BD analog outs question?

[ahblaza]

Hello All,
I have my Panny BD-85 connected to legacy receiver with 5.1 MCH analog outs. The player has 7.1 preouts but receiver for some strange reason only has 5.1 inputs, but has 7.1 preouts. In the player's MCH output menu it has two options: 7.1 and 5.1 with two channel downmixed. Which setting should I use considering the receiver has only 5.1 inputs, I have been using 7.1 output from player with no ill effects. Does it matter or should I switch it to 5.1 two channel down mix? Thanks guys.
Jeff

 

[jostenmeat]

5.1+2ch downmix. Then the rear channels with 7.1 DTS-MA or 7.1 PCM will be downmixed to your side surrounds. Yeah, it's probably subtle, but this is the proper setting.

 

[ahblaza]

5.1+2ch downmix. Then the rear channels with 7.1 DTS-MA or 7.1 PCM will be downmixed to your side surrounds. Yeah, it's probably subtle, but this is the proper setting.

Jost, so you're saying the 5.1+2ch downmix would be the appropriate setting? Just for the record I don't have rear or back surrounds, does this matter to the setting, I think as you do that 5.1+2ch downmix makes sense since I'm only using 5.1 channels. So to get 7.1 sound from the player I would have to have 7.1 inputs on receiver or get an HDMI capable one, and of course add back speakers? Thanks my friend for the reply, look forward to the next.
Jeff

 

[jostenmeat]

Yes, you have it all right, all of it. The 2ch downmix part means that the two rear channels are indeed downmixed to the sides.

Of all the valid possibilities you've listed, only HDMI will let you always use the rear speakers. If you got 7.1 analog inputs on a different legacy receiver, then you only get 7.1 when the disc is natively 7.1. With HDMI/digital inputs, you can use postprocessing/matrixing like PLIIX, etc, to derive rear channels from 5.1 discs.

 

[ahblaza]

Yes, you have it all right, all of it. The 2ch downmix part means that the two rear channels are indeed downmixed to the sides.

Of all the valid possibilities you've listed, only HDMI will let you always use the rear speakers. If you got 7.1 analog inputs on a different legacy receiver, then you only get 7.1 when the disc is natively 7.1. With HDMI/digital inputs, you can use postprocessing/matrixing like PLIIX, etc, to derive rear channels from 5.1 discs.

Jost, thanks a lot. I understand that the disc must have the 7.1 natively to use the analog outs, but can I get rear speakers and use the player's coaxial digital output with the PLIIX matrixing feature of my receiver to drive the rear channels from 5.1 discs, or is HDMI the only way? Thanks again as always for your informative replies.
Jeff

 

[jostenmeat]

You're welcome, ahblaza. You can derive rear channels with all of the digital inputs, whether HDMI, optical/coax. It's just that you can only obtain lossless mch tracks when using HDMI.

That said, when using S/PDIF you still* get an increase in bitrate with lossy tracks over DVD counterparts of the same exact movie title. IIRC, Dolby goes from 448 kbps to 640 kbps, and DTS nearly doubles up from 768 kbps to 1509 kbps. One of those numbers could be slightly off, but they all might be on the dot exact too. Again, none of these are lossless. (side note regarding DTS, there are a small handful of DVDs that actually pull off 1509 kbps, but they really are the very slight minority, many having being discontinued long ago as well).

 

[ahblaza]

You're welcome, ahblaza. You can derive rear channels with all of the digital inputs, whether HDMI, optical/coax. It's just that you can only obtain lossless mch tracks when using HDMI.

That said, when using S/PDIF you still* get an increase in bitrate with lossy tracks over DVD counterparts of the same exact movie title. IIRC, Dolby goes from 448 kbps to 640 kbps, and DTS nearly doubles up from 768 kbps to 1509 kbps. One of those numbers could be slightly off, but they all might be on the dot exact too. Again, none of these are lossless. (side note regarding DTS, there are a small handful of DVDs that actually pull off 1509 kbps, but they really are the very slight minority, many having being discontinued long ago as well).

Jost, I hear what you're saying, I have a PS3 Slim that I use for bitstreaming(BD) digital output to receiver and notice a marked improvement over conventional DVD using the same output, although I have heard some older DVD's with DTS with really good sound, but as you say they are few and far between. I think I'm getting Lossless with the MCH output of the Panny BD-85, it just does not show on receiver. Thanks my friend.
Jeff

 

[jostenmeat]

Jost, I hear what you're saying, I have a PS3 Slim that I use for bitstreaming(BD) digital output to receiver and notice a marked improvement over conventional DVD using the same output, although I have heard some older DVD's with DTS with really good sound, but as you say they are few and far between. I think I'm getting Lossless with the MCH output of the Panny BD-85, it just does not show on receiver. Thanks my friend.
Jeff

Yes, as long as it's all setup correctly in the BD85s menu, and that the correct codec is chosen on the bluray disc menu itself, then you are absolutely getting lossless mch.

The reason it won't show up as DTSMA or TrueHD is because there is no way for the receiver to know (not that it is even trying to know). The codecs have already been decoded into mch PCM, by the player.

 

[ahblaza]

Yes, as long as it's all setup correctly in the BD85s menu, and that the correct codec is chosen on the bluray disc menu itself, then you are absolutely getting lossless mch.

The reason it won't show up as DTSMA or TrueHD is because there is no way for the receiver to know (not that it is even trying to know). The codecs have already been decoded into mch PCM, by the player.

Jost, sorry for the ignorance, could you explain the correct codec chosen on the bluray disc menu itself? I believe that all is setup in MCH menu with the analog outs, and the receiver has no way of knowing this, I believe the MCH inputs on the receiver are just pass through if I'm not mistaken. So the player decodes the codecs onboard and outputs the PCM to MCH outputs correct? I can not get test tones with receiver in MCH mode but can adjust speaker and sub levels in that mode to correlate with my reference levels that I set using SPL meter, I'm just using the same reference levels and everything seems to be fine. Question: when using SPDIF or the coaxial output of the BD player I have it set to bitsream, is this correct or should it be PCM or does it even matter when using digital output? Sorry for all the questions jost, I'm getting a lot of info today from you and must say it has been all good. Thanks again
Jeff

 

[jostenmeat]

Jost, sorry for the ignorance, could you explain the correct codec chosen on the bluray disc menu itself?

Some (many) movies are not defaulted to the lossless track. Instead of hitting "play" directly, look for something called "Setup" (or perhaps "audio"). I am talking about what the TV is showing after you put in the bluray title. DTS-MA tracks, there is no need (won't go into why they can make it so convenient right now). It is with any bluray that touts mch PCM or TrueHD that you better check. Then choose.

I believe that all is setup in MCH menu with the analog outs, and the receiver has no way of knowing this, I believe the MCH inputs on the receiver are just pass through if I'm not mistaken.

So far as I know, that makes sense to me, but now we are getting past my Audioholic pay grade. That said, pass through is one of least favorite terms in AV, because it can be confusing. I don't think there is anything to worry about, and even if there was, there's nothing we can do about it.

So the player decodes the codecs onboard and outputs the PCM to MCH outputs correct?

Yes (but remember my first paragraph here).

I can not get test tones with receiver in MCH mode but can adjust speaker and sub levels in that mode to correlate with my reference levels that I set using SPL meter, I'm just using the same reference levels and everything seems to be fine.

I'm sorry, I don't quite exactly understand. Look into both the manual, and BD85 menus to look for the mch setup. Perhaps there are test tones that the player can evoke? Never played with any mch analog outs on any bluray player, ever, sorry I can't help more here.

Ok I just looked it up, I'm pretty sure your player can provide test tones for level.

Question: when using SPDIF or the coaxial output of the BD player I have it set to bitsream, is this correct or should it be PCM or does it even matter when using digital output? Sorry for all the questions jost, I'm getting a lot of info today from you and must say it has been all good. Thanks again
Jeff

PCM will work, but I would set all SPDIF to bitstream. At the least, you get to see the logos, at the most . . . I dunno . . .

oh, if your TV can do 24p, then you have to set that up as well in the player. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

 

[ahblaza]

Some (many) movies are not defaulted to the lossless track. Instead of hitting "play" directly, look for something called "Setup" (or perhaps "audio"). I am talking about what the TV is showing after you put in the bluray title. DTS-MA tracks, there is no need (won't go into why they can make it so convenient right now). It is with any bluray that touts mch PCM or TrueHD that you better check. Then choose.



So far as I know, that makes sense to me, but now we are getting past my Audioholic pay grade. That said, pass through is one of least favorite terms in AV, because it can be confusing. I don't think there is anything to worry about, and even if there was, there's nothing we can do about it.


Yes (but remember my first paragraph here).



I'm sorry, I don't quite exactly understand. Look into both the manual, and BD85 menus to look for the mch setup. Perhaps there are test tones that the player can evoke? Never played with any mch analog outs on any bluray player, ever, sorry I can't help more here.

Ok I just looked it up, I'm pretty sure your player can provide test tones for level.



PCM will work, but I would set all SPDIF to bitstream. At the least, you get to see the logos, at the most . . . I dunno . . .

oh, if your TV can do 24p, then you have to set that up as well in the player. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

Jost, OK I now understand the disc setup menu, as the player offering test tones, it does but the only option it has is to lower the dB level so I left all channels at 0dB, I could select speaker presence and size also and it recognizes the sub but skips over it in the menu when I try to select it, I called Panasonic and they said this was normal and not a problem. I thought I had to do all bass management in the player but not so, I was surprised my receiver allowed me to set levels for each speaker and sub in its menu. As far as S/PDIF I have output to bitstream and 24p off, my tv can not do 24fps. As far as the pass through with MCH inputs, TLS guy told me it is actually a pass through and was surprised I could adjust the speaker levels in my receiver, so was I. So all is well now and again thanks for all the help.
Jeff