Axiom M22 vs. Paradigm 20 Speakers

[Mojo]

I need to replace 24 year old ESS HD 1000 speakers that I connect to an Outlaw 1050 receiver (65w/channel). I am looking for a stereo music setup, preferably without a subwoofer (at least for the time being.) I have narrowed it down to the Axiom 22 or the Paradigm Studio 20/40. Unfortunately, I cannot preview the Axioms without ordering them, and custom finish orders are not fully refundable if the speakers are returned. (I may just have to go with a stock cabinet.)

I spent over an hour this afternoon doing an A/B comparison of the Paradigm Studio 20 and 40 speakers and I have a very good impression of the differences between the two models. Has anyone by chance had experience listening to the Axioms and the Studio 20?

The main comment/complaint that I read about the Axioms is their lack of bass compared with other (usually more expensive) bookshelf speakers. But if they have bass comparable to the Studio 20 then I think that I could easily live with it when taking into account the significant price differential ($460 vs. $800 retail).

Some other threads on this forum have given me the impression that some dealers will agree to selling at a discount price, as much as 15%. I hadn't thought of asking for a discount--- is this common?

 

[Tex-amp]

In my personal opinion the M22 doesn't compete well with the Studio 20. Try Ascend Acoustics 170SE. A speaker I haven't heard but have been hearing good things about is the Usher S-520.

 

[peko]

Has anyone by chance had experience listening to the Axioms and the Studio 20?

I went from the Axiom 22 to the Studio 20 v.3 (which I've since sold as well -- chronic upgraditis). I thought the Axiom's a good, fairly inexpensive HT speaker, but particularly for music, the Studio 20 sounded smoother overall, for lack of a better description. Everything -- highs, mids, bass, etc. -- just integrated better, which made the 20 sound much more "musical." I can't really address the bass difference btw the Axiom and 20s; I used both with the same sub.

Everyone's tastes differ, but I really liked the Studio 20s. I thought they were noticeably better than the Axioms.

 

[littleb]

I don't think you would want to run the Axiom M22s without a sub. From what I have heard, the M3s would be a better choice if your planning that. If it were me, I'd be looking for something with some low end, if I was going subless. The s40s would surely win that war.

 

[billy p]

Wow

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/faceoff3_a.php

Here is a good article comparing the m22 to other high end bookshelf.
Some people really have it in for axiom!! Oh and look ascend not even mentioned!!

 

[GreenJelly]

Simple answer to this question is to take the speakers out on a trial basis. Should just be a week. Put them in your room, power them up, and decide for yourself.

Mike

PS I am not impressed by Paradigm. I listened to them for a good hour with a sales man. He was real nice, and I felt bad when I had to tell him that I wasnt impressed and then walked out the door. My uncle also owns a 5.1 surround sound system from Paradigm, and I am also equally unimpressed.

This comes to my original statement however... My ears are different then yours, and in all my compairisons, very few were actually in the place I was going to play them in. I also must say that even though I dont like the Paradigm speakers... MANY PEOPLE DO!

I recommend you read this thread
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4004

 

[Tex-amp]

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/faceoff3_a.php

Here is a good article comparing the m22 to other high end bookshelf.
Some people really have it in for axiom!! Oh and look ascend not even mentioned!!

Well, ask Audioholics why they haven't reviewed Ascend. Do you want them to comment on a speaker they haven't reviewed?

 

[davee70]

I have a pair of the M3s and although the bass response is impressive for such a small speaker, it is way too bright for my ears. I have to turn the treble down almost all the way on the Onkyo TX-866 receiver I'm using them with (up to -10dB at 10 kHz). It is very good with the spoken word (TV programming) and fine for very "soft" music tonally which can stand the prominent lift at the high end. (For example, I find I enjoy Dylan's new album Modern Times on the M3s, though his music is as much about the words as it is the music and I still have to cut the high frequencies.) The measurements I have seen on the M3s confirm the upward tilt (above 10 kHz). See for example http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m3ti/.

I have to say I feel the same way about the Paradigms as the other poster. When I was looking for a pair of floorstanders I spent a fair amount of time at one dealer listening to the Studio 100s only to end up with the Energy Veritas 2.3i's at another dealer. It had nothing to do with the bass, which I thought compared very favorably. I listened to a variety of music from classical to rock and found the midrange to be a bit too subdued for me on the 100s. I thought the more forward midrange of the 2.3i's made for a more lively and lifelike presentation. When I'm in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers again, those are the kind of things I've learned that I'm sure I'll consider. And if you're like me you will eventually want to have a good sub anyway, no matter what. From my experience (which is mainly limited to music) it's hard for even a good pair of floorstanders much less a bookshelf to compete with what a good sub can do for you.

 

[sahihai]

Try M3 instead of M22

Mojo,
I am currently auditioning the M3 and M22. I have never listened to Paradigms. I think the M22 are very crisp and detailed, but they are very bright. If you requirement is bookshelf (from what it looks like) then I would ask you to test M3 instead of M22. The M3 is way better in handling the bass than M22. Its warmer than M22. Personally I feel both of them require a Sub. But if Sub is not in scope yet, then I would suggest M3 than M22.

 

[jasoneuc]

Wow - lots of anti-Axiom talk on the boards lately.

Personally, I love my Axiom M50's, and when I was looking at new front speakers I wanted to keep them below about $700 (which the M50's are by ordering factory outlet).

If you are set on a bookshelf style speaker, definitely consider the M22's and the M3's. You can order a set of vinyl-covered models to test them, and if you want to order you can send them back and get the VaSSallos (real wood).

The Studio 20 is another good speaker, though they aren't as good as the sadly departed Active Studio 20's. The Active 20's made my jaw drop when I heard them many years ago.

Another bookshelf to consider is the drop-dead gorgeous Rocket RS250.


A set of RS250's and a UFW10 would make an amazing set of good-lookers.

Just another route to consider.

And don't trust our opinions - trust your ears.

 

[GreenJelly]

I listened to a variety of music from classical to rock and found the midrange to be a bit too subdued for me on the 100s.

Exactly what I thought of the Paradigm. Paradigm are Very heavy on base, in the higher end speakers. But that is all I could say that I liked about them.

 

[Mojo]

I have read everything that I could find here related to Axiom and Paradigm speakers, including forum posts gleaned via the search function (around 15-20 threads) and the Audioholic reviews/faceoff article. I have also read reviews/forums at other Web sites as well as searched the Outlaw Audio forum; I first learned about Axiom speakers from a tech at Outlaw.

I have not found a direct comparison between the 20s and M22s, I was hoping that someone had actually heard both speakers. (Thanks Peko!) The best way is to audition them, but I live in a small town with a very limited selection; a local furniture "superstore" carries Paradigm and B&W, which surprised me when it came up after I plugged-in my zip code at the Paradigm Web site. Otherwise it is Circuit City time...

Since we were considering ordering wood veneer cabinets, returning unsatisfactory speakers would mean a loss of $150-$200 since custom charges are not refunded by Axiom. If I go ahead and order stock speakers just to audition them (assuming that Axiom would go for it...) or actually order the custom speakers I want to be reasonably sure that I will like them.

I am not an audiophile; the fact that I have been happy for over twenty years with my ancient ESS speakers should tell you something... And when I auditioned the Paradigms yesterday I was impressed with both speakers, particularly how well the 20s held-up against the 40s (I used "At The Edge"/Mickey Hart, "Talking Timbuktu"/Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder and "Home"/Dixie Chicks for my audition CDs). At first I preferred the 20s, then I began to lean toward the 40s when I considered the size of my living room and speaker placement. But I would be happy with either speaker.

I had the salesperson turn-on a Paradigm subwoofer (sorry... I don't know the model but it retails for just under $400) and it actually detracted from the music because it "thumped" until he turned it waaay down; it apparently hasn't been set-up properly. (Even my little Bose subwoofer connected to my iMac doesn't "thump" unless I turn the bass up all the way and crank the volume to unlistenable levels.) So I didn't have the best opportunity to hear what a subwoofer might add to the kind of music I used; so much for shopping for speakers in a furniture store!

Space is a bit tight for a subwoofer and we don't watch movies at home. Our living room is approximately 18 x 20 and has over-stuffed couches, carpeting (to be replaced by wood) but no drapes. We listen to a wide-range of music (Thank Gawd for the Internet!), but just a little classical and no rap/current pop stuff, mainly at low-to-moderate volume levels; the room layout requires that the speakers be 15' feet apart and we sit 9-11' away from the speakers.

In the end, listening is the only way to choose speakers because they are the most subjectively critical component in an audio system, at least to "average" folks. I'll have to leave the more arcane aspects of stereo component design to others... But I greatly appreciate both the online reviews and opinions of the folks who take the time to post on this and other forums.

 

[GreenJelly]

I have read everything that I could find here related to Axiom and Paradigm speakers, including forum posts gleaned via the search function (around 15-20 threads) and the Audioholic reviews/faceoff article. I have also read reviews/forums at other Web sites as well as searched the Outlaw Audio forum; I first learned about Axiom speakers from a tech at Outlaw.

I have not found a direct comparison between the 20s and M22s, I was hoping that someone had actually heard both speakers. (Thanks Peko!) The best way is to audition them, but I live in a small town with a very limited selection; a local furniture "superstore" carries Paradigm and BW, which surprised me when it came up after I plugged-in my zip code at the Paradigm Web site. Otherwise it is Circuit City time...

Since we were considering ordering wood veneer cabinets, returning unsatisfactory speakers would mean a loss of $150-$200 since custom charges are not refunded by Axiom. If I go ahead and order stock speakers just to audition them (assuming that Axiom would go for it...) or actually order the custom speakers I want to be reasonably sure that I will like them.

I am not an audiophile; the fact that I have been happy for over twenty years with my ancient ESS speakers should tell you something... And when I auditioned the Paradigms yesterday I was impressed with both speakers, particularly how well the 20s held-up against the 40s (I used "At The Edge"/Mickey Hart, "Talking Timbuktu"/Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder and "Home"/Dixie Chicks for my audition CDs). At first I preferred the 20s, then I began to lean toward the 40s when I considered the size of my living room and speaker placement. But I would be happy with either speaker.

I had the salesperson turn-on a Paradigm subwoofer (sorry... I don't know the model but it retails for just under $400) and it actually detracted from the music because it "thumped" until he turned it waaay down; it apparently hasn't been set-up properly. (Even my little Bose subwoofer connected to my iMac doesn't "thump" unless I turn the bass up all the way and crank the volume to unlistenable levels.) So I didn't have the best opportunity to hear what a subwoofer might add to the kind of music I used; so much for shopping for speakers in a furniture store!

Space is a bit tight for a subwoofer and we don't watch movies at home. Our living room is approximately 18 x 20 and has over-stuffed couches, carpeting (to be replaced by wood) but no drapes. We listen to a wide-range of music (Thank Gawd for the Internet!), but just a little classical and no rap/current pop stuff, mainly at low-to-moderate volume levels; the room layout requires that the speakers be 15' feet apart and we sit 9-11' away from the speakers.

In the end, listening is the only way to choose speakers because they are the most subjectively critical component in an audio system, at least to "average" folks. I'll have to leave the more arcane aspects of stereo component design to others... But I greatly appreciate both the online reviews and opinions of the folks who take the time to post on this and other forums.

I hope you mean B&W, and if thats the case, then your problem is solved... just see if you can home audition them... The reason I say this, is because its VERY hard to find someone talk bad about the 600 series speakers. They are amazing, and though you can find fault with them, there is allot less to point out then their competitors. Though there are some.

Mike

 

[Mojo]

It is B&W and I edited my post; thanks for the heads-up.

 

[GreenJelly]

B&W would be on my top of the list for speakers under 1K...

Over that, and the list becomes more interesting.

The only problem with B&W speakers is that no one sells used ones, and when they do, they disapear REALLY quick, at high prices. This speaks to the demand of these speakers.

They are British as with Thiels. The higher end equipement competes with companies that are also VERY good, and they tend to only improve on the mids to lows, until you reach deap in your pocket.

Again, The subwoofers are not the best, and I would recommend that you go with another company. They are good, but some companies produce amazing. I am not sure of which subs are GREAT, because I just bought a B&W. Their are also Reasonably sized Sub enclosures with incredible ability. The cones streach way back to produce HUGE waves, with very little space.

Again, ask someone else about these, or get your own opinion.

 

[littleb]

B&W would be on my top of the list for speakers under 1K...

Actually, I do disagree with this statement. I was so disappointed with the ones I had that the experience forced me to look elsewhere. Elsewhere ended up being a pair of Axiom M22s. My short, and I do mean short, in home audition with the B&W 602s3 bookshelves with my trusty Yamaha HTR-5280 AVR was the most disappointing audition I've ever had with any product ever. I've never received an adequate reply to why these sounded so bad. I even emailed B&W and their reply was very unsatisfactory. So much for customer service.

 

[Mojo]

Thanks for the replies. I have removed Axioms from my list because from what I have read they would not meet my expectations. I am now considering the Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE Mini-Tower Monitor and Boston Acoustics VR3 as lower-cost alternatives to the Paradigm Signature speakers.

 

[Tex-amp]

The only problem with B&W speakers is that no one sells used ones, and when they do, they disapear REALLY quick, at high prices. This speaks to the demand of these speakers.

You must not be looking in the right place for used B&W. Try here.

I think the B&W 600 series has plenty of competition at it's price point.

 

[PatrickBateman]

I have heard all three speakers (Axiom M22, Ascend 170SE, and Paradigm Studio 20).

Mr. Axiom, Mr. Ascend,
you are no Studio 20


...and I do not own any of them

 

[newtoitall]

Patrick,

What did you hear in the studio 20 that the Axioms or Ascends didn't provide?
I am in the process of trialing the Axiom M22s and the Ascend CMT340s, Both very different speakers. I am considering trying Energy RC-LCRs and also studio 20s to give me a better variety to base my choice on.

Frank