non-Atmos.
 
aarodynamics

aarodynamics

Enthusiast
But are both DSU and Neural:X capable of extracting the matrixed 7th back center channel in DTS-ES 5.1 Matrixed sources?

How about DD-EX Matrixed sources?

Will these modern object upmixers send that matrixed 7th back center channel to the back speakers in an Atmos setup?

Thanks!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I would think that if the source is DTS-HD MA ES and you use "standard" sound, then it would be DTS-HD MA, not NeuralX.

On my Yamaha CX-A5100 pre-pro, you would only get NeuralX if you actively choose NeuralX. But I guess every pre-pro is different.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
But are both DSU and Neural:X capable of extracting the matrixed 7th back center channel in DTS-ES 5.1 Matrixed sources?

How about DD-EX Matrixed sources?

Will these modern object upmixers send that matrixed 7th back center channel to the back speakers in an Atmos setup?

Thanks!
Wouldn't the Back Center Channel be 6.1, not 5.1?

Anyway, I think if you had the back center channel, you would hear some surround ambient sounds from the that speaker with NeuralX.
 
aarodynamics

aarodynamics

Enthusiast
I would think that if the source is DTS-HD MA ES and you use "standard" sound, then it would be DTS-HD MA, not NeuralX.

On my Yamaha CX-A5100 pre-pro, you would only get NeuralX if you actively choose NeuralX. But I guess every pre-pro is different.
On my Monolith HTP-1 processor setting it to “Native” (equivalent to Yamaha’s “Standard”) enables Neural:X. Setting it to “Neural:X” unsurprisingly also enables Neural:X.

My older (non-Atmos) Denon receivers had DTS-ES modes and DD-EX modes, but my latest Monolith and NAD processors haven’t had these modes. My previous NAD had a bizarre implementation though where DTS-ES tracks wouldn’t work if you didn’t engage Neural:X (horribly volume and choppiness problems).

Wouldn't the Back Center Channel be 6.1, not 5.1?
“DTS-ES Matrix 5.1” is 6.1, but it includes a matrixed back center channel but is still referred to as “DTS-ES Matrix 5.1” compared to “DTS-ES Discrete 6.1”.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
But are both DSU and Neural:X capable of extracting the matrixed 7th back center channel in DTS-ES 5.1 Matrixed sources?

How about DD-EX Matrixed sources?

Will these modern object upmixers send that matrixed 7th back center channel to the back speakers in an Atmos setup?

Thanks!
DTS-ES dvd was mostly a 6.1 discrete and Dolby D EX was mostly 7.1 matrix if I’m remembering 2004/2005 correctly. :) Back then you would use PL2 upmixer for 7.1 matrix on a 6.1 source like DTSES.

Dolby DSU and DTS NeuralX upmixers are capable of 7.1.4 matrix. They will even take stereo to 7.1.4. :)
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Sounds a bit like what my Denon 4520 would do with DTS-HD MA 5.1 tracks, if I use that sound mode it expands automatically to 7.1, needed direct mode to avoid that. I'd think some sort of direct sound mode would retain 6.1 playback....and the processor would pick one of your rear surrounds for that, maybe use both. Really have run into the 6.1 stuff so infrequently I don't remember what it did with that now that I think about it....
 
aarodynamics

aarodynamics

Enthusiast
DTS-ES dvd was mostly a 6.1 discrete and Dolby D EX was mostly 7.1 matrix if I’m remembering 2004/2005 correctly. :) Back then you would use PL2 upmixer for 7.1 matrix on a 6.1 source like DTSES.

Dolby DSU and DTS NeuralX upmixers are capable of 7.1.4 matrix. They will even take stereo or mono to 7.1.4. LOL :)
DTS-ES Matrix 5.1 and DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 are actually on a lot of Blu-rays of early 2000's films in the form of DTS-HD MA 5.1 ES & DTS-HD MA 6.1 respectively. Back in the day you needed to use the DTS-ES mode on your processor to extract the Back Center Channel on Matrix mixes and I recall that ProLogic IIx actually didn't extract that Back Center Channel correctly... this is where my concern lies with using DSU (and even Neural:X) for these ES Matrix mixes.

Maybe NEO6 would preserve 6.1 playback.
These newer processors only have Neural:X though instead of the older Neo:6 and DTS-ES modes which is part of why I'm trying to figure this out. One school of though is that Neural:X replaces all the previous DTS processing while another could be that those ES Matrix & DD-EX Matrix tracks will forever have their Back Center Channel lost in time to an obsolescent proprietary protocol. So I guess my question should partly be... is there anything proprietary about the way DTS-ES Matrix and DD-EX Matrix encoded the Matrixed Back Center Channel or was it done in a way that any upmixer easily is capable of decoding it?

Thanks!
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
6.1 sound tracks were 1st introduced by THX...
Next Dolby made it 6.1 EX but shortly thereafter came out against it advising the center back channel collapsed the separation of the rear channels. Next came the AVRs with 7.1 channels, and under the Dolby license, designed the EX sound tracks to be processed as Dolby Digital EX 7.1 preserving the channel separation..

Quote from the Dolby license manual..
"While Dolby Digital EX decodes 5.1-channel programs into a 6.1-channel format, it is common for products to offer accommodation for both 6.1- and 7.1-channel speaker configurations. In the case of a 7.1-channel system, the Bs signal is fed equally to two separate speakers (LB and RB). To account for the resulting increase in loudness, the signal splitter applies 3 dB of attenuation to the LB and RB signals. The use of two back speakers is recommended rather than one, as this helps spread the effect more evenly in the listening room..."

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
My Yamahas have Neo6 and Dolby DSU and NeuralX. They are 2016 and 2017 models. I haven’t used 6.1 since 2005 and never tried 7.1 I do 5.1 and am planning for 5.1.4 soon.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I’ve been noticing lately that a number of Blu-rays in my collection have DTS-HD MA 5.1 ES tracks. I’d guess that most of these movies were originally released on DVD before Blu-ray with DTS-ES Matrix tracks which is why their Blu-ray releases retained the matrixes 6th back center channel.

If I set my receiver (Monolith HTP-1) to Native then it engages the Neural:X upmixer just the same as if I force Neural:X - they both output across all my speakers.

With that said, I generally use the DSU (Dolby Surround Upmixer) for all non-Object based sources.

Is DSU capable of correctly extracting the matrixed back center channel from a DTS-ES Matrix track?
Is Neural:X even capable of this?
Do either DSU or Neural:X handle this better than one another?

Bonus question... does either DSU or Neural:X handle mono tracks better? I’ve also noticed that I have a number of Blu-rays with LPCM 1.0 or DTS-HD MA 1.0 tracks.

Thanks!
So what is your actual speaker layout?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My Yamahas have Neo6 and Dolby DSU and NeuralX. They are 2016 and 2017 models. I haven’t used 6.1 since 2005 and never tried 7.1 I do 5.1 and am planning for 5.1.4 soon.
You know I have 5.1.4 for my 26' x 22' x 14' HT room. ;)

Works awesome for me. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
6.1 sound tracks were 1st introduced by THX...
Next Dolby made it 6.1 EX but shortly thereafter came out against it advising the center back channel collapsed the separation of the rear channels. Next came the AVRs with 7.1 channels, and under the Dolby license, designed the EX sound tracks to be processed as Dolby Digital EX 7.1 preserving the channel separation..

Quote from the Dolby license manual..
"While Dolby Digital EX decodes 5.1-channel programs into a 6.1-channel format, it is common for products to offer accommodation for both 6.1- and 7.1-channel speaker configurations. In the case of a 7.1-channel system, the Bs signal is fed equally to two separate speakers (LB and RB). To account for the resulting increase in loudness, the signal splitter applies 3 dB of attenuation to the LB and RB signals. The use of two back speakers is recommended rather than one, as this helps spread the effect more evenly in the listening room..."

Just my $0.02... ;)
So 6.1 is basically nothing more than a "reduced" version of 7.1? :D

The "rear Center channel" is really just a rear "single surround" channel? That makes sense.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
[
So 6.1 is basically nothing more than a "reduced" version of 7.1? :D

The "rear Center channel" is really just a rear "single surround" channel? That makes sense.
As posted previously I was never a big fan of 6.1 AVRs so we focused our development efforts on 7.1 but frankly speaking the additional 2 channels was used mostly for Zone 2. Here 1 brand, Harman/Kardon took a major step forward by including the well-respected Logic 7 modes from Lexicon in their AVRs. And the market quickly followed to 7.1, as more channels are perceived as better..
In 2005 I attended a technical seminar presented by DTS at the Hollywood Recording Academy and they presented a matrix system using overhead loudspeakers. It was very impressive as now the listening room/sound stage became active, the audio was less directional from a single loudspeaker but very fulfilling. The guys @ DTS were very creative and actually had a step up on Dolby, as they were connected with Universal and Matsushita. Next they bought Neural whose IP was crucial to XM Radio and adopted certain algorithms, which they marketed as NEO 6. Back then there was a lot of competition between DTS & Dolby for market leadership, driven 1st by domination in movie theaters. But the DTS cinema system used a CD for the audio tracks compared to printing the audio tracks on the film like Dolby did. For a short time DTS enjoyed the spotlight highlighted by the Eagles DVD release of Hell Freezes Over 1st only available with DTS 5.1 audio, as then the Eagles were the #1 music group ...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I remember the Blade 2 DVD had DTS-ES discrete and that had some scenes where 6.1 was cool. :)

I don’t have the space for 6.1 or 7.1 in my current home, though. :)
 
D

Denx4100

Enthusiast
Why do we have all these replies that don't even deal with the question asked? The question is not whether there ever were DD EX,OR DTS ES, BUT WHETHER THE CURRENT UPMIXERS DSU, NEURAL X CAN EXTRACT ANYTHING FROM THOSE TYPES OF ENCODED DVDS OR BLURAYS!!!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Why do we have all these replies that don't even deal with the question asked? The question is not whether there ever were DD EX,OR DTS ES, BUT WHETHER THE CURRENT UPMIXERS DSU, NEURAL X CAN EXTRACT ANYTHING FROM THOSE TYPES OF ENCODED DVDS OR BLURAYS!!!
YES THEY CAN!!!! All the new upmixers are backwards compatible and will just unfold the es/ex info into the pair of rear surrounds of 7ch or fold down into surrounds of a 5ch system. It doesn’t extract anything. It just moves it to the applicable layout that you have.
Ex and es were stupid anyways and didn’t work because of the way people hear things behind them. There were issues with it from the start and they stopped implementing it for a reason.
 

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