Bass Management: A Controversy

[Dolby CP-200]

Thank you very much, I’ve just Google it and, need to take a deep breath now! $9K! Holy mother of God that is very costly.

PS. for same reason or another I get the TrueRTA to perform without some kind of signal noise being introduced below 70db, this is when the unit is idle and not receiving an input via the microphone or any internal input source. It’s the either the sound card or the settings. But id however use the Technics RTA in my home cinema that acts as a fairly good RTA.

There is this Wizard EQ thing that I have looked at, not sure if this software would be beneficial at looking at the peaks and dips and getting this whole boom affair out of the room as much as possible. I know there are bass traps that can deal with some of this and then there’s the distinct placement of the sub bass or sub bass array.

 

[Sleestack]

Thank you very much, I’ve just Google it and, need to take a deep breath now! $9K! Holy mother of God that is very costly.

Somewhat, but I'd rather spend $9K on something that focuses just on sound and gets it right than $9K on a high end pre/pro that has all the bells and whistles, but can't even help you improve your sound. As advanced room correction becomes more widely used and developed, I think you will see pieces like TACT available at consumer prices.

 

[Dolby CP-200]

LOL it’s the old saying you’re hearing can you put a price on it! So if I won the national lottery I might shell out on a good sound computer package. But as of now I’m just a poor ole man who has to use older techniques.

Bass boom doesn’t really bother me too much, providing I don’t get hammered with minutes on end! The home cinema uses up too two sub bass units one for sub bass extension of the three-screen and surrounds. The second sub is solely used for the LFE.1 only!

 

[Sleestack]

Keep in mind that advanced room correction not only deals with sub issues, but your entire system interaction.

Audyssey also incorporates room correction into some mainstream consume products. I'm not overly impressed with their system, but I haven't used their professional version.

I will say that Audyssey makes some false statements about room correction and their approach on their website. They state they are the only company that deals with time aligment which is simply not true. they might have a unique approach, but they are far from the only ones dealing with time alignment. They also state that their room correction solution is the first that works because it deals with both frequency and time alignment. Simply not true.

 

[Dolby CP-200]

Audyessy, yes I have heard of them over the past year now.

Since reading parts of this thread and I don’t mind experimenting with my home cinema until I’m blue in the face, THX is an experiment and with lots of ways for me to do it at home. I’ll set up the academy award winning film The Last of the Mohicans via laserdisc, I do have the exclusive six-track Dolby Stereo version on DVD but I need to flick back quickly with the sound and only Laserdisc is quicker.

I’ll be making some minor changes to the sub bass that is used for sub bass extension only which only employs a 12” sub bass driver. Its larger counterpart is a huge 18” JBL cinema professional.

So, what will I be looking for kick parcel kick in the sub bass extension while the rest of the JBL screen channels centre channel should provide some good kick in the upper bass mid frequencies while the sub bass extension should give some good depth without mudding up or colourizing the audio spectrum too much!

 

[gene]

They state they are the only company that deals with time aligment which is simply not true. they might have a unique approach, but they are far from the only ones dealing with time alignment. They also state that their room correction solution is the first that works because it deals with both frequency and time alignment. Simply not true.

Agreed. Not sure how they can make such claims. Perhaps they should qualify it with "compared to mainstream systems".

 

[Sleestack]

Agreed. Not sure how they can make such claims. Perhaps they should qualify it with "compared to mainstream systems".

I'm still very interested in their Pro product and would love to see your in-room corrected measurements. I just think that since most people are relatively new to the correction game, and could easily be misled by such a statement. I also think that their Pro gear pushes them past the point of "mainstream, " so their statments should be applicable to all the correction options available. Minor point, but one that I thought should be noted.

 

[Buckle-meister]

Yes, they are TACT W210 cornerload subs and aren't really subs per se. They are designed to be crossed over as high as 800Hz, although I cross them around 200-300Hz.

But at 200 to 300Hz the subs must be localizable. Your 2.2 system must in practice sound like a 4.2 system no? No wonder you hear such a wide soundstage.

 

[Sleestack]

But at 200 to 300Hz the subs must be localizable. Your 2.2 system must in practice sound like a 4.2 system no? No wonder you hear such a wide soundstage.

No, actually not at all... because of the timing corrections. Completely transparent. It seems strange, but that is why I have said my setup can't be used w/o room correction. It is hard to believe or understand until you hear it. The soundstage is more a result of the massive Epiphanys.

 

[Buckle-meister]

The soundstage is more a result of the massive Epiphanys.

They are nice right enough, I'll grant you that. Oh, and you still haven't posted the review of them.

 

[Sleestack]

They are nice right enough, I'll grant you that. Oh, and you still haven't posted the review of them.

Yes, I do. It's just that I use them such a unique setup, I'm not sure that my impressions would be applicable.

Anyway, a little info on cornerload subs from the Lyngdorf site:

The w210 is a dedicated corner woofer designed for 2+2 configuration systems. This is not your regular subwoofer, but a product which has been engineered to overcome fundamental problems when placing speakers in a room. This will complement the MH-1 - or any other speaker for that matter…

No, it is not a subwoofer
The W210 might look like a subwoofer – but it is far from being that. With its precision, dynamics and incredible speed it is a corner woofer specifically designed to work in active 2+2 configuration systems. It is designed to load optimally to the room, blending in to a discreet position, and offering new possibilities in speaker arrangement and design. The W210 is designed to be placed in the front corners of your room making it possible to design active 2+2 systems e.g. with the MH-1s or smaller satellite speaker systems.

Conventional subwoofers are designed with heavy diaphragms, large magnet systems, and very poor efficiency due to the heavy moving systems. Moving masses in modern subwoofers can easily exceed several hundred grams. The W210 is designed in a completely different manner with a high speed lightweight driver granting a frequency response which is linear way up into the midrange area.

The way to do it
In spite of the lightweight design, punch and power are delivered with a precision which cannot be obtained from a normal speaker system. This is only possible because of the way these speakers load the corners of the room. At the lower octaves any system will deliver a high gain thus reducing the need for power, equal to increased efficiency.

Placing the W210 in a 2+2 configuration ensures coherent arrival of the direct sound and the first critical reflections from the floor, side and front walls. Compared to the traditionally delayed arrival of several low frequency reflections within the first milliseconds of dynamic signals, there is no delay in the way the pressure builds up from a drum kick. The W210 can free up the dynamics in your system in several ways. Actually the W210 is rarely fed with more than 5 watts, even when playing really loud. And in this case, really loud also means very clean.

 

[Seth=L]

So Sleestack, what kind of responce do you get from the W120? I would really like to hear your system, I bet it is orgasmic.

 

[Sleestack]

So Sleestack, what kind of responce do you get from the W120? I would really like to hear your system, I bet it is orgasmic.

It's a amazing. I've never heard bass like it. It's hard to describe other than saying that it is the most refined and controlled, yet impactful bass, I have ever heard in a 2.2 channel setup. You never feel like you are listening to isolated subs. It just sounds like everything is coming at you with perfect timing and decay.

It isn't like my Velodyne's 20Hz earth shaking bass but do you really want that in a music system? They can create the shake, but I tend to rolloff my low end at 30Hz to avoid that in my 2.2. setup. They once vibrated a 6'x6' mirror off my wall from accross the house.

 

[Seth=L]

Your PM's are full Sleestack.

 

[Sheep]

It's a amazing. I've never heard bass like it. It's hard to describe other than saying that it is the most refined and controlled, yet impactful bass, I have ever heard in a 2.2 channel setup. You never feel like you are listening to isolated subs. It just sounds like everything is coming at you with perfect timing and decay.

It isn't like my Velodyne's 20Hz earth shaking bass but do you really want that in a music system? They can create the shake, but I tend to rolloff my low end at 30Hz to avoid that in my 2.2. setup. They once vibrated a 6'x6' mirror off my wall from accross the house.

Phhft, someone such as yourself should have a sound proof house.

SheepStar

 

[Seth=L]

Phhft, someone such as yourself should have a sound proof house.

SheepStar

You will have to speak up, he can't hear you whispering, just think about how loud he listens to his music.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What I meant about output, louder isn't better. Even responce across the board is desireable.

Now you are talking about frequency response. You still need to contend with the room effect with low drivers

 

[Nick250]

I think that is generally true, but I don't think the crossover for the mains have to be 80Hz, especially in a room corrected system. My setup definitely sounds better with a 50Hz crossover. I always set my LFE crossover at 80Hz.

Doing that you lose any LFE between 80Hz and 120Hz. What's the reasoning behind this?

Nick

 

[Sleestack]

Phhft, someone such as yourself should have a sound proof house.

SheepStar

What would that do for me? I guess prevent mirrors from coming down, but I would still need room corection for timing of my cornerloads. Also, every room I've ever been in would benefit from correction.

 

[Sleestack]

Doing that you lose any LFE between 80Hz and 120Hz. What's the reasoning behind this?

Nick

I might be. Sometimes I set no crossover for the LFE, I'm just not a big LFE guy. I listen to more 5.1 audio than movies, so I prefer the LFE channel more subdued. I do have settings for no LFE crossover and 5 db gain on the LFE signal that I just use for movies.