B&W 804d3 amplifier, Rotel Ra1572 vs Rb-1552 with Denon AVR-X3700H?

[familiar1985]

Hello,

I have recently purchased a new pair of B&W 804d3 speakers and am trying to decide on how to power them. I generally prefer a transparent and accurate sound as I have been accustomed to listening and mixing music on Dynaudio nearfield studio monitors. I will be using this system for music and movies/tv but would like top notch music performance. Current plan is a 5.1 video system that will be used for stereo music as well.

• Front Mains: B&W 804d3
• Center: HTM2d3
• Surrounds: B&W CCM 816
• Subwoofer : Undecided (Rel S812, JL Fathom F112/F113 or (open to suggestions)
• AV Receiver: Denon AVR-X3700H (I have this on order from B&H but can cancel if I decide to use something else)
• Power Amplifier: Undecided (Rotel, Music Fidelity?)

I have listened to a few integrated configurations at the local dealer recently, including Mcintosh MA5300, Rotel RA1572, and Arcam SA20. Of those I have narrowed my preference to the Rotel. I found the Mcintosh to be less accurate and Arcam a bit too bright. I may give the Arcam another listen. I would also like to listen to a few more amps before finalizing my purchase. The next integrated I really want to try that I have access to at local audio shops is the Music Fidelity M5si. That being said if anyone has recommendations, I will appreciate it.

I also was able to listen to the Rel s812 which I thought was very nice. I tried the Rel S/5 SHO as it was on sale and it was not comparable whatsoever.

When I listened to stereo music from the Denon AVR-X3700H it was really bad compared to all other options above. I am a bit concerned with using it for music as a processor, but am being told that if I use a different amp, I should be ok. So for powering, if I was to go with Rotel, which is likely right now, I have a few options:

• Option 1: Rotel RA1572 (120w x2 integrated amplifier) $2000 – This is the integrated amp I demoed, I found it sounded very good and was definitely enough power to drive these speakers well. Goal would be to connect through Denon as a home theatre pass through and listen to music with Denon off.
• Option 2: Rotel Rb-1552 MKII (130w x2 amplifier) $1300 – I havn’t listened to it but If I connect this to Denon, would I get comparable sound to using Option 1? If so, I would have an easier more simple connection and save some money.
• Option 3: Rotel Rmb-1555 (120w x5, all powered) $2000 – I havn’t listened to this one either. Would I get comparable sound to options above for stereo audio connected to the Denon? The spec states 120w x5 at 8ohm with all five channels powered but I cannot find any testing info to validate this and to see what is the output with 2ch powered. This option would be the best deal as it would allow me to power everything at cheapest price point.

I appreciate any feedback, advice or comments. Thank you!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I recently purchased a new pair of B&W 804d3 speakers and am trying to decide on how to power them...

...When I listened to stereo music from the Denon AVR-X3700H it was really bad compared to all other options above...

Well, for $9K speakers, I think most people would buy separates if they feel that AVRs like the Denon sound “REALLY BAD“.

The Denon X3000 series can output 184W x 2Ch into 4 ohms continuous. So I don’t think power is the problem.

Now AVRs like the Yamaha RX-A3080 (if you can find one) can output about 300 Watts x 2CH into 4 ohms continuous.

But I‘ve used the Denon X3000 series to power the 802d2. Sounded pretty good. Did not have any power issues.

 

[mazersteven]

Why not this?

RB-1582 MkII

At 2 x 200 Watts per channel and utilizing Rotel's Balanced Design Concept for superior performance, the RB-1582 MkII is a compelling stereo amplifier.

www.rotel.com

 

[familiar1985]

Why not this?

RB-1582 MkII

At 2 x 200 Watts per channel and utilizing Rotel's Balanced Design Concept for superior performance, the RB-1582 MkII is a compelling stereo amplifier.

www.rotel.com

I considered this one but the Ra1572 at only 120w per channel sounded really good. I think It should be enough power from the Rotels I listed.

 

[mazersteven]

By the way the subwoofers that you listed are terrible choices. But you say you're open to suggestions. But then again if you can hear the difference in amps then you're hearing is absolutely better than mine so who am I to recommend. But when you're given one you shut it down quick, so for that reason I'm out.

 

[familiar1985]

Well, for $9K speakers, I think most people would buy separates if they feel that AVRs like the Denon sound “REALLY BAD“.

The Denon X3000 series can output 184W x 2Ch into 4 ohms continuous. So I don’t think power is the problem.

Now AVRs like the Yamaha RX-A3080 (if you can find one) can output about 300 Watts x 2CH into 4 ohms continuous.

But I‘ve used the Denon X3000 series to power the 802d2. Sounded pretty good. Did not have any power issues.

When listening to the Denon, the issue was that it sounded less accurate and had worse imaging. Instruments were harder to locate. It sounded more mono. I don’t know why this was the case, power or other build issues. It could be the way they have it wired possibly. Maybe I’ll try to listen to it somewhere else if I have a chance.

I did consider separates however if you see from my listed options I thought the Rotel that I listened to sounded really good. I don’t want to sacrifice stereo music sound due to using amps that are built into an avr. Maybe I will see if they have any of that Yamaha series in stock locally with 804d3 that I can audition.

Price wise though, with a Denon x3070h, and Rotel Rmb-1555 (all channels driven 120w at 8ohm) I would be at $3300. This sounds like a pretty good deal if I can get performance for music that I get from the Rotel RA1572 as I can always upgrade Denon in future if I like.

 

[familiar1985]

T

By the way the subwoofers that you listed are terrible choices. But you say you're open to suggestions. But then again if you can hear the difference in amps then you're hearing is absolutely better than mine so who am I to recommend. But when you're given one you shut it down quick, so for that reason I'm out.

View attachment 42872

Thank you for your input. I apologize if I came off rude or something. Just trying to say that I went through that thought process already. The amp you suggested (RB-1582 200w per ch) or Rotel RA1592 is what I thought I needed power wise based on online research. I was on the same page as you. I then auditioned these speakers with Rotel providing 120w per channel and it sounded very good, and was plenty of power IMO.

You will get different performance and sound from different amps. There is likely an exaggeration of this in the hifi industry however it is the case. If you have not discovered these differences it is probably wise to not make recommendations.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When listening to the Denon, the issue was that it sounded less accurate and had worse imaging. Instruments were harder to locate. It sounded more mono. I don’t know why this was the case, power or other build issues. It could be the way they have it wired possibly. Maybe I’ll try to listen to it somewhere else if I have a chance.

I did consider separates however if you see from my listed options I thought the Rotel that I listened to sounded really good. I don’t want to sacrifice stereo music sound due to using amps that are built into an avr. Maybe I will see if they have any of that Yamaha series in stock locally with 804d3 that I can audition.

Price wise though, with a Denon x3070h, and Rotel Rmb-1555 (all channels driven 120w at 8ohm) I would be at $3300. This sounds like a pretty good deal if I can get performance for music that I get from the Rotel RA1572 as I can always upgrade Denon in future if I like.

So it's not about power since the Rotel 120WPC is enough.

And you think it might be the power section of the Denon AVR that is messing up the sound.

It doesn't click with me at all to say, "I'm buying a Denon AVR even though the Denon Amp section sucks".

Like I said, if you think ANY section of the Denon is messing up your sound, why even buy it? Try another AVR or just get separates altogether.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow those are some awesome ears you must have. I'd suspect the comparisons themselves likely could be improved upon....but without details of setup/environement hard to know what you're hearing. I'd also pass on the Rel/JL subs unless you just like paying more than needed. Are you in the UK?

 

[familiar1985]

Wow those are some awesome ears you must have. I'd suspect the comparisons themselves likely could be improved upon....but without details of setup/environement hard to know what you're hearing. I'd also pass on the Rel/JL subs unless you just like paying more than needed. Are you in the UK?

No, am in USA. From a sub, I would like a sealed design with the most accurate response with a decent volume capability. I thought the performance of the Rel S812 was quite good in this regard. If there are products that match performance for less money I would definitely chose them over it.

At Magnolia, it is hard to say exactly how they have things setup as it is all kind of built in and they chose sources on a digital pad, room is large (approx 20 x 20 x12) but very dry. I am not making decisions based on very minor differences in sound. I have a bit of audio engineering experience and will likely pick up on things others may not however I am not trying to make decisions based on minor differences here. I only mentioned things that in one way or another would be very obvious to most people, that's why I always bring my girlfriend to see what she hears. Also, not trying to buy snake oil. If I don't hear it doesn't exist.

 

[lovinthehd]

How did you determine Rel or JL had the most accurate sealed subs? You used third party testing? I'd consider a few brands before those two....Funk, Deep Sea Sound, Seaton, JTR....

I'd just think you're hearing level differences or possibly different speakers....hard to know what the setup in a Best Buy/Magnolia is, tho (at least in my limited experience I was not impressed by what the sales folk knew about the gear or setups).

 

[familiar1985]

So it's not about power since the Rotel 120WPC is enough.

And you think it might be the power section of the Denon AVR that is messing up the sound.

It doesn't click with me at all to say, "I'm buying a Denon AVR even though the Denon Amp section sucks".

Like I said, if you think ANY section of the Denon is messing up your sound, why even buy it? Try another AVR or just get separates altogether.

Well, in this regard I am kind of considering the Denon as a processor, I don't see processor options at that price point and would prefer to spend as little as possible on an avr/processor as they get outdated and lose resale value very fast. I will take your advice and consider the Yamaha series (RX1080...2080...3080) if I can find a place to audition them with these speakers, however I honestly don't think it will match stereo performance of the RA1572 which is my primary concern.

 

[familiar1985]

How did you determine Rel or JL had the most accurate sealed subs? You used third party testing? I'd consider a few brands before those two....Funk, Deep Sea Sound, Seaton, JTR....

I'd just think you're hearing level differences or possibly different speakers....hard to know what the setup in a Best Buy/Magnolia is, tho (at least in my limited experience I was not impressed by what the sales folk knew about the gear or setups).

I did not determine they have the most accurate sealed subs. I have done very limited research looking into subs. I am sure you know much more then me as I have not even heard of the brands you mentioned. However, I am limited with what I can audition locally, really tough to buy something in audio online based on peoples opinions that you cannot audition. I really prefer to only buy what I can verify audibly. Any specific 12" to 13" models you would recommend from those manufacturers?

I can assure you that I am not hearing level differences or different speakers. I make sure levels are even audibly prior to ab testing in listening position and walk up to speakers to verify the correct speakers are on (I did not test different speakers). The staff indeed is not the most knowledgeable and I have caught them making mistakes, so I like to double check as much as I can while testing without coming off rude or overly demanding.

 

[lovinthehd]

Demoing subs without proper setup in a store is mostly useless IMO, plus your room has a huge effect on bass frequencies so that demo is only so useful even if well setup, too. I wouldn't even bother "demoing" a sub in most stores (and the brands I mention are internet direct so they aren't found in stores and don't believe any of them offer a 12 or 13 inch model off the top of my head, they would be 15" and up). BestBuy does have SVS subs, and they have some nice sealed 12/13 subs. Is sealed a particular requirement? How big a room is this for? Do you have a box size limitation? Any reason to be considering just one sub?

 

[mazersteven]

I have to say something I know I said I was out but I just have to say something.
I've purchased every speaker that I've owned (and I've purchased many) off of the recommendations and referrals and the positive comments by guys on these forums (S&V, Audioholics, AVS)
The last thing I'm going to do is trust the Clowns and the setups at a Best Buy/Magnolia store. Yeah I auditioned speakers at Best Buy/Magnolia I've also audition at Boutique Specialty H/T stores.
But the information gathered on these audio forums from the Audio Newb to the Sound Engineers, to the Speaker Designers, to the Hobbyist like me is invaluable and incredible.

So if you're dead set on only making your decisions on things you can hear then you're missing out you're missing out huge but that's okay your money you spend it how you like

 

[familiar1985]

Demoing subs without proper setup in a store is mostly useless IMO, plus your room has a huge effect on bass frequencies so that demo is only so useful even if well setup, too. I wouldn't even bother "demoing" a sub in most stores (and the brands I mention are internet direct so they aren't found in stores and don't believe any of them offer a 12 or 13 inch model off the top of my head, they would be 15" and up). BestBuy does have SVS subs, and they have some nice sealed 12/13 subs. Is sealed a particular requirement? How big a room is this for? Do you have a box size limitation? Any reason to be considering just one sub?

The room size is large and open to a large space. Maybe 2500 cubic feet open to much larger space on one wall. I have generally preferred the sound from sealed subs that I have heard. The extension provided by a ported sub is largely unnecessary for music in a living room when comparing very large subs.

Wanted to thank you for your input and give an update. I have decided on a sub, SVS SB3000, should be arriving in a couple of days.

I did some pretty extensive research for a few days into the current product offerings from most of the top companies including all of the mentioned. I chose the SB3000 for a few reasons.

I looked at Audioholics Bassaholic compilation (update 11-11-19). The output is very good, especially in the 50Hz to 125Hz, at roughly 117 +- 1db burst or 113 +-1db sweep. There is very little musical content below 50Hz, and this sub has a nice roll off passed 50 Hz down to 105db burst or 103 db sweep at 31.5hz. I would expect this type of response to fit very well for music. I think a roll off in the low frequencies is good for music especially for non heavily accousticly treated spaces. Above 50Hz the output is matching or besting much larger subs from SVS and other brands (i.e PB4000, PB16 etc...) while having a smaller group delay.

I would expect this sub to be a very good fit for music and the type of listening I do in my space overall. I also prefer the look to some of the other companies. Compared it to the other sealed designs, for me, at $1100 it is well worth it. SVS support also recommended SB3000 over PB3000 or SB4000 for music.

 

[familiar1985]

Also, I cancelled my order for the Denon X3700H and purchased an Arcam 390 instead which I will have to pair with some amplifiers for my mains.

I wanted to give the Denon X3700H another listen as It is possible that they had some settings off or issues connecting in the showroom which may have contributed to it sounding so poorly however given that sound quality is high on my priority list the Arcam made a lot of sense.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also, I cancelled my order for the Denon X3700H and purchased an Arcam 390 instead which I will have to pair with some amplifiers for my mains.

I wanted to give the Denon X3700H another listen as It is possible that they had some settings off or issues connecting in the showroom which may have contributed to it sounding so poorly however given that sound quality is high on my priority list the Arcam made a lot of sense.

Oh, I can tell it’s gonna sound awesome based on the aesthetics alone.

I mean you can tell it’s gonna sound better just sitting there looking pretty and doing absolutely nothing.

 

[lovinthehd]

Also, I cancelled my order for the Denon X3700H and purchased an Arcam 390 instead which I will have to pair with some amplifiers for my mains.

I wanted to give the Denon X3700H another listen as It is possible that they had some settings off or issues connecting in the showroom which may have contributed to it sounding so poorly however given that sound quality is high on my priority list the Arcam made a lot of sense.

What do you mean by "pairing"? Like a red wine with red meat?

 

[mazersteven]

What do you mean by "pairing"? Like a red wine with red meat?

More like Fra Diavolo sauce on Mussels