Bass Reflex Design Sonic Characteristics ABOVE the Port "Crossover" Point...?...

  • Thread starter Timothy A. Kogstrom
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Timothy A. Kogstrom

Audiophyte
To Whomever Desires to Weigh In:

"Hi, my name is Tim, and I am an audiophile..."... :D;) ...lol...

I am a "stereophile"/"2.2 sound system" listener, and 90%+ of my listening is to pure music, (as opposed to A/V listening), and of virtually all genres, 11th century forward.

My system currently is in part comprised of a pre-amp feeding a pair of "Audience Audio" "ClairAudient 1 + 1's...V3(?)...which are being driven by an "ATI" "AT500 Series" class D amp.), via balanced connections, the pre-amp also feeding a pair of "Rythmik Audio" "G-22" sub-woofers. A custom "Audient Audio" designed passive high pass filter between the amp and the 1 + 1's limits the monitor's duties to around 100 Hz. and above. I love the soundstage, imaging, relatively spacious and VERY clean sound of the 1 + 1's, however, (perhaps with the "ATI" amp.?), regardless of placement/angle adjustments I make, the monitors always sound a bit too bright...SO, I may be looking for a new pair of monitors...
THAT said...
I love my "Rythmik" sub-woofers(!), a dual-driver, bipolar design, as well as the relative "speed" and precision of the crossover-less, dual driver + dual P.R.'s 1 + 1's. HOWEVER, I believe that there may be a better match of monitors for my sub-woofers...

I DO like the spaciousness that a bipolar design generates, as well as the remarkably tight/"fast" response of sealed-box designs...(as well as the sound-stage and imaging that full-range or coaxial driver's generate...)...HOWEVER, many/most(?) of the coaxial/bipolar speakers I have seen are bass reflex cab. in design...(be they passive or active...), which, from that which I have read, generate some phase issues/distortions of one kind or another in their lower frequency region...

Questions:
1. IF a bass reflex design speaker is crossed-over ABOVE the the range where the port "takes over" the output range, would that speaker then behave like a sealed cabinet design speaker?

2. IF the above it true, how far above the "cross-over" frequency of the port should an active crossover be set...?...and is there a better crossover slope...(tentatively thinking a 24dB./Oct. Linkwitz-Riley design.)

3. Though I am not really a D.I.Y. designer/builder, would I be better served by creating my own monitors...???...

Thank You in advance for any and all input/suggestions/advice you may offer!

Sincerely,
T.A.K.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
To Whomever Desires to Weigh In:

"Hi, my name is Tim, and I am an audiophile..."... :D;) ...lol...

I am a "stereophile"/"2.2 sound system" listener, and 90%+ of my listening is to pure music, (as opposed to A/V listening), and of virtually all genres, 11th century forward.

My system currently is in part comprised of a pre-amp feeding a pair of "Audience Audio" "ClairAudient 1 + 1's...V3(?)...which are being driven by an "ATI" "AT500 Series" class D amp.), via balanced connections, the pre-amp also feeding a pair of "Rythmik Audio" "G-22" sub-woofers. A custom "Audient Audio" designed passive high pass filter between the amp and the 1 + 1's limits the monitor's duties to around 100 Hz. and above. I love the soundstage, imaging, relatively spacious and VERY clean sound of the 1 + 1's, however, (perhaps with the "ATI" amp.?), regardless of placement/angle adjustments I make, the monitors always sound a bit too bright...SO, I may be looking for a new pair of monitors...
THAT said...
I love my "Rythmik" sub-woofers(!), a dual-driver, bipolar design, as well as the relative "speed" and precision of the crossover-less, dual driver + dual P.R.'s 1 + 1's. HOWEVER, I believe that there may be a better match of monitors for my sub-woofers...

I DO like the spaciousness that a bipolar design generates, as well as the remarkably tight/"fast" response of sealed-box designs...(as well as the sound-stage and imaging that full-range or coaxial driver's generate...)...HOWEVER, many/most(?) of the coaxial/bipolar speakers I have seen are bass reflex cab. in design...(be they passive or active...), which, from that which I have read, generate some phase issues/distortions of one kind or another in their lower frequency region...

Questions:
1. IF a bass reflex design speaker is crossed-over ABOVE the the range where the port "takes over" the output range, would that speaker then behave like a sealed cabinet design speaker?

2. IF the above it true, how far above the "cross-over" frequency of the port should an active crossover be set...?...and is there a better crossover slope...(tentatively thinking a 24dB./Oct. Linkwitz-Riley design.)

3. Though I am not really a D.I.Y. designer/builder, would I be better served by creating my own monitors...???...

Thank You in advance for any and all input/suggestions/advice you may offer!

Sincerely,
T.A.K.
Answer to question 1: A ported speaker driver is always operating as a bass reflex speaker, no matter the set low-pass crossover frequency.

Answer to question 2: An active crossover is a powered electronic device, as opposed to a passive crossover which we usually find in most speaker systems. The active crossover requires several power amps, each one driving the frequency range assigned to it.

In answer to your third question, IMO you don't have an adequate knowledge of loudspeaker functioning or enclosure building to start designing your own. However, you could try building your own speakers by purchasing a full kit from outfits such as Parts-Express, Meniscus or Madisound.
 
Last edited:
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I am a "stereophile"/"2.2 sound system" listener, and 90%+ of my listening is to pure music, (as opposed to A/V listening), and of virtually all genres, 11th century forward.
First of all, welcome to AudioHolics … whether you're an audiophile or an audioholic ;). Before I say anything further, I've never heard of your speakers before, much less actually listened to them. So keep that in mind.

First, a few questions: Are these speakers new? Or, have you had them a while? Because they are bi-polar monitors, their location in your room is quite important. How far away from the wall behind them do you have them? Are they out into the room a good distance, or are they close to the wall behind them? Your comments about their spacious sound suggest you've done that.
My system currently is in part comprised of a pre-amp feeding a pair of "Audience Audio" "ClairAudient 1 + 1's...V3(?)...which are being driven by an "ATI" "AT500 Series" class D amp.), via balanced connections, the pre-amp also feeding a pair of "Rythmik Audio" "G-22" sub-woofers. A custom "Audient Audio" designed passive high pass filter between the amp and the 1 + 1's limits the monitor's duties to around 100 Hz. and above. I love the soundstage, imaging, relatively spacious and VERY clean sound of the 1 + 1's, however, (perhaps with the "ATI" amp.?), regardless of placement/angle adjustments I make, the monitors always sound a bit too bright...SO, I may be looking for a new pair of monitors...
I looked online for a review of these speakers that includes decent measurements. I did find a review in Stereophile of The One speaker, not the 1+1. It may be good enough to tell us something about how full-range their 3" driver is, even if it isn't the bi-polar version with 2 drivers. I don't think it's too much to guess that The One and the 1+1 speakers share the same drivers and have similar passive radiator cabinet tuning.
I DO like the spaciousness that a bipolar design generates, as well as the remarkably tight/"fast" response of sealed-box designs...(as well as the sound-stage and imaging that full-range or coaxial driver's generate...)...HOWEVER, many/most(?) of the coaxial/bipolar speakers I have seen are bass reflex cab. in design...(be they passive or active...), which, from that which I have read, generate some phase issues/distortions of one kind or another in their lower frequency region.
The 1+1 speaker's passive radiators work essentially the same as a ported bass reflex cabinet. They are not a sealed box design. However, you may be right that there is something not quite right with their bass response that could lead to your difficulty in blending them to your subs. John Atkinson (the Stereophile measurements guy) had this to say:
The saddle just above 40Hz in the impedance-magnitude trace suggests that the tuning frequency of the passive radiator lies close to that frequency. The red trace in fig.3 shows the radiator's output measured in the nearfield; the output peaks a little lower in frequency than suggested by fig.1, at around 35Hz, and the corresponding notch in the drive-unit's output lies at 38Hz. This is a low tuning frequency for such a small speaker and correlates with BJR's [the reviewer] finding the speaker's bass surprisingly extended. Still, the danger of such a design is that when the speaker is used in free space, its bass might sound a little disconnected from the lower midrange. It's fair to note that BJR didn't note hearing any such disconnect.
Please note that John Atkinson's loudspeaker measurements are good, but he often understates things in an effort to avoid annoying a potential advertiser. I always find myself wishing I had a lawyer to help interpret his language. But I do think he's agreeing with your observation about the 1+1's bass response.

Here is Figure 3 from the review. The red trace is the response of the passive radiator and the blue trace is the bass from the 3" driver. The black trace is the overall response.
1684447108087.png

To me, the most obvious flaw I see is the elevated & ragged treble response, especially above 1,000 Hz. That 3" driver may be a good mid-range driver, but it isn't a good tweeter. That may very well be the overall brightness that you hear. I can't predict exactly how that might vary in a bi-polar design using two of those drivers, but I think the brightness will still be there.

John Atkinson said this about the treble response
Higher in frequency, the One's response slopes up in the upper midrange, and the treble region is balanced 3–5dB too high in level compared with the midrange. Using the speakers close to boundaries, as on a desktop, will bring up the lower-midrange and bass regions, to give a more neutral balance. In free space, however, this sloped-up response will indeed give the impression of superb retrieval of recorded detail …
In addition to the bright sound, the small diameter drivers start beaming their sound instead of widely dispersing it. Atkinson said:
However, as expected from the drive-unit's 2.5" radiating diameter, its output becomes quite directional in the top two audio octaves, which will counteract the high-treble peakiness in the speaker's on-axis output.
Here is Figure 4 that compares speaker output on-axis (0 degrees, see the scale on the right side) to various degrees off-axis, as high as ±90 degrees. Note how there is wide dispersion at all off-axis angles up to a peak at about 3,000 to 4,000 Hz. But higher than that, off-axis dispersion drops off considerably. No 3" driver can avoid doing that. That's what smaller tweeters are for.
1684448165357.png

If those were my speakers, I'd start looking for good quality 2-way or even 3-way monitors. There are plenty of those commercially available. What price range are you considering?
1. IF a bass reflex design speaker is crossed-over ABOVE the the range where the port "takes over" the output range, would that speaker then behave like a sealed cabinet design speaker?
I don't think this matters. But, as I mentioned above, it is possible that these 1+1 speakers can't go low enough to work well with your subwoofers.
2. IF the above it true, how far above the "cross-over" frequency of the port should an active crossover be set...?...and is there a better crossover slope...(tentatively thinking a 24dB./Oct. Linkwitz-Riley design.)
There is no clear cut single answer to this question. It depends on a lot of factors – where the walls are relative to your speakers as well as you the listener. You have to go through some trial & error with speaker placement, listener placement, and sub-to-speaker crossover frequency.
3. Though I am not really a D.I.Y. designer/builder, would I be better served by creating my own monitors???
If you don't have speaker design experience, I would avoid designing your own monitors. There's a long learning curve to do this well. The same goes for DIY wood working tools & wood working experience. However, there are a lot of very good quality DIY speaker kits where all the design work has been done by someone experienced at it.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
First of all, welcome to AudioHolics … whether you're an audiophile or an audioholic ;). Before I say anything further, I've never heard of your speakers before, much less actually listened to them. So keep that in mind.

First, a few questions: Are these speakers new? Or, have you had them a while? Because they are bi-polar monitors, their location in your room is quite important. How far away from the wall behind them do you have them? Are they out into the room a good distance, or are they close to the wall behind them? Your comments about their spacious sound suggest you've done that.

I looked online for a review of these speakers that includes decent measurements. I did find a review in Stereophile of The One speaker, not the 1+1. It may be good enough to tell us something about how full-range their 3" driver is, even if it isn't the bi-polar version with 2 drivers. I don't think it's too much to guess that The One and the 1+1 speakers share the same drivers and have similar passive radiator cabinet tuning.
The 1+1 speaker cabinets have passive radiators which work essentially the same as a ported bass reflex cabinet. They are not a sealed box design. However, you may be right that there is something not quite right with their bass response that could lead to your difficulty in blending them to your subs. John Atkinson (the Stereophile measurements guy) had this to say:
Please note that John Atkinson's loudspeaker measurements are good, but he often understates things in an effort to avoid annoying a potential advertiser. I always find myself wishing I had a lawyer to help interpret his language. But I do think he's agreeing with your observation about the 1+1's bass response.

Here is Figure 3 from the review. The red trace is the response of the passive radiator and the blue trace is the bass from the 3" driver. The black trace is the overall response.
View attachment 62031
To me, the most obvious flaw I see is the elevated & ragged treble response, especially above 1,000 Hz. That 3" driver may be a good mid-range driver, but it isn't a good tweeter. That may very well be the overall brightness that you hear. I can't predict exactly how that might vary in a bi-polar design using two of those drivers, but I think the brightness will still be there.

John Atkinson said this about the treble response

In addition to the bright sound, the small diameter drivers start beaming their sound instead of widely dispersing it. Atkinson said:

Here is Figure 4 that compares speaker output on-axis (0 degrees, see the scale on the right side) to various degrees off-axis, as high as ±90 degrees. Note how there is wide dispersion at all off-axis angles up to a peak at about 3,000 to 4,000 Hz. But higher than that, off-axis dispersion drops off considerably. No 3" driver can avoid doing that. That's what smaller tweeters are for.
View attachment 62033
If those were my speakers, I'd start looking for good quality 2-way or even 3-way monitors. There are plenty of those commercially available. What price range are you considering?
I don't think this matters. But, as I mentioned above, it is possible that these 1+1 speakers can't go low enough to work well with your subwoofers.
There is no clear cut single answer to this question. It depends on a lot of factors – where the walls are relative to your speakers as well as you the listener. You have to go through some trial & error with speaker placement, listener placement, and sub-to-speaker crossover frequency.
If you don't have speaker design experience, I would avoid designing your own monitors. There's a long learning curve to do this well. The same goes for DIY wood working tools & wood working experience. However, there are a lot of very good quality DIY speaker kits where all the design work has been done by someone experienced at it.
Welcome to the forum. I have not encountered those speakers before.

I would make comments based on the design and the Stereophile measurements.

First the crossover. A passive crossover below about 350 Hz is just a bad idea. The components, principally the inductors have too much DC resistance and also prone to resonance because of the high inductance. A crossover at 100 Hz needs to be active.

This speaker is based on a full range design. Now at a frequency determined by the front baffle width, a speaker transitions from being a half space radiator, to being an omnipole. This is the transition frequency. The result is acoustic loss below the transition frequency. This has to be compensated for in the crossover. However a full range design has no crossover.

You can see from the measurements that the transition frequency of your speakers is 700 to 750 Hz, causing the loss of output. The cone is starting to break up at 2KHz and really looses it above 10 KHz.

Full range drivers are tricky. I know as I have been involved in the JW module and its development.

So the bottom line is that those are not very good speakers, and have significant short comings.

So the bar is low, and you could certainly build or purchase better.

I am an avid DIYer, and if you want to go that route I can advise you, but it is a fairly steep leaning curve as there are complex issues.
 

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