Best Amp For A Coffee Shop Sound System (using Jbl Control One speakers)

[GeorgePasca]

Hello,

I'm doing a sound system for a coffee shop (more like an ambient pub actually). I'm using Jbl Control One's (8 ohms) as speakers.
Right now there are 4 speakers in 2 rooms, powered by a Yamaha a500 old HiFi amp. Not a bad amp, it puts out 70W per channel at 8 ohms, with a 0,08 thd, >50 damping factor. I couldn't find the exact owner manual but it seems accurate.

The system will be upgraded with 4 more speakers, so I am searching for a couple of amps (same model) (the yamaha will be replaced).
I searched on the internet and found a some amps that have good reviews: Yamaha A-S500, Rotel RA-04SE, Marantz PM6003, Pioneer A-A6 and cheaper ones from cambridge audio and cheaper models from Rotel. The remote would help as you would be able to control both amps at the same time.


My question is: Do you know of any vintage models that would be of an equal sound value and do you have any thoughts on the selected amps above or any suggestions of others.

I'm not looking for very expensive models but I am looking for a best buy.

Thank you, George.

 

[highfigh]

Hello,

I'm doing a sound system for a coffee shop (more like an ambient pub actually). I'm using Jbl Control One's (8 ohms) as speakers.
Right now there are 4 speakers in 2 rooms, powered by a Yamaha a500 old HiFi amp. Not a bad amp, it puts out 70W per channel at 8 ohms, with a 0,08 thd, >50 damping factor. I couldn't find the exact owner manual but it seems accurate.

The system will be upgraded with 4 more speakers, so I am searching for a couple of amps (same model) (the yamaha will be replaced).
I searched on the internet and found a some amps that have good reviews: Yamaha A-S500, Rotel RA-04SE, Marantz PM6003, Pioneer A-A6 and cheaper ones from cambridge audio and cheaper models from Rotel. The remote would help as you would be able to control both amps at the same time.


My question is: Do you know of any vintage models that would be of an equal sound value and do you have any thoughts on the selected amps above or any suggestions of others.

I'm not looking for very expensive models but I am looking for a best buy.

Thank you, George.

How large is this place, what kind of music and at what SPL will the music be played? "Ambient" is a relative term, so you're not going to get universal answers. If it's just background music at low listening levels, amp specs mean absolutely nothing. With the limited bandwidth of those speakers, the amp specs will also mean nothing unless it's really noisy and the high end is completely gone.

Consumer brand equipment isn't made to run all day, every day. A lot of it has been used that way, but that doesn't mean it will last a long time.

 

[JJMP50]

Only slightly relevant...

This thread reminded me that about 35 years ago I gave a friend of mine a "stereo" that I wasn't using to put in a little corner diner he was opening. It was a Panasonic thing that had a turntable and FM tuner with 2 crappy speakers. Fast forward to about 2 years ago..I visited that same diner (different owners now) and that Panny was still there spitting out AM talk-show blabber to the Cholesterol consuming group gathered at the counter.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello,

I'm doing a sound system for a coffee shop (more like an ambient pub actually). I'm using Jbl Control One's (8 ohms) as speakers.
Right now there are 4 speakers in 2 rooms, powered by a Yamaha a500 old HiFi amp. Not a bad amp, it puts out 70W per channel at 8 ohms, with a 0,08 thd, >50 damping factor. I couldn't find the exact owner manual but it seems accurate.

The system will be upgraded with 4 more speakers, so I am searching for a couple of amps (same model) (the yamaha will be replaced).
I searched on the internet and found a some amps that have good reviews: Yamaha A-S500, Rotel RA-04SE, Marantz PM6003, Pioneer A-A6 and cheaper ones from cambridge audio and cheaper models from Rotel. The remote would help as you would be able to control both amps at the same time.


My question is: Do you know of any vintage models that would be of an equal sound value and do you have any thoughts on the selected amps above or any suggestions of others.

I'm not looking for very expensive models but I am looking for a best buy.

Thank you, George.

According to this your speakers are four ohms and not eight, and so you need to be careful.

If you need control in the two rooms you need impedance matching volume controls. This will reduce your power available.

Your best option is to invest in a professional multi channel distribution amp amp.

A lot depends on whether you need control in the different room, or if you want to control the sound in the rooms from a central point.

I really do not advise using consumer gear for this application, although as you have pointed out, older amps tend to be more robust than newer ones.

In commercial situations, I always advise professional equipment, it is the best, safest and most reliable solution.

 

[GranteedEV]

This appears to be more along the lines of what you need.

With that said, I don't think the Control Ones are an appropriate choice for your application. These are passive near field monitors. They may be affordable, but they are not designed for this sort of use and may become damaged as well as fail to provide smooth coverage. If you are adding more speakers, I highly recommend considering speakers designed for public address or commercial fixed installation, not studio monitoring.

 

[TLS Guy]

This appears to be more along the lines of what you need.

With that said, I don't think the Control Ones are an appropriate choice for your application. These are passive near field monitors. They may be affordable, but they are not designed for this sort of use and may become damaged as well as fail to provide smooth coverage. If you are adding more speakers, I highly recommend considering speakers designed for public address or commercial fixed installation, not studio monitoring.

That amp is 70 volt.

The problem is the OP has already made the classic mistake of the small business owner.

He should have put a 70 volt system in to start with. It would have been a lot cheaper and adding rooms is a breeze.

There are just so many reasons not to use domestic gear in commercial establishments. Commercial equipment belongs in commercial establishments.

We get so many of these posts and the owners think it is a simple. Well it is if they change their outlook.

He could still use his speakers if he buys a transformer for each speaker to go with a 70 volt PA amp.b

 

[GranteedEV]

Yes, it's a 70V amp. As far as I'm aware, "ambient sound" is exactly the application they are for. Apparently it can be purchased online as well as some other options including Crown.

I have no doubt there should be online instructions on the transformer business you're speaking about.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, it's a 70V amp. As far as I'm aware, "ambient sound" is exactly the application they are for. Apparently it can be purchased online as well as some other options including Crown.

I have no doubt there should be online instructions on the transformer business you're speaking about.

If not I can tell him. I have been though this so often we should have a sticky about it.

 

[highfigh]

This appears to be more along the lines of what you need.

With that said, I don't think the Control Ones are an appropriate choice for your application. These are passive near field monitors. They may be affordable, but they are not designed for this sort of use and may become damaged as well as fail to provide smooth coverage. If you are adding more speakers, I highly recommend considering speakers designed for public address or commercial fixed installation, not studio monitoring.

They're part of the commercial line and they can definitely work in an application like that He posted that it's an "ambient" cafe, not a place for high SPL. If that POS Panasonic has lasted this long, the JBLs will. However, as soon as some idjit decides they "know how it should sound" and starts jacking with the controls, all bets are off.

 

[highfigh]

That amp is 70 volt.

The problem is the OP has already made the classic mistake of the small business owner.

He should have put a 70 volt system in to start with. It would have been a lot cheaper and adding rooms is a breeze.

There are just so many reasons not to use domestic gear in commercial establishments. Commercial equipment belongs in commercial establishments.

We get so many of these posts and the owners think it is a simple. Well it is if they change their outlook.

He could still use his speakers if he buys a transformer for each speaker to go with a 70 volt PA amp.b

The bad thing is that he already has 4 speakers but the good thing is that the Control 25T isn't a lot more money and comes with a transformer for 70V/100V.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/install/control/JBL.Ctrl25T.pdf

To maintain the look of the existing speakers, I agree that buying more transformers would be the way to go.

 

[TLS Guy]

The bad thing is that he already has 4 speakers but the good thing is that the Control 25T isn't a lot more money and comes with a transformer for 70V/100V.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/install/control/JBL.Ctrl25T.pdf

To maintain the look of the existing speakers, I agree that buying more transformers would be the way to go.

Those speakers would have been his best solution. However he can get transformers fairly cheaply, about $80 for all eight speakers.

 

[GeorgePasca]

Hello, thank you all for your replies.

These are the speakers:
-------------------------
h t t p ://w w w. jbl. com/EN-EU/Products/PagesProductDetails.aspx?PID=CONTROL%20ONE
---------------------------
(i can;t link it because i don't have 5 posts yet ) So cool )

I tested the 140W of the amp into all 4 speakers and made the windows shake from the bass (no bass boost), at full power it was at the limit of distorting, but it wasn't there yet HiFi amp are as reliable as PA amp imo and I saw tones of these amps use for coffee shops going at least 18/24h a day, I also have a friend that can repair it if it goes (with quality beta-matched power transistors and such).

There are 5 rooms, with large doors openings (2/3 m; the doors are taken out).
The main two rooms are 6/5.6/3.8 m
The other 3 smaller rooms are 6/>3/3.8 (haven't gotten around to measure them yet)

I am a sound engineer for live concerts, this project is a favor for my friends. I am posting on this forum because I'm not that familiar with installed sound systems.

I selected the 8ohm speakers because I knew that for now they couldn't afford a high quality 70/100V amp. And a second hand HiFi amp would do.

I bought 2.5 mm quality speaker cable so the damping factor and quality will be OK.

The reason I didn't want a distributed 70/100V system in the coffee shop was that these systems are for commercial use, meaning sound quality is not a factor they tend to value. The 70/100V is good with mids and flexible.

I don't want a PA amp in there either, because those are made for power, not clarity (aprox. 0.5 thd). And the >0.1 thd ones are way to expensive and overpowered.

A HiFI system is designed for fidelity at low levels up to mini-cinema loud levels, and that is what I'm looking for.

The acoustic of the rooms is pretty good and i will position the speakers above the door entries to minimize corner bass resonance and to get good coverage at the tables, as nobody will be sitting in the doorways.

I need the pub to sound as "homey" as possible.
Currently only the main 2 rooms will have speakers. The other 3 will get some sound from the main ones, as I will aim speakers at them while keeping a max coverage in the main rooms.

The next upgrade will put speakers in the other rooms. Prob 4-6 more speakers.

And the finally upgrade will double the number of the speakers (so i can make stereo pairs with the existing ones).

I don't really care about impedance as i can afford to go 4/8/16 ohm cause i don't need that much power, i can do the math, and the cable is not that expensive. I know the speakers will be a bit underpowered maybe but I wouldn't mind taking the risk.

It would be very nice to have every room on a separate channel, not necessarily with volume control but with an on/off switch.

Plus a HiFi amp has a more natural feeling for the person working with it then a PA amp or a commercial high power system. And most HIFi's have at least A/B outs.

So, back to my question: What HiFi amp would you recommend (both new or vintage) ?

Thanks, George.

 

[TLS Guy]

Those speakers are four ohm and not eight. You don't seem to need our help. Get any amp handy.

 

[KEW]

You've gotten good advice here.

I selected the 8ohm speakers because I knew that for now they couldn't afford a high quality 70/100V amp. And a second hand HiFi amp would do.

Your speakers are not 8 ohm speakers! Don't know where or how you got that in your head! Here is JBL's spec sheet since you don't seem to believe TLS Guy or Parts Express:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=195&MId=5

And most HIFi's have at least A/B outs.

Yes, and often these vintage HiFi's will tell you not to run 2 pairs of 4ohm speakers at the same time using these A/B outs!
As a matter of fact the A500 is not supposed to even be used for 4 ohm speakers! If you look at the back of your A500 next to the speaker connections, I believe you will see that it recommends that you only run 8 to 16 ohm speakers - and 16 ohm if you plan to run both A & B at the same time. Here is a pic of the back of the A500:

So the takeaway is you can do what you want, but that doesn't mean we will recommend what you want.
Just be sure the coffee house's fire insurance policy is good, the owner isn't going to hold a grudge if the worst happens, and maintain a good rapport with your electronics service buddy!

Realistically, you are far more likely to damage the equipment than start a fire, but if you don't want to do it right, don't ask for advice from knowledgeable people.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Hello, thank you all for your replies.

These are the speakers:
-------------------------
h t t p ://w w w. jbl. com/EN-EU/Products/PagesProductDetails.aspx?PID=CONTROL%20ONE
---------------------------
(i can;t link it because i don't have 5 posts yet ) So cool )

I tested the 140W of the amp into all 4 speakers and made the windows shake from the bass (no bass boost), at full power it was at the limit of distorting, but it wasn't there yet HiFi amp are as reliable as PA amp imo and I saw tones of these amps use for coffee shops going at least 18/24h a day, I also have a friend that can repair it if it goes (with quality beta-matched power transistors and such).

There are 5 rooms, with large doors openings (2/3 m; the doors are taken out).
The main two rooms are 6/5.6/3.8 m
The other 3 smaller rooms are 6/>3/3.8 (haven't gotten around to measure them yet)

I am a sound engineer for live concerts, this project is a favor for my friends. I am posting on this forum because I'm not that familiar with installed sound systems.

I selected the 8ohm speakers because I knew that for now they couldn't afford a high quality 70/100V amp. And a second hand HiFi amp would do.

I bought 2.5 mm quality speaker cable so the damping factor and quality will be OK.

The reason I didn't want a distributed 70/100V system in the coffee shop was that these systems are for commercial use, meaning sound quality is not a factor they tend to value. The 70/100V is good with mids and flexible.

I don't want a PA amp in there either, because those are made for power, not clarity (aprox. 0.5 thd). And the >0.1 thd ones are way to expensive and overpowered.

A HiFI system is designed for fidelity at low levels up to mini-cinema loud levels, and that is what I'm looking for.

The acoustic of the rooms is pretty good and i will position the speakers above the door entries to minimize corner bass resonance and to get good coverage at the tables, as nobody will be sitting in the doorways.

I need the pub to sound as "homey" as possible.
Currently only the main 2 rooms will have speakers. The other 3 will get some sound from the main ones, as I will aim speakers at them while keeping a max coverage in the main rooms.

The next upgrade will put speakers in the other rooms. Prob 4-6 more speakers.

And the finally upgrade will double the number of the speakers (so i can make stereo pairs with the existing ones).

I don't really care about impedance as i can afford to go 4/8/16 ohm cause i don't need that much power, i can do the math, and the cable is not that expensive. I know the speakers will be a bit underpowered maybe but I wouldn't mind taking the risk.

It would be very nice to have every room on a separate channel, not necessarily with volume control but with an on/off switch.

Plus a HiFi amp has a more natural feeling for the person working with it then a PA amp or a commercial high power system. And most HIFi's have at least A/B outs.

So, back to my question: What HiFi amp would you recommend (both new or vintage) ?

Thanks, George.

This is simple & very basic to design as long as we stick to the "KISS" principles....

Use this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-612 $229

It will impedance match 6 pair of speakers and allow for individual volume control for each pair as well as A/B sourcing if you ever want to seperate rooms or zones.


And this: http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8255&class=Receiver&p=i $160

So, for around $400 you can do your coffee shop with no problems. We've used this exact same set up on projects both commercial and residential where the budget was very low and it works great. Your problem is not effectively solved with just a "What AMP?" solution. It requires two parts to work properly, offer value, & still be flexible.

 

[BMXTRIX]

If you have a bunch of speakers you want to power, then get an amp which is designed for speaker distribution.

eBay has any number of them:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=12+channel+amplifier&_sacat=See-All-Categories

I would recommend Niles, Speakercraft, and Sonance as best choices.

Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Niles-SI-1260-12-Channel-Amplifier-/160554635061?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2561cd4f35

This allows for up to 12 speakers at 4ohms, or wired as 24 speakers at 8ohms to play the same source, or with a matrix pre-amp to allow for different sources in up to 6 separate stereo zones.

As long as it is placed in a cool environment, it should not run into any thermal shutdown issues, and really can run for quite a long time at lower volumes and do a great job for years and years.

The price isn't bad on these units, but it isn't rock bottom no budget levels, it's just solid quality that will last for years without headaches.

Yes, I agree that 70 volt systems are a great way to go, but I've also seen commercial guys go to 70 volt by default instead of considering some alternatives which work very well for the money, and this seems to be one of those cases where 4/8 ohms will do just fine.

Just make sure you get a decent amp as suggested and make sure it is in a cool location.

 

[GeorgePasca]

@KEW

Had a bit of confusion myself with finding the speaker's specs online. They are Control ONE not Control 1 pro. They are on the jbl site not the jblpro site, they are under home audio/bookshelf speakers.

Ty all for your advice, it's been helpfull.
George.

 

[highfigh]

I tested the 140W of the amp into all 4 speakers and made the windows shake from the bass (no bass boost), at full power it was at the limit of distorting, but it wasn't there yet HiFi amp are as reliable as PA amp imo and I saw tones of these amps use for coffee shops going at least 18/24h a day, I also have a friend that can repair it if it goes (with quality beta-matched power transistors and such).

There are 5 rooms, with large doors openings (2/3 m; the doors are taken out).
The main two rooms are 6/5.6/3.8 m
The other 3 smaller rooms are 6/>3/3.8 (haven't gotten around to measure them yet)

I am a sound engineer for live concerts, this project is a favor for my friends. I am posting on this forum because I'm not that familiar with installed sound systems.

I selected the 8ohm speakers because I knew that for now they couldn't afford a high quality 70/100V amp. And a second hand HiFi amp would do.

I bought 2.5 mm quality speaker cable so the damping factor and quality will be OK.

The reason I didn't want a distributed 70/100V system in the coffee shop was that these systems are for commercial use, meaning sound quality is not a factor they tend to value. The 70/100V is good with mids and flexible.

I don't want a PA amp in there either, because those are made for power, not clarity (aprox. 0.5 thd). And the >0.1 thd ones are way to expensive and overpowered.

A HiFI system is designed for fidelity at low levels up to mini-cinema loud levels, and that is what I'm looking for.

The acoustic of the rooms is pretty good and i will position the speakers above the door entries to minimize corner bass resonance and to get good coverage at the tables, as nobody will be sitting in the doorways.

I need the pub to sound as "homey" as possible.
Currently only the main 2 rooms will have speakers. The other 3 will get some sound from the main ones, as I will aim speakers at them while keeping a max coverage in the main rooms.

The next upgrade will put speakers in the other rooms. Prob 4-6 more speakers.

And the finally upgrade will double the number of the speakers (so i can make stereo pairs with the existing ones).

I don't really care about impedance as i can afford to go 4/8/16 ohm cause i don't need that much power, i can do the math, and the cable is not that expensive. I know the speakers will be a bit underpowered maybe but I wouldn't mind taking the risk.

It would be very nice to have every room on a separate channel, not necessarily with volume control but with an on/off switch.

Plus a HiFi amp has a more natural feeling for the person working with it then a PA amp or a commercial high power system. And most HIFi's have at least A/B outs.

So, back to my question: What HiFi amp would you recommend (both new or vintage) ?

Thanks, George.

I'm going to make comments based on your statement about being a live sound engineer-

You tested it at full power- I hope it was only for the sake of testing because there's no way a consumer amp will last if it's operated at that level and those speakers won't handle the clipping, either. Pro amps often have limiters built-in or installed ahead of their input and I would keep that in mind.

As someone who works with live sound, you should have noticed that these speakers are 4 Ohm, especially after we pointed it out to you in at least three posts. A HiFi amp wants 8 Ohms, not some arbitrary load caused by cobbling together more speakers than it can drive safely.

Re: speaker wire maintaining damping factor- these speakers are rated as 80-18KHz +/-3dB- damping factor isn't an issue. It is, however, if you drive a higher impedance load.

.5% vs .1% THD- you can hear the difference at ANY listening level? I seriously doubt that. Sure, it's 5x the THD but it's still not audible if the level is high and if the level is low, ambient sounds will mask it.

If you want it to "sound homey", why use commercial speakers? Why not choose smaller units made for in-home use? I can think of several that would work well.

You may not be worried about the impedance but, having worked with consumer grade audio for over 30 years, I can assure you that the amp cares. It's rare that a consumer amp will handle the heat caused by difficult loads/playing at high SPL. However, there's a wide range of models and brands in the consumer audio range, so....

That said, you still say that you want each room on a separate channel (or pair of channels, assuming you'll be operating in stereo). That requires a stereo amp for each room, not an amp with A/B speaker terminals. You seem to think that two pairs can be connected to an amp with no impedance issues. A/B speaker terminals are wired in parallel. If you connect two pairs of these speakers to an amp/s A/B terminals, you're presenting a 2 Ohm nominal load to the amp and it will either die an early death or the protection circuit will be a constant headache.

Whatever the amp, if you connect 8 speakers to it, you need to divide the total power by the number of speakers, so a 100W/ch amp will provide 25W/speaker/channel AT MAX OUTPUT. If you want to maintain a proper load for the amp(s), you'll need to determine the average operating level before selecting an amplifier, the same way you would for a live gig so you can use the speakers' sensitivity and the general acoustical properties of the rooms to estimate the SPL at most listening distances. Only then, will you be able to know that 1W will produce X dB at Y distance. One way to maintain the impedance is by using a speaker selector like the Niles/Jamo/etc SS-6 (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-sKyPJzLl1wl/p_190SS6/Niles-SS-6.html) If you want to set the level for each pair, the SSVC6 would be the one to use. These use autoformers, not resistors.

Homey "feel" for an amp should mean nothing because an application like this doesn't want a consumer amp unless it's a higher-end model. If I had been asked to design this system, I would look for a good preamp that will handle the number of sources and the required switching functions, paired with at least one decent commercial but not excessive power amp. The preamp is what the operators will be touching and "feeling", not the amp. The amp could be located remotely, as they are on a large PA (FOH amps at the stage/mixer somewhere in the seating area). Crown's new models are high-efficiency, generate less heat, have built-in limiter/compression/crossover and the retail price is very reasonable. It also has an ethernet port for on-site or remote setup/diagnosis. DBX has similar amps and theirs were available back in '05, so you may be able to find something on the used market. If you want a warranty, buy new- the Crown xti 1000 sells for $499 and you should be able to find something like it where you are- they operate with 120VAC-240VAC.