Benefits to Bi Amping or Bi Wiring

[gene]

The Denon 5805 according to the specs pushes 170 x 10 channels simutansly.
It has 6 seperate power supplies and consumes 13amps. It weights 92lbs
So it might be possible.

My pioneer states 110 x 7. Though there was a test by a magazine that got results of 100 x7 which sounds accurate based off max power consumption of 600watts. It weighs 45lbs.

So IMO I think the Denon is able to do what it said.

I don't know how to make the math any simpler so let me try again:

Standard Wall Outlet is: 120V, 15A
UL Compliance Receptacle found on most consumer gear: 15A
MAX Power Capability: 120 x 15 = 1,800 watts
Typical Efficiency of Linear Amp (not factoring in core losses, or PF): 40%
MAX POWER Delivery from Amp/Receiver: 1800x(0.4) = 720 watts
Continuous Max Power into 7 Channels: 720 / 7 = 103wpc
Continuous Max Power into 10 Channels: 720 / 10 = 72wpc

The Magazines are doing an instantaneous sine wave sweep into all channels at clipping while also holding the LINE Voltage up with a Variac to derive their ratings. THIS IS NOT A CONTINUOUS UNCLIPPED POWER TEST

Hey, we'll be the first to admit that the math is difficult for some. But when we explain that it's not possible, what we mean is that it cannot be accomplished. What I mean by that is that it won't happen. That it cannot be done without a 35amp circuit and that it simply isn't going to happen, especially since the receptacle is limited to 15A to prevent arching.

In addition, it won't drive 170wpc all channels driven NOR does the manufacturer state it will, NOR is it a Valid Test.

And just in case some of you still aren't certain, feel free to read this article:

The All Channels Driven Test Fallacy

Also check out the PERMANENT Sticky Thread where I discuss this topic in more detail:

ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN TEST FORUM CRISIS THREAD

 

[Audioholics]

Now that's what I call a dead parrot.

 

[mulester7]

Typical Efficiency of Linear Amp (not factoring in core losses, or PF): 40%

.....Gene, this is the one I don't understand....amplifiers are only 40% efficient?.....

 

[gmichael]

Now that's what I call a dead parrot.

ERRR....????

 

[gene]

Gene, this is the one I don't understand....amplifiers are only 40% efficient?.....

Theoretically Class A/B amps can be around 50% efficienct but this is usually never the case. Real world efficiencies range between 35-45% so I used a figure in the middle. The more current you pull from these amps (IE. running them in 4 ohms instead of 8, the more inefficient they become).

Class G is a variant of Class AB as it rail switches depending on power demands and typically run a bit higher in efficiency like 50-70%. This is one of the reasons why an amp like the Emotiva MPS-1 runs so cool.

Switching amps can see between 85-95% efficiency, but if they aren't designed right (most aren't) then you just sacrificed fidelity for more power efficiency.

 

[gene]

.how many watts could be counted on from each breaker to arrive at the 120 wall outlets going on to a heavy-duty power strip to be used by amplifiers?.....

When doing power load estimates for home wiring, you DON"T assume all outlets are operating at full capacity just like you don't assume all channels will be driven at full capacity on a multichannel amplifier. My advice is to run a dedicated line or 2 to your home theater equipment, especially your projector (is possible) and feed everything into UL approved power conditioner/voltage stabalizers like ones from APC for example.

 

[mulester7]

Theoretically Class A/B amps can be around 50% efficienct but this is usually never the case. Real world efficiencies range between 35-45% so I used a figure in the middle. The more current you pull from these amps (IE. running them in 4 ohms instead of 8, the more inefficient they become).

Class G is a variant of Class AB as it rail switches depending on power demands and typically run a bit higher in efficiency like 50-70%. This is one of the reasons why an amp like the Emotiva MPS-1 runs so cool.

Switching amps can see between 85-95% efficiency, but if they aren't designed right (most aren't) then you just sacrificed fidelity for more power efficiency.

....interesting, thanks.....Gene, can you take a stab at how many watts would be available from a 40 amp breaker to the wall outlets in my downstairs?....nothing else, not even a light bulb, would be asking watts from the 40 amp breaker....only "one" heavy-duty power strip, fed by let's say, a 20 foot extension cord about an inch diameter, industrial-grade.....

 

[mulester7]

.....Gene, leave the power strip out of it....just the industrial extension cord straight to the plug of an amp.....

 

[ironlung]

Why not 220v AC for the flagship models? Any modifications available? If your dropping a few 110v 20A lines to the HT why not have 220 put in? What if 103 x 7 is not enough oomph for a given task and separates are not an option? BTW are there any 220v CE devices?

 

[mulester7]

Why not 220v AC for the flagship models? Any modifications available? If you're dropping a few 110v 20A lines to the HT why not have 220 put in? What if 103 x 7 is not enough oomph for a given task and separates are not an option? BTW are there any 220v CE devices?

.....brilliant thinking and suggestion, Ironlung......

 

[gene]

Why not 220v AC for the flagship models? Any modifications available? If your dropping a few 110v 20A lines to the HT why not have 220 put in? What if 103 x 7 is not enough oomph for a given task and separates are not an option? BTW are there any 220v CE devices?

Um No. Unless the amp itself has a power supply big enough to sink that much power, its not gonna work. Why do you feel you need that much power and why do you think all channels simultaneously will need it?

A single 90dB SPL @ 1 watt/meter speaker playing 10 watts will generate 100dB SPL at 1 meter. Subtract about 3dB for every doubling of distance NOT 6 like this calculator shows b/c of room reflections which this calculator DOESN'T factor in.

Thus according to this calculator, 7 speakers playing 10 watts simultaneously will yield over 95dB SPL 15 feet away!

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

In reality and in a real room this would be over 100dB!

Real power is in the bass NOT the rest of the audio spectrum. What is more important for the speakers is an amp that has good headroom so it doesn't clip on transients, NOT an amp that can deliver a gazillion watts all channels driven!

 

[braminator]

So IMO I think the Denon is able to do what it said.

I did not mean to affend you Gene. I meant to say unable

 

[gene]

All;

I am currently reviewing a 5CH linear Class G amp and pulled some efficiency #'s for your enjoyment. Class G amps are typically more efficient than a/b.

These tests were conducted using regulation from the APC S15. Amps were testing to no more than 0.1% THD + N. Test tone was a 1kHz sine wave. Broad band fullrange signals would likely cause even lower efficiencies.

Idle APC: 99 watts
Idle Amp + APC: 162watts
Idle Amp: 63 watts

Power Consumption (1CH, 8 ohms): 324 – 99 = 225watts
Power Delivered (1CH, 8 ohms): 86watts
Eff: (86/225)*100 = 38%

Power Consumption (2CH, 8 ohms):459 – 99 = 360watts
Power Delivered (2CH, 8 ohms): 86wpc x 2 = 172watts
Eff: (172/362)*100 = 47%

Power Consumption (2CH, 4 ohms): 711 – 99 = 612watts
Power Delivered (2CH, 4 ohms): 165wpc x 2 = 330watts
Eff: (330/612)*100 = 54%

These #'s would be lower if all channels were driven as the power supply core saturates and becomes less efficient and increased thermal losses are inccured.

 

[gene]

I did not mean to affend you Gene. I meant to say unable

I was not "offended" but understood.

 

[mulester7]

All;

I am currently reviewing a 5CH linear Class G amp and pulled some efficiency #'s for your enjoyment. Class G amps are typically more efficient than a/b.

These tests were conducted using regulation from the APC S15. Amps were testing to no more than 0.1% THD + N. Test tone was a 1kHz sine wave. Broad band fullrange signals would likely cause even lower efficiencies.

Idle APC: 99 watts
Idle Amp + APC: 162watts
Idle Amp: 63 watts

Power Consumption (1CH, 8 ohms): 324 – 99 = 225watts
Power Delivered (1CH, 8 ohms): 86watts
Eff: (86/225)*100 = 38%

Power Consumption (2CH, 8 ohms):459 – 99 = 360watts
Power Delivered (2CH, 8 ohms): 86wpc x 2 = 172watts
Eff: (172/362)*100 = 47%

Power Consumption (2CH, 4 ohms): 711 – 99 = 612watts
Power Delivered (2CH, 4 ohms): 165wpc x 2 = 330watts
Eff: (330/612)*100 = 54%

These #'s would be lower if all channels were driven as the power supply core saturates and becomes less efficient and increased thermal losses are inccured.

.....well, Guys, I guess we might as well go ahead and make boat anchors out of our slave amps, huh?.....Gene, what about the importance of transformers and capacitors?....is any watt no different from any other watt?.....please tell us about that $30,000 slave amp that powers those Eiffel Tower-looking front mains of yours.....I would really like to hear some comments about that animal.....

 

[gene]

.....well, Guys, I guess we might as well go ahead and make boat anchors out of our slave amps, huh?.....Gene, what about the importance of transformers and capacitors?....is any watt no different from any other watt?.....please tell us about that $30,000 slave amp that powers those Eiffel Tower-looking front mains of yours.....I would really like to hear some comments about that animal.....

No a good amp is still a necessity. We don't listen to continuous test tones and its important to realize that. An amp should have plenty of headroom to hit peaks undistorted while at the same time have a low enough output impedance to minimize frequency response variations when driving a reactive loadspeaker load. The bigger the xformer (assuming comparing similar core materials), the more power it can source to the amp. Caps of course are the reservoirs to ensure a stable voltage is supplied to the amps at all times.

I haven't formerly picked the amps that will power my speakers since I am in the process of testing many. I am also waiting on the new Axiom amp b/c I believe its gonna be an animal worthy of my Eiffel Towers

 

[ironlung]

Gene your taking me to serious I'm not an "all channels driven tone listener" guy.

Although in a hobby where overkill makes people happy I'm suprised there is not a 220v flagship for the "audiophile" with cash burning a hole in his pocket.

 

[PENG]

Gene your taking me to serious I'm not an "all channels driven tone listener" guy.

Although in a hobby where overkill makes people happy I'm suprised there is not a 220v flagship for the "audiophile" with cash burning a hole in his pocket.

If you take a look of the 220V European versions, they typically give you the same power rating as their 120V North American versions. I could be wrong but perhaps one of the reason is that manufacturers want to keep the size and weight of both 220V and 120V versions more or less the same. A transformer that has it's primary winding rated for the same current, but almost double the voltage, (220V instead of 120V) is going to be much bigger and heavier. If you have seen some 600V/120V transformers you will know what I am talking about.

 

[ironlung]

As Gene said lets "Do the math". I looked in my curciut breaker and I have a 100 amp breaker on my 220v stove.

Wall Outlet is: 220V, 100A
UL Compliance Receptacle found on most consumer gear: 15A N/A in this hypothesis
MAX Power Capability: 220 x 100 = 22,000 watts
Typical Efficiency of Linear Amp (not factoring in core losses, or PF): 40%
MAX POWER Delivery from Amp/Receiver: 22,000x(0.4) = 8800 watts
Continuous Max Power into 7 Channels: 8800 / 7 = 1257wpc
Continuous Max Power into 10 Channels: 8800 / 10 = 880wpc

 

[PENG]

As Gene said lets "Do the math". I looked in my curciut breaker and I have a 100 amp breaker on my 220v stove.

Wall Outlet is: 220V, 100A
UL Compliance Receptacle found on most consumer gear: 15A N/A in this hypothesis
MAX Power Capability: 220 x 100 = 22,000 watts
Typical Efficiency of Linear Amp (not factoring in core losses, or PF): 40%
MAX POWER Delivery from Amp/Receiver: 22,000x(0.4) = 8800 watts
Continuous Max Power into 7 Channels: 8800 / 7 = 1257wpc
Continuous Max Power into 10 Channels: 8800 / 10 = 880wpc

220V, 100A breaker for your stove? That seems unusual for a typical residential range/stove. I thought 40 to 50A would be more appropriate.