Best 5.1 system for my apartment

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fredk

Audioholic General
Axiom makes excellent speakers and the M3 is well regarded.

Is it possible to go with 3 matching bookshelves across the front in your setup? That would be the ideal setup and would give you better sound than using a horizontal center.
 
S

samhfoley

Audioholic
what do you mean?

another bookshelf behind the TV, there's really not enough room for that we're already 5 ft from the TV sitting on the couch. Pushing the TV further towards us isn't really an option. The bookshelves sit right at ear level, one on either side of the TV.
 
S

samhfoley

Audioholic
this list has both increased and become more complicated!

This list is getting longer and more complicated.

My choices now are

1) The EMP EF30 bookshelf/center channel speakers for 510 + a VTF-1 Subwoofer for $404 for a grand total of $914 or 809 with the
STF-1 Subwoofer which would leave roughly 200 for rear satellites.

2) The Ascend (2) CBM-170 SE and a CMT-340 SE center for 688 + the STF-1 Subwoofer for 299 for a grand total of 987.00
or I could go with the VTF-1 sub for a total of 1092.

3) Axiom (2) Millennia M3 Bookshelves and a VP150 Center for 800 bucks delivered to my door in Japan (althought the VP150 says it is designed for med. to lg rooms, maybe better off w/ the VP100? so roughly 630 dollars delivered.

4) the KEF 3000 system for 1000 bucks. My 1st thoughts on seeing the KEFs, honestly, is that I don't like their appearance....and they want 2100 bucks for that system here in Japan.

5) EMP HTP-551T 5.1 Speaker System for 629...discounted 1300 bucks w/free shipping + those towers are high enough to be out of the reach of my daughter....

**The comment about the EMP system didn't make me feel too comfortable with that choice, although they look great in the pictures. I've never heard them...
 
Patrick_Wolf

Patrick_Wolf

Audioholic
I've spent about 2 weeks now trying to find the best 5.1 for my apartment too!

It's truly maddening...


Energy's CB-10s and 5s are looking pretty good to me. Dunno what they sound like, but considering what I'm upgrading from I'm sure almost anything would amaze me.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
I was thinking of underneath or above the display for the 3rd bookshelf; the same placement as a horizontal center.

How soon are you coming to North America and how much is return shipping on the Axiom system? Maybe you can evaluate them before you come here and, if you don't like them, return them before your visit.

My other thought is that any of these systems is probably very good.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I get your frustration, samhfoley!

The positive way to look at it is that I can honestly say all of the systems that have been recommended are high quality, great sounding speakers!

This isn't a case where you may pick one, only to find that it's awful. This is a case where you could pick any of them and it will sound good!

I'm a little bit puzzled by the "some people don't like the EMP speakers" comment as well. I'm sure that statement is true - after all, I have seen comments from people who do not like Axiom speakers and from people who do not like Ascend speakers, or KEF speakers, or ANY speaker, for that matter.

The thing is, what's most important is to know WHY someone didn't like a particular speaker - and that usually has more to do with the interaction of the speakers with the room and listening environment.

For example, I would hesitate to recommend Axiom speaker to you, in particular. Why? Because they have no high frequency roll-off what-so-ever. It is very likely that they would sound harsh in your room. Does that make them "bad" speakers? Not at all! In a larger, acoustically treated room, Axiom speakers can deliver some of the most accurate, detailed sound for very reasonable prices! But that doesn't make them the perfect choice for EVERY room. And in a room such as yours, you would likely join the small group of people who have complained about Axiom speakers sounding "harsh", "bright" and "sibilant".

Audio is a partnership between your room and the speakers. You can pick speakers that measure extremely well in an "ideal" room and then have them battle with your "less than ideal" room, OR you can understand the issues of your "less than ideal" room and then pick speakers that will work in harmony with those conditions.

So...I can understand some people not liking the EMP EF50 speakers. If they were to use them in a large room, the would sound inadequate in the mid-bass. If they were to use them in a non-reflective room, they may sound lacking in detail because of their high frequency roll-off. And if the listener is sitting far away from them, they may find the EF50 speakers lacking in imaging because at distance, their wide dispersion will lead to a more blended and less precise soundstage.

All valid complaints, but all due to room interaction and setup. In YOUR room, all of the EF50 speakers' characteristics end up being advantages rather than disadvantages. And the characteristics of other speakers end up being disadvantages, where in other rooms, they may be beneficial.

So that is WHY I recommend the EMP EF50 speakers. It is not that I think they are "the best" speakers in outright terms. It is because they have certain characteristics (wide dispersion, slight high frequency roll-off) that will work particularly well in your specific room.

The EMP EF30 speakers are similar - they are just physically larger is all. Fewer people complain about the EF30 speakers because they extend deeper into the bass frequencies and they have less of a high frequency roll-off. That will likely sound better to more people in more rooms. But in your particular situation, the EF50 speakers have advantages - the ones I've mentioned and also physically smaller size.

So I would really welcome some further explanation if others feel that there is a much better choice, but just saying, "these are better" or "these are worse" is not really helpful because without reasons, it is just confusing!

FINAL THOUGHT: regardless of which speakers you pick - please remember to get an Auralex SubDude to put beneath your subwoofer! ;)
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
Out of curiosity, how did we determine that this is a highly reflective room. The sliding doors behind the couch are, but we don't know much about furnishings in the rest of the room.

FWIW those sliding dooors will cause issues regardless of which speaker you choose. There is a simple solution if those reflections bother you: heavy curtains you can draw when you watch movies.

I don't entirely agree with FirstReflections assesment of the M3's in your room. I run M80s in a highly reflective room and do not find my speakers harsh at all. Female voices, violin and most instruments are just fine. High frequency pipe organ gets rather bright.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
Interesting. If you look at the anechoic measurements of the Ascend CMB 170 there is no roll-off on the high end here either, yet I have never seen them described as bright. Actually, these things meaure impressively flat!
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
This list is getting longer and more complicated.

My choices now are

1) The EMP EF30 bookshelf/center channel speakers for 510 + a VTF-1 Subwoofer for $404 for a grand total of $914 or 809 with the
STF-1 Subwoofer which would leave roughly 200 for rear satellites.

2) The Ascend (2) CBM-170 SE and a CMT-340 SE center for 688 + the STF-1 Subwoofer for 299 for a grand total of 987.00
or I could go with the VTF-1 sub for a total of 1092.

3) Axiom (2) Millennia M3 Bookshelves and a VP150 Center for 800 bucks delivered to my door in Japan (althought the VP150 says it is designed for med. to lg rooms, maybe better off w/ the VP100? so roughly 630 dollars delivered.

4) the KEF 3000 system for 1000 bucks. My 1st thoughts on seeing the KEFs, honestly, is that I don't like their appearance....and they want 2100 bucks for that system here in Japan.

5) EMP HTP-551T 5.1 Speaker System for 629...discounted 1300 bucks w/free shipping + those towers are high enough to be out of the reach of my daughter....

**The comment about the EMP system didn't make me feel too comfortable with that choice, although they look great in the pictures. I've never heard them...
I would stay away from towers in your space and go with a nicer bookshelf. Personally, I think the Ascends would be a great pick with an HSU sub. Even then that system will probably be more than you need :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I think one of the issues here, sam, is that folks are forgetting that you plan to bring these speakers back with you on a passenger plane! I'd love to recommend Emotiva's ERM-1 speakers to you, but bringing them back on a plane could prove troublesome.

It's east to forget the true physical size of these various speakers. None of them are large, but most of the ones recommended are substantial. Read their physical size specs very carefully because I think people are forgetting your need to be able to pack these and bring them with you on a plane.

And just a clarification of my own recommendation, I recommend the EMP HTP-551 package, not the HTP-551T package. The T package has the front towers, but again, this could be troublesome for air travel. The HTP-551 package consists of two pairs of the EF50 compact bookshelf speakers for fronts and surrounds. No EF50T towers ;)
 
Z

zipia.salute1

Audiophyte
I've heard about people using 5.1 Logitech computer speakers in their home theater. I'm guessing it would work well in small rooms.
 
S

samhfoley

Audioholic
yes the plane

Yeah we'll have (5) 23 kg bags allotted to us. I am taking 3 of those for speakers and might possibly buy another 20kg bag for 200 bucks. That should be enough to get a decent sized system back to Japan...I hope!
 
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samhfoley

Audioholic
room picture?

CAn I upload a photo of the room to the forum? If so I'll do so when I get home. Let me know.
 
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samhfoley

Audioholic
The room layout and my ideas

Here is my living room, shot from the kitchen. You can see the open wall facing the kitchen as well as the sliding door behind the sofa. The bookcases I am going to use are on the right side of the image just inside the door frame. I placed stars on where I was thinking of placing the center channel speaker and the rear surrounds (if I get any) The TV would be moved a bit to the left and 1 book case would be placed on either side of it. Still not sure where I'd park the sub yet...perhaps in the far corner under the rear surround. Anyways, that's the room, sorry for the poor quality shot, but 100KB is a pretty small file size!
 

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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Great that you uploaded that photo!

Your room is much as I pictured it from your previous description. As I suspected, you have a very close seating distance and you are basically surrounded by normal, flat walls. All of the important characteristics of which I have already spoken very much apply IMO.

I keep feeling almost apologetic for my steadfast recommendation of the EMP HTP-551 package. I've wracked my brain trying to come up with some other better alternative, but I simply cannot think of one. The exact characteristics of the EF50 and EF50C speakers are basically tailor made for your type of small room setup.

To be blunt, seeing the photo of your room only adds more reasons for me to continue to strongly favor the EMP HTP-551 speakers. For one, it would be best if you could place the centre speaker on the same shelf as the TV itself. That means that it cannot be too deep and it must also be short so that it does not obscure any of the bottom of your TV's screen. The EF50C is 6.5" deep and 5" tall which is about as small as you can make a speaker before you go into "micro" speaker territory where the midrange drivers are so small that the cross-over rises to about 180Hz and really makes getting a blend with the subwoofer difficult!

And yet another advantage of the EF50 speakers is that they are a sealed design with no ports on the back. That's going to make them more suitable for being wall mounted as surround speakers and will also help their sound if you decide to put the front Left/Right speakers inside of the bookcases rather than on the very top of them.

To be perfectly clear, your room is not ideal. Compromises have to be made and it isn't reasonable to expect "highest of the high end" sound quality when recognizing your room restrictions. Many people subscribe to the idea of buying the most technically "correct" speakers - regardless of the room - and then basically either attempting to "fix" the room and setup or else just saying, "well...it's not the speakers' fault, so end result performance be damned!"

I do not subscribe to that attitude. I see the room and the speakers as being equal partners and to me, it makes sense to recognize what the room and placement are going to do to the sound and then picking speakers that will work in harmony with those restrictions to give you an end result that is more than the sum of its parts.

For your room and setup, most speakers are simply physically too large. The centre speaker in particular needs to be able to fit on your TV stand and not block the bottom of the image nor hang way out over the edge due to being too deep! The surround speakers are best wall mounted (they should be mounted to the wall about 2-3 feet above your seated height) and with such close proximity to the wall, it would be best to use a sealed speaker design. Because you are sitting so close to the front speakers, they need to have very wide dispersion so that they can create a seemless front soundstage. And because your room is 3 flat reflective walls, it will help if the speakers have a slight high frequency roll-off so that they do not sound harsh or fatiguing. Finally, any such speakers will need the help of a subwoofer. That subwoofer needs to be an appropriate size for your room and it needs to be able to blend well with the 5 speakers.

Those are the conditions regardless of what speakers your buy. But it just so happens that the EMP HTP-551 package precisely matches all of your needs!

Almost all of the other speakers that have been recommended are larger than you may think. A 7" height is about the smallest of the other contenders and that is almost certain to block a tiny bit of the bottom of your TV screen. Several of them are ported - which typically means they need about a 2 foot distance from the wall to sound their best.

I would recommend the Emotiva ERM-1 speakers to you, but they are too large. I might also recommend the Energy RC-Mini and RC-Mini-Centre speakers, but they are ported.

I guess the simplest way I can put it is that if it were my money and I were in your room, these EMP HTP-551 speakers are what I would buy and I would certainly buy an Auralex SubDude while I was at it :)
 
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samhfoley

Audioholic
narrowed the list of receivers...

Yamaha DSP-AX863 $687.00
Onkyo TX-SA507 $475.00
DENON AVC-1610 $500.00

Can/should I buy a separate sub with that EMP set-up? Would that be overkill to get the HSU VTF-1 Subwoofer paired with that EMP set-up?? I should clarify, I want the HSU sub instead of the one offered by EMP...possible? Needed? Overkill??
 
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samhfoley

Audioholic
The Emotiva Option...

Emotiva ERM-1 says 21lbs boxed x 2 = 42lbs, that's 1 bag on the plane. 2 more to go. ERM-6.3 LCR Monitor = 43lbs boxed, that's 2 bags on the plane, but we're already at 1000 dollars by this point, unless I just buy 3 ERM-1s for 600 and the HSU sub for 404 for a grand total of 1004 dollars...

My other thought is that I am not going to be in this apartment more than 2 more years. We're looking at houses now and I don't want to limit my range just because of where I am right now. SO many variables, it's making my head spin! Good thing I have until July to sort this out!
 
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fredk

Audioholic General
I am not going to be in this apartment more than 2 more years.
I guess it depends what kind of person you are. I tend to spend up front and keep stuff for a long time.
 
A

ack_bak

Audioholic
narrowed the list of receivers...

Yamaha DSP-AX863 $687.00
Onkyo TX-SA507 $475.00
DENON AVC-1610 $500.00

Can/should I buy a separate sub with that EMP set-up? Would that be overkill to get the HSU VTF-1 Subwoofer paired with that EMP set-up?? I should clarify, I want the HSU sub instead of the one offered by EMP...possible? Needed? Overkill??
Just make sure you buy an HDMI switching (ie both audio and video over HDMI) receiver for future upgrades. I believe you need to step up the 6,7,8, etc Onkyo lineup to get HDMI switching. Not sure about those other receivers.
 

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