Battle of the Amps.. Which one?

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Sheep,
What formula are you using to get the 1200 watts total so I can figure it out myself next time? Also, does using a 20 amp circuit change that rating at all? I know that most of the time I wouldn't be using all the power in each channel. So say I happen to be using the full 300 watts x three front channels, giving me 900 watts usage, that would still leave me with 300 watts for the surrounds, correct? Don't receivers put out like 35 watts RMS? Another question. The Sherbourn utilizes 2 power cords, so basically 2 x 15 amp plugs, or in my case, 2 x 20 amp plugs. Does this change the scenario, or am I being limited somewhere else? I have always been poor at understanding electricity. So I am hearing a lot of different opinions, which makes my decision harder. Thanks for all the replies.
Roly
Roly, the article link below should clear up most of your issues regarding power ratings in amplifiers.


http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/ACDTEST.php
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Amp Choice

If you absolutely, positively have to own a 7 channel amp you should also look at the Outlaw, the Gemstone and the Emotiva. Out of those three, I'd buy the Emotiva since it's really individual removable amp modules. The death of one module doesn't mean the death of the whole system (I found that out).

I personally have a B&K 7270 7-channel amp that I'm replacing. You might want to look at the same road "jeffsg4mac" and myself are going down. Buy seven individual Behringer A500 amps and bridge them for 500 wpc into 8 ohms. Seven amps shipped for $179 each or $1,253 total. And of course you could still run the amps in their original stereo mode for multi-zone fun.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17004&highlight=behringerboth
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Gene,
Holy Cow. I am not sure that article did anything but depress me. Now I think that I can't believe any of the ratings. It does impress me that the Sherbourn is the only company I have seen that employs dual power cords. I am a little confused about the power cords and wall ratings and equipment ratings. So if my amp has a 15A power cord, but I am using a 20A breaker, does that increase my risk of fire? Or if I use a 20A breaker and get a 20A rated cord, but my amp isn't rated for 20A, what happens? Also, say I use the Sherbourn 200 WPC with dual power cords, and use both cords on a 20A breaker, does that cause any problems? I would think that would get me closer to the power requirements to generate the amps potential of 200 wpc.

Roly
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
gene said:
Roly, the article link below should clear up most of your issues regarding power ratings in amplifiers.


http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/ACDTEST.php
This is the most comprehensive article I have seen anywhere on the subject relating to power ratings of amplifiers. Before anyone believing in things like, "watts are watts", "its current not power that counts", "ACD power ratings more important than individual channel's dynamic ratings" etc., should read this article first.

I don't know how much time Gene spent on this article but I, for one, really appreciate it.
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
I hope I didn't sound negative about Gene's article. It was very informative and I too appreciate his work on it. I just think the whole paradigm shift kind of left my head hurting. Feels like I am back to square one.
I wonder why more amp companies don't utilize dual power cords? It seems like an easy way to boost power. Anyway, thanks for the replies.
Roly
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
rolyasm said:
I hope I didn't sound negative about Gene's article. It was very informative and I too appreciate his work on it. I just think the whole paradigm shift kind of left my head hurting. Feels like I am back to square one.
I wonder why more amp companies don't utilize dual power cords? It seems like an easy way to boost power. Anyway, thanks for the replies.
Roly
Roly I think it boils down to practicality. The dual 15A power cord should get you about 232WX7 or close to 300WX7 cont., depend on the overall efficiency and power factor, but that is only if you can plug each one into a dedicated (i.e. no other loads are plugged in) 15A circuit/outlet that is fed by its own (not shared) 15A circuit breaker. If you plug them both into a dedicated 20A outlet you get only 155WX7 to may be close to 200WX7.

The problem is how many households have that kind of luxury. Most builders would wire each living/family room with several outlets according to the local building codes. So typically all of the outlets in each room are wired to one single 15A outlet. The bottom line is, as Gene explained before, you don't need 7X300W because very few, if any source material would demand the same rated power from all 7 channels at the same time.

Most amplifiers are good in terms of ACD rating but for receivers, IMHO it is better to have one that can do say, 1X150, 2X130, but only 7X70 (such as a Yamaha) than one that can do 7X85, but only 1X110 and 2X90 (such as a HK).
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Oh ya, I forget that not everyone has a dedicated HT. :rolleyes: It seems though, that companies selling 300 wpc amps would be selling to crazy nutjob enthusiasts who would have the ability for dual circuits. Crazy advertising I guess that keeps the market going. Here is an interesting article I found about the Sherwood Newcastle. It has a few paragraphs related to UL labels, NTRL and OSHA. Dated July/August 2006 by David Rich.
http://www.sherwoodamerica.com/pdf/A965_from_TSS_review.pdf
Maybe people are catching on.
Roly
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Oh ya, I forget that not everyone has a dedicated HT. It seems though, that companies selling 300 wpc amps would be selling to crazy nutjob enthusiasts who would have the ability for dual circuits. Crazy advertising I guess that keeps the market going. Here is an interesting article I found about the Sherwood Newcastle. It has a few paragraphs related to UL labels, NTRL and OSHA. Dated July/August 2006 by David Rich.
http://www.sherwoodamerica.com/pdf/A...TSS_review.pdf
Maybe people are catching on.
Roly
That is a good article with great references to UL and OSHA but the author is way off assuming a Linear A/B amp will deliver 70% efficiency #s for power. The best case scenario is more likely around 50-55%. Again, the power spec listed in that review is ACD for instantaneous NOT continuous power.

This is the most comprehensive article I have seen anywhere on the subject relating to power ratings of amplifiers. Before anyone believing in things like, "watts are watts", "its current not power that counts", "ACD power ratings more important than individual channel's dynamic ratings" etc., should read this article first.

I don't know how much time Gene spent on this article but I, for one, really appreciate it.
Thanks Peng for your compliments. It took me a couple of months to organize all of my thoughts, get feedback and peer reviews, etc to complete this article. Its sorta a primer to the new Amplifier Measurement Standard I am now working on. While my testing methodology will be much more labor intensive, I and many industry folks believe its a step in the right direction for testing multi channel amplifiers.

Gene,
Holy Cow. I am not sure that article did anything but depress me. Now I think that I can't believe any of the ratings. It does impress me that the Sherbourn is the only company I have seen that employs dual power cords. I am a little confused about the power cords and wall ratings and equipment ratings. So if my amp has a 15A power cord, but I am using a 20A breaker, does that increase my risk of fire? Or if I use a 20A breaker and get a 20A rated cord, but my amp isn't rated for 20A, what happens? Also, say I use the Sherbourn 200 WPC with dual power cords, and use both cords on a 20A breaker, does that cause any problems? I would think that would get me closer to the power requirements to generate the amps potential of 200 wpc.
If the amp is designed in accordance to UL, you will have little benefit trying to feed each power cord 20A. The amp should blow a fuse or turn off if you try to make it source this much current on a continuous basis.

Like my article states, you will never run your 7CH amp at full power with all channels driven unless you are running a continuous correlated test tone on all channels to measure power. Just for fun, I plugged in a 400wpc x 2 amplifier and 2 500 watt subwoofer amps into my APC S15 power conditioner. I cranked the volume levels up to over 100dB at my listening position 18 ft away from my speakers in a nearly 6000 cu ft room. The power meter was showing a continuous power consumption of only a few hundred watts. Despite the amps were pumping out hundreds of watts, they weren't doing so continuously because music doesn't operate that way.

Again, you want an amp that can deliver its power rating into at least 2 channels, but also have plenty of headroom to handle dynamic passages unclipped, while also having a stable enough power supply to drive low impedance loads (if your speakers dip below 6 ohms) and have a low enough output impedance to not cause frequency response variations when presented with a reactive load such as a speaker. Most importantly, it shouldn't be noisy, especially at low power levels where the amp functions most of the time.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Gene, I just wanna say you rock....zorz.

SheepStar
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Gene,

And I'll bet you told the wife that you had to turn it up that loud for scientific reasons.....:rolleyes:

"Honestly honey, I'm not jamming out. This is for science."
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Hey Gene,
Next time you come to RBH you should let me know. It would be cool to put a face to a name. I'll have you over for some pizza and you can critique my system, if I ever get it going. Thanks for the work you do.
Roly
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
Hey MajorLoser,
Aren't you going to run into the same issue we are having here with the single amp? You probably aren't running all 7 amps off a different circuit, so you will still be limited by the 15 amp input. It does sound like a cool idea with potential, and not very expensive. Also, if one amp blows, you just buy another. How are you hooking up all the power cords? Using a strip, or individual plugs, or power conditioner? Also, what is the THD, SNR, that sort of thing on the amps. Last thing. I have the Behringer 2500 for my subs, and it is very noisy. Are these amps that noisy?
Roly
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
rolyasm said:
Hey MajorLoser,
Aren't you going to run into the same issue we are having here with the single amp? You probably aren't running all 7 amps off a different circuit, so you will still be limited by the 15 amp input. It does sound like a cool idea with potential, and not very expensive. Also, if one amp blows, you just buy another. How are you hooking up all the power cords? Using a strip, or individual plugs, or power conditioner? Also, what is the THD, SNR, that sort of thing on the amps. Last thing. I have the Behringer 2500 for my subs, and it is very noisy. Are these amps that noisy?
Roly
No, I actually have what works out to 7- 20A 120V circuits for my theater. One for lighting, one for powered chairs, one for outlets in the room and the component closet has four which also supplies the projector outlet on the ceiling). Yeah, I know, overkill. Open my breaker panel and almost half the circuits are labeled "theater". :eek:

As far as noise, the A500's don't have fans like the 1500 and 2500. I'm more worried about extra heat. As it was I could cook meat on the B&K after a couple hours.

The replacement issue is why I suggested the Emotiva MPS-1. It has individual amp module that can be purchased separately. They even have 2-channel modules available. If you have to have a compact unit, it's the way to go. With the two-channel amps you can even have multi-zones :rolleyes:
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
And I'll bet you told the wife that you had to turn it up that loud for scientific reasons.....

"Honestly honey, I'm not jamming out. This is for science."
Yes that works but I also told her I need to play it this loud to break in all the woofers :)

Hey Gene,
Next time you come to RBH you should let me know. It would be cool to put a face to a name. I'll have you over for some pizza and you can critique my system, if I ever get it going. Thanks for the work you do.
Cool, though it may be a # of years before I head out that way again. I am really into Pesto sauce for Pizza lately. My wife makes a killer pie using Pesto as the sauce, fresh tomatoes, spinach, peppers, mushrooms and of course lots of mozzarella cheese. Mmmm Pizza. What were we talking about again? :confused:
 
Tom Andry

Tom Andry

Speaker of the House
gene said:
Just for fun, I plugged in a 400wpc x 2 amplifier and 2 500 watt subwoofer amps into my APC S15 power conditioner. I cranked the volume levels up to over 100dB at my listening position 18 ft away from my speakers in a nearly 6000 cu ft room.
If for any reason this doesn't sound like fun to you, we will have have to confiscate your Official Audioholics Membership Card :D
 
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