B&W and Krell vs. Dynaudio and Sunfire-Carver

T

twdecker

Audiophyte
The basic tenet behind the need for input on my new HT system is that Krell components - notably amps - work much better with B&W speaker systems; they are a bit trickier with others such as Dynaudio and Klipsch. After reviewing myriad systems in that boutique mid to mid/hi range, I've come to the conclusion that it's either a B&W/Krell combination or the Dynaudio/Sunfire-Carver combo. I realize that model range/numbers are key and would appreciate input on this as well. Plan on going with the Tara Labs or Purists audio cables. Thanks so much for any thoughts, input and advice.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
The basic tenet behind the need for input on my new HT system is that Krell components - notably amps - work much better with B&W speaker systems; they are a bit trickier with others such as Dynaudio and Klipsch.
You need to get rid of this nonsensical belief. Sure preamps might sound different, but amps all have (or should have) the exact same goal, and that would be a ruler flat signal without distortion. Even if I was to capitulate that pre/pros may sound differently, and outside of some really terribly built or even defective unit in the mix, it will be sooo miniscule compared to speaker/room/listener interaction.

After reviewing myriad systems in that boutique mid to mid/hi range, I've come to the conclusion that it's either a B&W/Krell combination or the Dynaudio/Sunfire-Carver combo. I realize that model range/numbers are key and would appreciate input on this as well. Plan on going with the Tara Labs or Purists audio cables. Thanks so much for any thoughts, input and advice.
Forget the fancy cables, more nonsense. This comes from someone with a pair of Tara speaker cables that I either got for free or cheap because the arrows (which is more nonsense) are in the wrong direction (and not that it matters because they have the 4 "biwires" on one end). One of them came apart in fact at one of the terminations, and I had to crimp it to fix it. My cheaper locking bananas and Neutriks are waaaaay more secure in functionality and build.

Wire is wire is wire. Copper is copper is copper. Cu is Cu is Cu. Just get a big enough gauge for the run + lowest impedance. Though I do understand some wire looks cooler than other wire.


Name: Copper
Symbol: Cu
Atomic Number: 29
Atomic Mass: 63.546 amu
Melting Point: 1083.0 °C (1356.15 K, 1981.4 °F)
Boiling Point: 2567.0 °C (2840.15 K, 4652.6 °F)
Number of Protons/Electrons: 29
Number of Neutrons: 35
Classification: Transition Metal
Crystal Structure: Cubic
Density @ 293 K: 8.96 g/cm3
Color: red/orange

For the specific models, yep you betcha it matters. I think BW doesn't quite take off until the 8xx series (I am ok with the 7xx and 6xx series, but I rather buy other speakers for the same money), and for Dynaudio, I really did like the Contour line. I wasn't crazy about their very expensive stuff, but I heard some of that in a smaller room than the Contours. I've never heard Audience, Focus, etc.

Just pick the speakers you like most, taking the lion's share of budget to get there, even if it means you will 80-90% of the budget to so, JMO.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
krells are ridiculously over engineered amps. if u fimd a speaker to sound poor deiven by a krell its aimply a deficiency in the speaker design.
i recall that those sunfires are meant to produce a tube sound which is in some way or another distorion of the signal. amp\speaker synergy is mostly just anther way applying equalization. id definitely audition speakers with the krell but keep in mind that a speaker that sounds good on it should sound good on any well engineered ss amp capable of driving it properly.

if u like the way b&w speakers sound properly driven then get b&w speakers. however you will be able to drive them well with a emotiva xpa2 or 1s. same with wire... it does not
affectsound reproduction assuming sufficient guage for length of run.

fwiw i reccomend Salk Sound
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The basic tenet behind the need for input on my new HT system is that Krell components - notably amps - work much better with B&W speaker systems; they are a bit trickier with others such as Dynaudio and Klipsch. After reviewing myriad systems in that boutique mid to mid/hi range, I've come to the conclusion that it's either a B&W/Krell combination or the Dynaudio/Sunfire-Carver combo. I realize that model range/numbers are key and would appreciate input on this as well. Plan on going with the Tara Labs or Purists audio cables. Thanks so much for any thoughts, input and advice.
While some Dynaudio models have lower impedance and it's a bit tricky for some amps, any well- designed amp with a decent power supply will have no problem driving them. They recently came out with the Excite line, so people with receivers would be able to drive them more easily. I just installed a pair of the Excite 32 last week and they sounded great. This was the pair Dynaudio used for their display at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. Very smooth, open and even in a larger room, the low end was very nice.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
i recall that those sunfires are meant to produce a tube sound which is in some way or another distorion of the signal. ...
If I remember correctly not all of his amps have this attribute and the ones that do is switchable to that mode. But, my memory is not what it used to be.:D
 
T

twdecker

Audiophyte
Thanks Jostenmeat. Great response. I've heard the same about the Contour line and love the look and price as well.
 
T

twdecker

Audiophyte
thanks G. I'm gathering that it really comes down to getting out, closing my eyes and listening to things. Seems like the difference picking between really good amps and really great amps is just hitting hard on the law of neg returns. Pretty confident with what I'm reading that any of the above combos will work out pretty well. Thanks again. T.
 
T

twdecker

Audiophyte
thanks HI - I love the Dynaudios but have been focused on the Contour line as of late. I'll make sure and check out the new line as well.
 
T

twdecker

Audiophyte
JM - what do you recommend for related/associated components (power conditioner, processor, etc.). Being an obvious neophyte, I am assuming that you simply run with the same line as the AMP? Go all Krell or all Sunfire? Thanks. T.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
JM - what do you recommend for related/associated components (power conditioner, processor, etc.). Being an obvious neophyte, I am assuming that you simply run with the same line as the AMP? Go all Krell or all Sunfire? Thanks. T.
I don't have any input on power, because I feel I have no need at all for any conditioner; the voltage here seems to be very stable, and I don't live in a large apartment complex. I do have a dedicated circuit for the HT, and so far as I can tell, it's more than enough. I no longer even have a UPS for my projector. The one thing I'd worry about with either UPS or conditioner is that some of them make a healthy amount of noise. I think the AH store has and does sell conditioners.

No, I don't stick with any brand. In fact, I like trying as many brands as possible, when I can. Currently among amps and processors, I am using Onkyo, NAD, Crown, and Cambridge.

I think Sunfire is a good brand and would be proud to sport it in my system, and for Krell, well I dunno, I'm sure GranteedEV likes them for a reason. I'd be happy with an Outlaw, or an Emotiva (if they did have some QC issues at times, historically). The UPA5 is particularly a real bargain, but it appears you do have a healthy budget.

With processors, things can get tricky (after all it's a pretty complex item). There are only a handful of brands that are, in my estimation, worthy for a mch/HT system. I believe that a large part of this is due to the economies of scale, and only the giant companies can really play and compete. For instance, I think Krell did make some uber expensive HT processor a few years ago, but even the (to me) extremely expensive Denon AVP is a bargain comparatively. Though at least a few years old now, at perhaps a couple grand less, plus/minus, an interesting unit is the Anthem D2v. This Anthem uses ARC1 as its auto eq, and that would be my very next choice if I didn't have Audyssey to choose from. I am unfamiliar with what HK offers in this regard. MCAAC and YPAO are not nearly as sophisticated in their goals. The Anthem will also have some of the best VP you will find in a receiver, but not only do I think this need is overblown for most, outboard VPs have dropped like crazy in price the last couple of years. I'm talking like at least 3.5k for a CMS (which the Anthem doesn't have, but does offer good gamma control) in the VP just less than 2 years ago, and now we can get one for maybe $600?

Some people just want pure direct, no post processing of any* kind. I like to use various post processing, including Audyssey technologies, matrixing algorithms, and the like. For the latest in Audyssey, it might only be several receivers right now. The one worry with the latest techs like those is if any unit has enough processing power to be able to decode, matrix, apply EQ, and more, all simultaneously. I do not have any evidence for or against, but do know that for years Marantz could not do those things simultaneously. However, if you're running say just a 5.1 system, I would assume that a 9.1/11.1 processor would have plenty of power to do all of things for the 5.1.

My current HT processor is Onkyo, so if I can help it, I want to try something different with Audyssey, and I look towards Denon, if and when. I didn't before, because it cost about double to get a similar Denon, but now the pricing seems to be much more comparable. Integra is sort of the pro line of Onkyo, and they were the first to come out HDMI 1.3 pre/pros, AFAIK.

If say you buy an Emo XPA5, a Denon 4311 acting as pre/pro, that will come out to be 2,300ish, for instance. That would be a possible combination that *I* would consider, for the money. Well, personally, I'd probably go for more amp channels (want to do height speakers, and small outside chance of building active speakers which means a need for amp channels galore), but I assume no more than 5 speakers for you right now.

Dunno. That's what I got for you, for now.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
JM - what do you recommend for related/associated components (power conditioner, processor, etc.). Being an obvious neophyte, I am assuming that you simply run with the same line as the AMP? Go all Krell or all Sunfire? Thanks. T.
No point spending so much on electronics as they won't any if much improvement in SQ. The best processors are the ones that give you the features you need and have lots of pre-out voltage on tap (I recommend the Marantz AV7005).


Regarding a power conditioner, I reccommend power backup UPS'. Preferably something which works for the whole house. A dedicated 20a line however will give you extra dynamic headroom. APC makes very nice UPS'
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I think Sunfire is a good brand and would be proud to sport it in my system, and for Krell, well I dunno, I'm sure GranteedEV likes them for a reason. I'd be happy with an Outlaw, or an Emotiva (if they did have some QC issues at times, historically). The UPA5 is particularly a real bargain, but it appears you do have a healthy budget.
For my ultra high end I like Marantz Reference series monoblocks and Mark Levinson. But I think it's all pointless overpriced with no real advantage in pure performancec and an Emotiva XPA-1 would be just as good and possibly better, while being priced a fraction of the cost. My preference for an amplifier would be DIY Hypex UcD700 units. 700w into 4 ohms, and it's class D so it's very power efficient.

However brands like Krell, Boulder etc do have excellent engineering behind their products. It's overpriced, but it's not snake oil. It's more like... "luxury" i guess.

One thing I do like about Krell is that they bothered to design their own interconnect architecture. Whether there's any actual performance advantage to it I doubt but at least it's not a $10000 RCA Cable.
 
T

twdecker

Audiophyte
Thanks much again JM. This gives me some pretty good direction as before. I agree with utilizing products from various manufacturers - "best of breed" approach if you will.

I think I'm good to go. Thanks so much.

T.
 
T

twdecker

Audiophyte
Thanks to you as well, GrantedEV. I'm still digging the Krell or Sunfire with Dynaudio Contour Speakers. Probably going with Sony Bravia 60' LED for vid. T.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks much again JM. This gives me some pretty good direction as before. I agree with utilizing products from various manufacturers - "best of breed" approach if you will.

I think I'm good to go. Thanks so much.

T.
You're welcome. Yeah, I guess it's sorta like best in breed, I suppose. I would check in on that speaker rec that Grant gave you, Salk Sound. Their higher end speakers do have a unique look to them that may or not please you, but at the very least, you can have pretty much any darn finish you'd like, if at a cost. I've never heard them, but have had read enough to know that they are widely regarded and respected, even by those who are extremely picky. I have also learned that the cost of the speakers are set with 40% going towards material costs alone.

The lead candidate for a DIY speaker build for me, atm, is by the same designer of Salk speakers.

Thanks to you as well, GrantedEV. I'm still digging the Krell or Sunfire with Dynaudio Contour Speakers. Probably going with Sony Bravia 60' LED for vid. T.
If the Sunfire costs less, and allows you to get better speakers, that's what I vote for. If I got to choose a luxury amplifier, I've always liked the Pass Labs haha, but they probably are energy hogs and get hot since they are Class A based. Grant knows his amps better than I though, for sure.

I've never owned a flat panel, but I prefer plasmas. I don't know what your budget is. If I was forced to get an LCD TV, I'd try my best to get a locally dimming LED backlit, perhaps a Samsung, not sure.

The best TVs made in the history of the world have been DC'd, but you can still find them. They are pricey now. Pioneer 151, Pioneer 141, and if you were extremely lucky to find the lower priced but identical panel, KRP600M. They were had for a few weeks at $3k instead of more than double that. Your name could be Bill Gates, and you can't buy a better TV.

Of course if you really want a home theater, it's time to look at projectors.
 
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