Barely hear movie characters talking....

[BioLinksAudio]

Muddy center channel dialog

The problem with unclear dialog is generally relegated to center channel problems. Whether it is the speaker or the receiver is up for debate. I wonder if it is a combination of both.

 

[BioLinksAudio]

Muddy center channel

How can you determine what is causing the problem? Built in TV sound is not as bad as the add-on surround sound system, it appears.

 

[BioLinksAudio]

Muddy center channel

I have read reviews of the so-called sound bars that have addressed this problem successfully. But that doesn't help the owner of an existing HT surround sound system that is experiencing "what did he say?" issues.

 

[cvcgolf]

If you have an extra dvd player or can borrow one then try swapping that out. Of course you must make sure all speakers are balanced properly like others have stated. At the Dr. office I work at we have Samsung players hooked up to lcd screens and I hear the same problems you have. Having my hometheater with this problem would drive me nuts.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you have an extra dvd player or can borrow one then try swapping that out. Of course you must make sure all speakers are balanced properly like others have stated. At the Dr. office I work at we have Samsung players hooked up to lcd screens and I hear the same problems you have. Having my hometheater with this problem would drive me nuts.

Don't feed him, this is obviously a clown flogging a bogus product in which he has a financial interest.

If you can't hear the dialog, your system is improperly adjusted and or you have lousy speakers. I hear natural dialog all the time on both of my rigs.

 

[Highbar]

Agree with TLS Guy on this. All you have to do is setup your system right. I've never had this problem.

On a side note this thread was over a year and a half old before it was brought back to advertise something

 

[MidnightSensi]

I have been over this ground before, but it is worth repeating. The center channel speaker is a tough challenge. I really believe very few speaker manufacturers give it the thought and attention it deserves. For a start many loudspeakers that have good speech clarity are not good music reproducers. Why, because of cheating and a slight boost given in the 1.5 to 2.5 KHz range. This makes them tiresome for music. The lobing pattern of the vast majority of center channel speakers is in my view incorrect.

The center channel lobing pattern is crucial I have found. I found this out getting my fathers system right. He was anxious to get going with all this before Dolby 5.1. It became apparent from my researches that the center channel is actually one of the biggest challenges a speaker designer can be presented with. It has to take a lot of power, be relatively small and a very good all round performer.

There is a particular problem in most rooms in that the center speaker by necessity, ends up being too close to the front left and rights. By too close I mean less than seven feet. The result is comb filtering between the front three speakers. In other words summing and cancellations at different frequencies.

I have found that a very good speaker built round a coaxial driver is the best solution. The woofer cone acts as a wave guide to the tweeter, to result in a distribution pattern that minimizes speaker to speaker interference.

The issue has been raised as to whether this results in a sweet spot problem. The answer is no. In fact the reverse. Very uniform coverage at all seats. It seems KEF and Thiel and Tannoy have come to the same conclusion I have.

Now increasing the center speaker level does help the intelligibility issue, however it destroys the perspective. I like my sound field to be behind the plane of the front speakers. Even a small increase in center speaker level, brings the sound field forward. Now I calibrate my system with a phantom powered studio condenser microphone. I have found the 1db steps on the preamp processor to be too great! I found I had to add a potentiometer, between the center preamp output and the center channel electronic crossover.

I have found the best torture test for speech clarity in the midst of action to be the battle scenes in Master and Commander. If you can reproduce that with speaker levels correctly set and hear the dialog, then in my view your system is on the right track.

Very good advice.

I listen to music in stereo, so while my front soundstage does match very well, I have selected a different speaker than my L and R to act as the center due to its nice wide off-axis response.

A problem I notice in most home theaters is simply a lack of dynamic capability. Surround mixes get their 'punch' from lots of dynamics, some movies are mixed with wider ranges between the dialog and the sound effects than others. If the system can't keep up with the explosions and such, and the system sounds strained... then they interpret that as too loud (because strained speakers are fatiguing), then the user turns it down and then the dialog is too soft. Another thing I see a lot is the subwoofer turned up too much for its own good, so its just making some rumbling noises over the soundtrack and it ends up muffling everything else, or the user turns down the system to preserve the subwoofers integrity. A lot of home theater systems the subwoofer is running on its rails, and the speakers are -6dB lower humming along. If they turn it up more, then the subwoofer starts to sound strained and its interpreted as 'too loud.'

Some movies also a problem, but, testing with a movie you know is good will rule that out.

 

[BioLinksAudio]

Don't feed him, this is obviously a clown flogging a bogus product in which he has a financial interest.

If you can't hear the dialog, your system is improperly adjusted and or you have lousy speakers. I hear natural dialog all the time on both of my rigs.

I am new to this forum so please excuse my poor communication skills. I understood that a new user had to make 5 posts before he was allowed to start an new thread or, become a member of the fraternity, so-to-speak. So, that's why I made the single sentence posts. Mea culpa. Looks like somebody thinks I am a spammer now. The ad hominem attacks are unfounded, Mr. TLS Guy.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am new to this forum so please excuse my poor communication skills. I understood that a new user had to make 5 posts before he was allowed to start an new thread or, become a member of the fraternity, so-to-speak. So, that's why I made the single sentence posts. Mea culpa. Looks like somebody thinks I am a spammer now. The ad hominem attacks are unfounded, Mr. TLS Guy.

My apologies if you are not a spammer. However you impersonated one perfectly. We are bothered by them frequently.

They start as you did pushing a product that sounds highly suspect, in your case "The Dialog Augmentation Device. You also made a bold claim that it could be connected to any center channel, including the lowest of HTIBs. You also stated you had a blog devoted to this nonsense.

This was in your first post mind you. You never stated your intention of running up posts to be able to become a member in full standing. Others have honestly done this, and we understand and assist them.

If you expect us to give credence to anything you have to say, then you need to disclose full details of this device you mentioned in you first post and further declare that you have no financial interest in the device/product what so ever.

If you can honestly make the declaration, then we will extend a friendly welcome!

If you are indeed a genuine poster, then you have a lot to learn, judging by what you have posted so far. In this we are glad to assist within in the limits of what education is possible and reasonable in a forum of this nature.

 

[lsiberian]

I am new to this forum so please excuse my poor communication skills. I understood that a new user had to make 5 posts before he was allowed to start an new thread or, become a member of the fraternity, so-to-speak. So, that's why I made the single sentence posts. Mea culpa. Looks like somebody thinks I am a spammer now. The ad hominem attacks are unfounded, Mr. TLS Guy.

If you are indeed a genuine poster, then you have a lot to learn, judging by what you have posted so far. In this we are glad to assist within in the limits of what education is possible and reasonable in a forum of this nature.

If you want to be become a member of this community in more than just the account sense it takes time and humor. We don't suffer fools gladly unless they can make good jokes or are too persistent to be run off.

And check the date of the thread. If it's more than a couple months old. Leave it alone. This one predates me being on this forum. That tells you how old it is.

 

[JerryLove]

We don't suffer fools gladly unless they can make good jokes or are too persistent to be run off.

Now that you mention it, the Monkey hasn't chimed in

 

[lsiberian]

Now that you mention it, the Monkey hasn't chimed in

In my experience folks like the Monkeys turn out to be the truly smart ones.

 

[JerryLove]

In my experience folks like the Monkeys turn out to be the truly smart ones.

That would be my experience as well. (this message brought to you by "Audioholics minimum message-length rules and the letter "Q").

 

[BioLinksAudio]

My apologies if you are not a spammer. However you impersonated one perfectly. We are bothered by them frequently.

They start as you did pushing a product that sounds highly suspect, in your case "The Dialog Augmentation Device. You also made a bold claim that it could be connected to any center channel, including the lowest of HTIBs. You also stated you had a blog devoted to this nonsense.

This was in your first post mind you. You never stated your intention of running up posts to be able to become a member in full standing. Others have honestly done this, and we understand and assist them.

If you expect us to give credence to anything you have to say, then you need to disclose full details of this device you mentioned in you first post and further declare that you have no financial interest in the device/product what so ever.

If you can honestly make the declaration, then we will extend a friendly welcome!

If you are indeed a genuine poster, then you have a lot to learn, judging by what you have posted so far. In this we are glad to assist within in the limits of what education is possible and reasonable in a forum of this nature.

Okay, that's a fair criticism except your bit about my "...blog devoted to this nonsense." I do indeed have a financial interest in the DAD and will gladly consider purchasing a banner ad on this site if you will help me contact or deal with someone direct on this subject. BTW, I have been awarded 8 utility patents for inventions that were considered nonsense by many until they became standards in the industry. This product is also patented but full details will heretofore be reserved for disclosure on my self-serving site.

 

[lsiberian]

Okay, that's a fair criticism except your bit about my "...blog devoted to this nonsense." I do indeed have a financial interest in the DAD and will gladly consider purchasing a banner ad on this site if you will help me contact or deal with someone direct on this subject. BTW, I have been awarded 8 utility patents for inventions that were considered nonsense by many until they became standards in the industry. This product is also patented but full details will heretofore be reserved for disclosure on my self-serving site.

You have 10 posts here and are arguing with one of our top speaker builders and experts. This doesn't bode well for anything you are trying to sell.

As far as getting a banner up. It ain't gonna happen if you persist in arguing with TLS. Audioholics is a run by really great folks, but they don't let just anyone advertise here. Remember it's your job to win us over not the other way around.

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay, that's a fair criticism except your bit about my "...blog devoted to this nonsense." I do indeed have a financial interest in the DAD and will gladly consider purchasing a banner ad on this site if you will help me contact or deal with someone direct on this subject. BTW, I have been awarded 8 utility patents for inventions that were considered nonsense by many until they became standards in the industry. This product is also patented but full details will heretofore be reserved for disclosure on my self-serving site.

Thank you for your honesty. However you have infringed the forum rules.

If you can convince Gene and his staff your product if legitimate and useful, then I'm sure he will be glad to take your money.

None of your posts make sense, so I highly doubt you have patented a product that will further the state of the art.

So now all is in the open. For myself, and I would bet for most forum members, you have an axe to grind to promote a highly spurious product.

Snake oil products are usually packaged in pseudo science and statements that make no sense and can't be backed up, just as in your posts in this thread.

 

[lsiberian]

I just read your blog.

http://clearcenterchannel.com/

I wouldn't think a person would register the domain just for the purposes of trolling us. Seems he invented the concealed camera.

He took the thread and used it as an example on his forum then sold his product as the solution.

He goes as far as to say an improvement in the center channel wouldn't make a difference or that running it hot wouldn't help. He fails immediately on both points.

An upgraded center most certainly improves sound in the center channel. For example when I used to buy commercial speakers. I upgraded my Infinity Beta 250 to a 360 and the dialogue was way better. In fact the speaker was better than my L-R channels at dialogue.

On his 2nd point. I would disagree again. I've found running the channel 4 db hotter makes a hearing dialogue much easier furthermore dynamic range compression also helps.

Finally most folks have poorly setup theaters with the L-R channels right next to the TV and surrounds way too close to their ears. Dolby and others mix their stuff so folks with proper setups get maximum benefits. I can't tell you how many folks have jacked up home theaters. Mine is currently messed up too. I can't wait to have my own home theater room.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just read your blog.

http://clearcenterchannel.com/

I wouldn't think a person would register the domain just for the purposes of trolling us. Seems he invented the concealed camera.

He took the thread and used it as an example on his forum then sold his product as the solution.

He goes as far as to say an improvement in the center channel wouldn't make a difference or that running it hot wouldn't help. He fails immediately on both points.

An upgraded center most certainly improves sound in the center channel. For example when I used to buy commercial speakers. I upgraded my Infinity Beta 250 to a 360 and the dialogue was way better. In fact the speaker was better than my L-R channels at dialogue.

On his 2nd point. I would disagree again. I've found running the channel 4 db hotter makes a hearing dialogue much easier furthermore dynamic range compression also helps.

Finally most folks have poorly setup theaters with the L-R channels right next to the TV and surrounds way too close to their ears. Dolby and others mix their stuff so folks with proper setups get maximum benefits. I can't tell you how many folks have jacked up home theaters. Mine is currently messed up too. I can't wait to have my own home theater room.

His website is unadulterated cod's wallop.

At least his cover is now blown, and hopefully we will soon see banned against posts.

 

[njedpx3]

Match the center to your fronts

I can barely hear movie characters talking during a movie on my surround sound but during an action scene it sounds like the speakers are going to explode. What's the deal??? I've tried several different settings (stadium, theater, etc.), adjusting the volumne on each of the speakers. Nothing seems to work. Any suggestions????

Kbl0424404,

I just went back and reread all of the thread. Maybe I missed it but I don't see where you mention your speakers, especially your front and center. What do you currently have; I think that maybethe prime source of your problem.

Most of my HT ( 90% or so) is TV or DVDs (BD and stnd) , so dialog is very, very important to me.

To obtain great, excellent dialog I recommend a very good center that matches your front speakers to maintain timbre (seamless front sound). While a phatom center speaker is good for music, for TV and DVDs IMHO get a real center to provide the best dialog. Same with a sound bar; two fronts and matching center is a better solution. Surrounds are for enhancement, but don't add much ( nor detract much) from the audio dialog.

As far as the SPL level, you really don't need to boost the center if you set all your speaker levels equal with Audyssey or SPL meter. If you are hab=ving to do this, you are masking the real problem.

Good Luck!

Forest Man

 

[lsiberian]

Kbl0424404,

I just went back and reread all of the thread. Maybe I missed it but I don't see where you mention your speakers, especially your front and center. What do you currently have; I think that maybethe prime source of your problem.

Most of my HT ( 90% or so) is TV or DVDs (BD and stnd) , so dialog is very, very important to me.

To obtain great, excellent dialog I recommend a very good center that matches your front speakers to maintain timbre (seamless front sound). While a phatom center speaker is good for music, for TV and DVDs IMHO get a real center to provide the best dialog. Same with a sound bar; two fronts and matching center is a better solution. Surrounds are for enhancement, but don't add much ( nor detract much) from the audio dialog.

As far as the SPL level, you really don't need to boost the center if you set all your speaker levels equal with Audyssey or SPL meter. If you are hab=ving to do this, you are masking the real problem.

Good Luck!

Forest Man

Check the dates.