Best high end monitors at around 6000-9000 EUR a pair

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I can't help you with professional monitors, but I know there are some on AH that can (I know @KEW has talked about Focal studio monitors before) but I REALLY like your budget and am curious to read the responses!
Sorry for the delayed response, but I knew this would be more than a casual post, so waited until I had a bit of free time!
When I first started looking to update my (late 70's) system 10 years ago, I had found a pair of used Paradigm Signature S-2's which I was very happy with, but I wanted to see how much I was still "leaving on the table" as far as SQ of speakers (certainly I have still not heard any speakers that I could mistake for a live acoustic performance - with electric/rock several come close!). I am lucky to live close enough to Atlanta to have some high-end audio shops around and based on advice from here, I found a Focal dealer (he had a showroom, but was more of an installer as he had little foot-traffic) who was willing to let me bring in my Paradigm Signature S-2's and two Marantz SR6001's (at the time I was not convinced that differences between amps would not make a significant difference, so I had bought two Identical AVR's just for speaker A-B) and set up a A-B comparison. The guy stayed around when I was hooking things up (I suspect to make sure that I did not do anything which would fry any of his gear - I haven't done that yet, but am happy to have someone double checking me - I have my share of brain farts from time to time!), then left me to it while he went into his office to take care of some paperwork.
I compared the Focal Electra Be towers and recognized that the Focals were better than the Paradigm S-2's, but I had gotten a killer deal on the S-2's (with stands) for $1350 (IIRC) from a guy who was setting them up in what is best described as a sunroom (lots of glass and the S-2's are bright speakers) and the Focal towers went for $8000! I wasn't willing to commit at that level.
I was a fan of the 2.2 approach as implemented with my S-2's, so I looked at the bookshelf Electra Be ... seems like they were close to $4K which was a possibility, but then I found out about the Focal Solo6 Be which was a studio monitor that appeared to have the exact same drivers as the $4K Electra (my memory of prices is sketchy, so I am making them up to convey the general situation). I found a pair of Solo6 Be returns at Sweetwater (Internet pro-audio dealer) which (IIRC) were around $2000/pr and liked the attitude of the guy I spoke with at Sweetwater, so I decided to give them a shot (I actually only bought one to test, but the guy assured me they would have another return before long - I don't know if they just move so much inventory or if he was willing to sell new inventory as B stock). Although I would have liked to, I was not going to knowingly waste the Focal dealers time (or offend him by) bringing in pro audio Focals to compare with his Electra towers. The best I could do was compare the Solo6 to my S-2's and I found the same types of differences in the same places/songs I had noted in my comparison to the Electras, so I was very happy with the Solo6's!
Buying pro audio open box returns, I had saved about 50% over home audio and I think it would have been about 30% if I had not chosen B-stock. Of course, that 30% savings is based on MSRP. As far as I can tell, the only thing I sacrificed was cosmetics (although Focal advertises their curved baffles as being an audio enhancement, which I think is true in theory, but obviously not significant enough to concern recording engineers where "the rubber meets the road"!). Of course, I don't know that the Solo6 Be is absolutely the true equivalent of the Electra Be bookshelf and there is also the fact that amplification is covered (and custom matched) with the Solo 6Be.

My general takeaway from this experience is that pro audio does indeed cut through some of the BS and generally offers more value for your money!
Exceptions are:
1) Anything Dennis Murphy has done (and, by extension, Salks speakers - if you are willing to pay for the incredible craftsmanship Jim Salk puts into his cabinets/finishes). I think Selah Audio may offer pretty good value, but I have not really dug into them.
2) Closeouts and discounts. Deals like the current DCM TP and TFE series being sold on eBay or the Infinity References and JBL Studio when they have their sales discount anywhere from 50% to 75% from MSRP represent amazing values when you can find them on speakers that were good for their original price. Occasionally we will see an exceptional deal pop up on Accessories4Less. These types of bargains do not seem to come as often on pro-audio although we have recently seen JBL LSR-305 at $90 each. The main limitation here is we essentially never see these kinds of deals on premier/top-of-the-line products which have much lower sales volumes and, thus, are manufactured in much smaller batches with more of a Just-in-Time approach!
3) and, the obvious wild card is buying used - I'm sure there have been many equally incredible deals made on both pro and home audio, but many of us don't have the time and patience to find the special deal. For me, every now and then, I will take a quick look on Craigslist just to see what is there. Usually not much I really have interest in [and even then the competition from item 2) above makes it hard for used product to compete]. My one "find" is my Martin Logan Vistas in great shape at $1500/pr. where the seller was upgrading into "hand me down" Summits from his boss. My Vistas were the previous "hand-me down" from his boss!

You want a speaker for home use, in a medium sized room, with a listening distance 1.8-2 m or 5.9 to 6.6 feet. Those studio monitors you mentioned are optimized for near field or mid field listening. Maybe you would be better off if you looked for speakers optimized for far field listening. With far field listening and larger rooms, mid range and higher frequency off-axis performance and the resulting imaging capability, become much more important than in smaller rooms like recording studios.
I have heard this argument enough times, but I see near and mid fields defined as:
Nearfield monitors are designed to be positioned approximately one to two metres away from the listener, making them ideal for smaller studios, whereas mid-field monitors are generally larger and optimised for positioning between two and four metres away from the listener.

So, near-field and mid-field interface at 6.6 feet which is close to the distance you are suggesting for home systems. I know your room is set up with the larger dimension from side to side. For many of us it is the other way resulting in listening distances closer to 8-11 feet (which better makes your case). However, I have to wonder how often it is that a speakers which is designed to have good imaging at 6.6 feet has poor imaging at 11 feet. On the other hand, this makes the 2-4 meter distance of a mid-field monitor perfect for me! It seems a reasonable argument that these speakers are optimized for my listening distance while a home audio speaker appears not to care (I don't think that is true, I suspect most well-designed home audio speakers are designed for something like 5-15 feet - maybe bookshelf speakers a bit closer?)
I think the biggest issue is that you need near field speakers if you are going to be sitting 3' away from them because the drivers from many speakers will not properly integrate until you are farther away simply due to the physical distance between the drivers!
I would love to see measurements showing the imaging behavior of some more common speakers (both pro and home audio) at various distances to get a sense of how sensitive speakers generally are to this issue. I can say that I have not noticed any short-comings on this count with the pro audio speakers I do have (JBL LSR 305, JBL 306P mk2, Presonus C3.5 BT, Presonus R65, Focal Solo6 Be, and Focal Twin6 Be).
I should say that I never listened (critically) to the Presonus C3.5 from more than 8' away - they are 3.5" speakers that I use for travel. They fit perfectly in a padded camera bag I found and I will pack them if I am traveling by car and going to spend more than one night in a hotel room. If I am renting a house at the beach for a week, I will also throw an 8" Sony subwoofer I found for $15 at Goodwill in the trunk to have an "audio happy place" near! I have certainly heard the C3.5 BT from across the LR or eating at the dining table at a beach house and they sound fine, but I am sitting in a chair in a proper location whenever I have listened carefully to them.

To respond directly to Egoquaero, I think your reasoning is sound with the caveats I have expressed above.
Looking specifically at the monitors you have listed, I am only able to comment on the Focal, and my thought with respect to the Focal Trio 11 Be (MSRP $7200/pr) is you should consider Focal Twin 6 Be (MSRP $3960/pr) if you will integrate with subwoofers. There may be analogous situations with the other monitors you are considering, but the $3240 saved will easily pay for a great pair of subs to mate with the twins and if you get the Trios, I am not at all sure you will realize the benefit of the 10" woofer over the twins.
You may get lucky, but I have seen too often where attempts (with proper measurement/evaluation) to use the bass from full range speakers have failed and the best solution involved a crossover at 80Hz or even higher because the proper location of the L&R speakers was not the proper location for subwoofers in their room!

Additionally, with the Focal Twin 6 Be's you have the additional endorsement of DTS labs, who chose to use the Twin6 Be (with Solo6 Be for height speakers) in their California demo HT room (photo below) and the Solo6 Be in their overseas (I forget where) HT demo room.


I should mention that for stereo, you will be better off standing Twins up with the tweeter on the inside edges. I'm certain that DTS made sure that the sweet spot covers their seating, but standing them up will result in a broader sweet spot!

It looks like they have a system in place for listening to their speakers ("Book a Demo" link)!

Edit - I should also give a "shout out" to active design!
In the case of the Twin and Solo, each 6.5" driver gets a 150WRMS Bash amp and the Be tweeter gets its own 100WRMS class A-B amp! Active crossovers allow some additional opportunity for tuning compared to passive. Most importantly, the manufacturer can specify the exact amp to use with their drivers. I set up my Solo6 Bes in my full basement (very large open space with only a few columns) and I cranked them LOUD! My "oh poop!" moment came when the sound of the right speaker cut out! Before I could dive for the remote, the left speaker cut off! Trust me, my adrenaline had me "cranked up" at this point! I turned off the speakers, turned down the volume at the pre, slowly counted to 60 (just to make sure any electronics had the chance to cool/reset), turned the speakers back on and involuntarily held my breath as I slowly turned the volume up (all while wondering how much new drivers would set me back).
Happily they came on just like normal, but I still spent the next half hour listening very carefully to assure myself there were no new distortions!
You can't get this type of protection from any normal home system I know of!
I like what Tom V. says about his PSA subs (well-designed subs also have the advantage of custom matching amplification/electronics to the driver). He says "They are pretty much "bullet-proof" ... but don't take that as a challenge!" :D
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Triad Gold Monitors ($3500 each) are amazing speakers. Triad just won best of show with their Gold Monitor system at the CEDIA show in September. I personally own them and love their silky-smooth Scan-Speak drivers.


We use Triad speakers exclusively. Triad is a Portland-based company that hand builds speakers in just about every configuration you can imagine. They will even color match the speakers and grills to match the paint on your walls.

Triad has In-Wall and angled InCeiling speakers and subwoofers that work amazingly well for spaces in which you have no floor space, or when you wish to hide the speakers from view.

While not a household name, Triad is a favorite of custom installers and has won numerous industry awards. The company is also a prototype partner for Dolby, helping to design speaker systems for immersive audio.

Let me know if we can help.
Curious, is Triad international and has distribution in europe?
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
I would take a look on Genelec 1038B, best sounding speakers I have heard by far. Or some newer similar model should share the same sound quality. Yes, they are really ugly but they sound amazing.

Quite many studios around the world use Genelec monitors as well.
 
E

Egoquaero

Enthusiast
Wow what a reply, KEW! Thanks for your time and for sharing your passion with us.

So… my understanding is that you actually recommend me to get a lower tier pair of speakers and with the saved money buy better subs. It sounds reasonable but I have a few thoughts/questions.

1) Do you guys think that the difference between Trio6 BE with my two subs and Trio11 BE with the same subs would be quite negligible? (or Neumann 310 vs Neumann KH 420)
I'm no expert but I feel like the 10 inch woofer will deliver more energy, body vibrations in the mid/upper lows than the 7-8 inch found in KH 310.
Put in another way… what do I get with a 6000-7000 eur pair of monitors that I don't get with a 3000-4000 eur? (besides more bass and SPL)

2) I have two subs already, two Klipsch R-115SW. They're consumer grade, but I feel they do their dirty job pretty well. So I'm not sure if it would make sense for me to replace them anytime soon. I feel like the law of diminishing returns has an even greater effect on the subwoofer market.

3) I perfectly agree with KEW on the fact that optimal bass source positioning might not coincide with main speakers positioning. However getting a pair of big mains (like the Focal Trio11 or the Neumann KH 420) would give me 4 distributed bass sources. This might give me an edge in achieving a more balanced, smoother and tighter bass overall. What do you guys think?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Wow what a reply, KEW! Thanks for your time and for sharing your passion with us.

So… my understanding is that you actually recommend me to get a lower tier pair of speakers and with the saved money buy better subs. It sounds reasonable but I have a few thoughts/questions.
I'm not sure that the Twin 6 is a lower tier than the Trio 11. I would consider it more like the difference between a 3-way tower and a 2-1/2-way oversize bookshelf from the same series. However, there may be some benefits to the smaller mid-range in the Trio and I have not checked the Focal website in years to see where they place them.

1) Do you guys think that the difference between Trio6 BE with my two subs and Trio11 BE with the same subs would be quite negligible? (or Neumann 310 vs Neumann KH 420)
I'm no expert but I feel like the 10 inch woofer will deliver more energy, body vibrations in the mid/upper lows than the 7-8 inch found in KH 310.
Put in another way… what do I get with a 6000-7000 eur pair of monitors that I don't get with a 3000-4000 eur? (besides more bass and SPL)
I think that is a better plan! - use the Trio 6. I think with subs, the only advantage of the Trio 11 would be lost with the subs. The "tiny" Solo 6 has plenty of energy to deliver sharp/hard drum hits at volume in a good sized room as @Alex2507 will testify (I will never forget the way he looked at me when he heard this). Even 5" drivers are typically good to 60Hz, and the 8" driver of the Trio6 Be is rated to 35Hz. I feel very confident it will have more than enough "oomph" (that you will not use because of the subwoofers - but the objective is to make sure you have ample resources ... without being totally reckless with your budget buying performance you will never tap into).

2) I have two subs already, two Klipsch R-115SW. They're consumer grade, but I feel they do their dirty job pretty well. So I'm not sure if it would make sense for me to replace them anytime soon. I feel like the law of diminishing returns has an even greater effect on the subwoofer market.
The Klipsch R-115SW (and the R-112SW) was a significant product in that they are perhaps the first subwoofers from an old established speaker company that was truly competent! Many think they are crap because Klipsch subwoofers have historically been crap compared to the ID subwoofer competition. Buying better (more expensive and higher performance) would primarily get you lower frequencies. IMHO, we are now talking HT frequencies and shaking your sofa/walls/etc. however, there are some who (perhaps because of their choice of music?) feel "20Hz and below" performance is needed for music. You know the R-115SW as well as your living situation (if in an apartment, your neighbors will not appreciate the heavy boom boom boom that will penetrate the walls), if you have enough bass for you, I would not upgrade! I consider "how low is low enough" a personal preference issue. If I were in your shoes, I might be looking at adding a third R-115SW if you have the place for it. A fourth might be useful, but I would try 3 first!

3) I perfectly agree with KEW on the fact that optimal bass source positioning might not coincide with main speakers positioning. However getting a pair of big mains (like the Focal Trio11 or the Neumann KH 420) would give me 4 distributed bass sources. This might give me an edge in achieving a more balanced, smoother and tighter bass overall. What do you guys think?
Your thinking is, again, sound... in theory! However, unless the two positions for your speakers is optimized for bass, they can be more of a negative than a positive. @Pogre was in that exact situation, having mains which were quite capable down to 24Hz (IIRC). He understandably wanted to take advantage of them as additional sources of bass to smooth out the response in his room. However, despite trying everything he could (and he was using FR measurements to be able to know what he accomplished) he got the best response by having his two subs in their best positions and crossing his mains at 80Hz or higher. If you are interested in reading his experience, he documented it in a thread here. Let me know and I will find it.
You might be lucky and your mains may end up in the right place for bass, but speakers, must, obviously be placed in the proper position for speakers and subs need to be in their best position. It is not an easy bet that the two will coincide!

Again, I am only speaking to the Focals because that is what I know, and I know they are good! I have no reason to think any of the others you are considering might not be as good or better!
 
E

Egoquaero

Enthusiast
Your thinking is, again, sound... in theory! However, unless the two positions for your speakers is optimized for bass, they can be more of a negative than a positive. @Pogre was in that exact situation, having mains which were quite capable down to 24Hz (IIRC). He understandably wanted to take advantage of them as additional sources of bass to smooth out the response in his room. However, despite trying everything he could (and he was using FR measurements to be able to know what he accomplished) he got the best response by having his two subs in their best positions and crossing his mains at 80Hz or higher. If you are interested in reading his experience, he documented it in a thread here. Let me know and I will find it.
You might be lucky and your mains may end up in the right place for bass, but speakers, must, obviously be placed in the proper position for speakers and subs need to be in their best position. It is not an easy bet that the two will coincide!

Again, I am only speaking to the Focals because that is what I know, and I know they are good! I have no reason to think any of the others you are considering might not be as good or better!
thanks again!
Yes please, let me know if you can post the link to the thread.
I always hear about people crossing over at around 80hz. I'm not sure what happens if I don't set the crossovers and let all 4 sources of bass run. I use Dirac Live 2 coupled with Minidsp SHD. I wonder how the EQ system decides which bass to attenuate and which not (when choosing between 4)... does anyone know the mechanism?
 
E

Egoquaero

Enthusiast
A few people suggested me to go cardioid technology with models like Kii Three and Dutch & Dutch 8c.
They're another step up in price and I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you guys think?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If you are looking for a really good triamped studio monitor, ATC is the one to go for.

ATC speakers have the best midrange units around. So their mid band response is exemplary. You find their speakers in the best studios around the world. The powered electronics in the speakers is superb.

This might be a little above your budget, but is I could pick a pair of speakers the meets you specs, a pair of these would be top of my list. In the US they are $18,000 per pair.

 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
If you are looking for a really good triamped studio monitor, ATC is the one to go for.

ATC speakers have the best midrange units around. So their mid band response is exemplary. You find their speakers in the best studios around the world. The powered electronics in the speakers is superb.

This might be a little above your budget, but is I could pick a pair of speakers the meets you specs, a pair of these would be top of my list. In the US they are $18,000 per pair.

@TLS Guy,

I would refer you to posts # 17 & 18 above. I agree with the fact that this ATC has an excellent midrange dome driver, but this triamped speaker is no match to either the Neumann or the Eve monitors in the low frequency response. IMO, the Neumann represents the best value if the OP wants to respect a certain budget.

EDIT: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086804-REG/neumann_kh_420_3_way_studio.html/reviews

Also, with any of the ATCs, you obviously need at least one good subwoofer to be able to get decent LF response down to 30 Hz.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
The problem with most pro audio loudspeakers is that most of them don't have a decent response that digs below 40 Hz. Even most of their their subwoofers don't compare with the type of infrasonic response available on the audiophile market. Among the only exceptions are some of the huge Danley Sounds Labs subs which can dig to below 20 Hz.
Here is info on one of them:
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
@TLS Guy,

I would refer you to posts # 17 & 18 above. I agree with the fact that this ATC has an excellent midrange dome driver, but this triamped speaker is no match to either the Neumann or the Eve monitors in the low frequency response. IMO, the Neumann represents the best value if the OP wants to respect a certain budget.

EDIT: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086804-REG/neumann_kh_420_3_way_studio.html/reviews

Also, with any of the ATCs, you obviously need at least one good subwoofer to be able to get decent LF response down to 30 Hz.
Again you are obsessed with the last octave. Whether a speaker rolls off at 40 Hz or 20 Hz is almost irrelevant. What really matters is a good power and response (not just frequency response) from 40 Hz to at least 400 Hz coupled with exemplary midrange and power response to at least 4 KHz. That is what is of primary importance.

This obsession with the last octave has led to the largest downgrade in most systems since the Hi-Fi era of the fifties. The content below 40 Hz of music is small. Most organs only have 16 ft principals and a speaker rolling off at 40 Hz can reproduce it perfectly. The 32 ft stops are infrequency engaged and almost always for transient effect.

So what is the modern curse. Speakers abounding with woefully inadequate power band response from 40 to around 800 Hz, coupled to a powerful sub turned up to0 high in a futile attempt to cover the above deficit. Currently there is a massive abuse of subs. I would bet that goes for the majority of member systems.

With an exemplary speaker like I sighted GENTLY supplementing it with a sub will get you the last octave if you want it. I have heard the above speakers and they do not sound in the least bit bass deficient. I have heard plenty of speaker supplemented with powerful subs that actually do sound bass deficient, because they are,

It is high time to get back to basics and understand where the bass decades lie and the power band responses they require. We have gone way off the rails.
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
Do you know how these ATC would compare with Genelec? As Genelec has some of the best monitors I have heard but never had a change to hear anything from ATC.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Do you know how these ATC would compare with Genelec? As Genelec has some of the best monitors I have heard but never had a change to hear anything from ATC.
I have to say, I have heard both and was somewhat underwhelmed by Genelec. I certainly prefer ATC over Genelec. In addition I have had a university prof. in my room who has Genelec in his studio and wished his speakers were as good as mine. He is a percussionist by the way.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I have to say, I have heard both and was somewhat underwhelmed by Genelec. I certainly prefer ATC over Genelec. In addition I have had a university prof. in my room who has Genelec in his studio and wished his speakers were as good as mine. He is a percussionist by the way.
I'm going to have to make the pilgrimage to audio Mecca before too long!
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have to say, I have heard both and was somewhat underwhelmed by Genelec. I certainly prefer ATC over Genelec. In addition I have had a university prof. in my room who has Genelec in his studio and wished his speakers were as good as mine. He is a percussionist by the way.
Do you remember what Genelec model they were and what were they lacking? I have heard quite many of their monitors and I must say thay only the 1038B was really shining. Smaller models were good but I would compare some of them to my KEF R500 for the sound quality and some I did not like at all.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Do you remember what Genelec model they were and what were they lacking? I have heard quite many of their monitors and I must say thay only the 1038B was really shining. Smaller models were good but I would compare some of them to my KEF R500 for the sound quality and some I did not like at all.
No I don't remember it. For the record I did hear a small pair of Neumann monitors on top of the main MPR studio in St Paul a while back and they were excellent.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm going to have to make the pilgrimage to audio Mecca before too long!
Once we are over and recovered from the holiday season, then we would be open to the possibility of visitors.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
No I don't remember it. For the record I did hear a small pair of Neumann monitors on top of the main MPR studio in St Paul a while back and they were excellent.
If they make their speakers like their microphones, I can believe it. I have a U87, older one, that makes recording live music a pleasure.
 

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