Axiom Audio Epic 80...not too great for stereo.

[TABCON]

As you can see in my list of equip. below, I have the Axiom 80/500 set up. It is astonishing for DVD movies, but very mediocre at best for stereo CD's.
The crisp highs, tight mid-range and taught bass are just not there. The bass is muddy, there are not highs to speak of and the mid range seems to rule the roost.

Granted, I have no idea how to set up the 4806 for CD listening, but man i thought the stereo sound would be much better on this system.

Can anyone help with my set up?

Tabcon

 

[corey]

Are you sure that you ran your Denon's auto setup correctly? Might be worthwhile to try that again, after reading the Denon manual very carefully.

If you want to do it by hand, set all your speakers to small, by pass your sub's cross-over & set the Denon's cross over to 80 hz. Set your tone controls to flat. Get a SPL meter & set the levels of all your speakers. Make sure all your speakers are in phase - many THX DVD's have a setup section that will help you with this. Put your Denon in Dolby PLII mode, confirm that PLII mode is using the speaker levels you set (& the flat tone controls), & try a stero CD.

The above is not all there is to system optimization by a long shot, but it should get you in the ball park. If it doesn't, your problem is most likely in your speaker positioning or room acoustics.

 

[Nick250]

I suggest plan B, do it by hand as corey suggested. I have been trying to get my 3806 based system setup properly with the Audyssey Auto EQ, and at this point it seems great at above 80Hz, but crossovers, large/small settings makes little sense and it's hard to tweak because the manual is horrible. With the information I have so far I would say Audyssey is unusable because of the <80Hz problem. With proper documentation I think Audyssey could be a winner, but there is no way to tell since the aforementioned documentation does not exist anyplace I can find.

Nick

 

[Audioholics]

You may also want to experiment with toe-in. I found that toeing in the Axioms just slightly was the best solution. Also note your listening distance to the speakers versus how wide apart they are... Some guidelines "from the horse's mouth":

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/hometheaterspeakerlayout.php

 

[TABCON]

I don't think it's the room, so I'll do the setup and see what happens.
I'm going to do it by the book with the microphone setup and all.
Also, I have the speakers toed in slightly and it does seem to help.

Thanks!

Tabcon

 

[gene]

The problem is likely poor setup.

Step 1: Turn off all Auto EQ's and bypass all tone controls and GEQ's
Step 2: Follow our guidelines for subwoofer placement
Step 3: Set all speakers to small and adjust xover to 80Hz
Step 4: Calibrate levels via internal test tones and bump sub level up around 5 dB or so - use C weighted on SPL meter
Step 5: experiment with toe in as Clint suggested, also experiment with moving the primary listening seats
Step 6: repeat step 4.

Some Notes:
Make sure you have proper level calibration for all modes of operation. Denon allows for independent level calibration for stereo, and multi channel sources and for each input! I haven't played with the 4806 but if its like the 5805, it may even allow for separate bass management settings for stereo mode vs multi channel. Consult your manual and/or dealer.

If you have tile floors, glass doors and a listening room that opens to other rooms in the house, this needs to be addressed.

Get throw rugs, insulated curtains, apply a minimimal amount of absorption in your room (check our Acoustics section of our site for guidelines). An open arcitecture room syle is terrible for bass and there are very few options for correcting this. You may also wish to get a second subwoofer to help provide a more constant and smooth bass response to all listening areas.

Lack of highs on an Axiom system to me implies:
blown tweeters
bad auto eq results
direct soundfield of speaker blocked by an object such as a couch, lamp, etc.


Take greater care in your setup and when in doubt, contact the manufacturer and/or higher a qualified installer.

 

[jcPanny]

2 channel listening

For 2 channel CDs, try out the "Pure Direct" mode on your receiver. It should take the EQ, crossovers, and sub out of the equation and the M80's should do fine without a sub for music. This mode on many receivers also shuts down the video circuity and front display to help lower the noise floor.

 

[billy p]

What is the differance between direct and pure direct???:

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I don't think it's the room, so I'll do the setup and see what happens.
I'm going to do it by the book with the microphone setup and all.
Also, I have the speakers toed in slightly and it does seem to help.

Thanks!

Tabcon

If you've followed Gene's recommendations and aren't satisifed, here's what I would do:

Try turning all your equilization/tone controls off, and set your towers to large. Set the subwoofer to "no." The Denon should allow all frequencies to your towers. Set the Denon to Direct or Pure Direct mode. Is there still lack of highs/muddy bass? Try Stereo mode, and turn on the tone controls. Raise the treble to your liking. Does that help?

If not, and you don't have your speakers in corners or anything blocking the midranges/tweeters to your seated position, then go into the on screen display and start experimenting with the graphic eq. Turn on the tone controls, and bump the treble up a few dB's. Try cutting the mid bass frequencies in the graphic eq, and boosting some of the 2000-8000Hz frequencies.

Denon AVR's (at least mine) are pretty flat out of the box. It took me a few months to really tweak it to get that perfect sound. With time, you can get that unit to sound excellent with any source.

As Clint said, toe in (or out) will drastically change the sound of the speakers. Getting them closer (or further) from a wall or corner will also effect the bass output.

I prefer my cd's with towers only. You may prefer them with your subwoofer. If so, at least you'll have the towers tweaked for optimal mids and highs - then you can use the bass management by turning on the sub and selecting a crossover point.

 

[TABCON]

Okay, I used the 'auto' setup and it set all the speakers to large except the center and it didn't find the LR surround. So I scrapped that, and did what Gene and others recommended. Set the delay on all speakers, no EQ, xover set to 80 and I bumped the sub to 5. Now, the system seems a little too bright and the bass is not as strong as it used to be. Stereo sounds a bit better but is also very bright.

I also discovered that the Axiom 500 has a deep hum in it if the xover is set to anything but 40. Weird.

Any thoughts?

Tabcon

 

[billy p]

I think Gene stated switch all speaker to small and set crossover at 80Hz.Then recalibrate your system?

PS: Surround mode should appear on next selection after sub mode?

 

[speakerman39]

As you can see in my list of equip. below, I have the Axiom 80/500 set up. It is astonishing for DVD movies, but very mediocre at best for stereo CD's.
The crisp highs, tight mid-range and taught bass are just not there. The bass is muddy, there are not highs to speak of and the mid range seems to rule the roost.

Granted, I have no idea how to set up the 4806 for CD listening, but man i thought the stereo sound would be much better on this system.

Can anyone help with my set up?

Tabcon

I just recently got the chance to listen to a full Axiom Epic 80/500 set-up and I must say I was and still am quite impressed. The system was stellar for music-just very detailed and articulate sounding and even better for home theater. Got the chance to watch some of the Master and Commander open fighting scene and it was absolutely breath-taking. Made me feel as if I were right there on the ship. It sounds like there might be an issue w/the set-up somwhere. Good luck I am sure you will get it straightened out. The people here are very helpful and are quite knowledgeable.

 

[Tom Andry]

I also discovered that the Axiom 500 has a deep hum in it if the xover is set to anything but 40. Weird.

You might have the 60hz hum. Did you remove the ground screw as suggested in the instructions?

 

[mike c]

when I had the axiom hum, removing or loosening the ground screw did not help for ME.

mine was caused by the proximity of the sub preout interconnect with the receiver speaker binding posts. but after mixing and matching coaxial cables, it disappeared by itself.

 

[TABCON]

Wow, you guys really know your stuff. Insofar as the ground screw for the sub, exactly what are you talking about, the ground screw on the electrical outlet itself? Also, I'm getting ready to run the Richard Gray power connect line to the sub directly from the conditioner, so the outlet will be eliminated soon. If this does not work, I'll contact Axiom. They are great folks to deal with.

I don't have any equipment to calibrate my speakers as Gene recommends. I'd be happy to go and get it though. What would I need exactly?

Tabcon

 

[Nick250]

I don't have any equipment to calibrate my speakers as Gene recommends. I'd be happy to go and get it though. What would I need exactly?Tabcon

Sound meter from Radio Shack, ~ $50 or so.

Nick

 

[cyberbri]

Getting Avia would help as well. It has a wonderful regiment of test tones for speaker/sub setup, calibration, and evaluation. It also has test patterns for tweaking your video display.

Once you get through all of the setup and have that done properly, any poor sound issues are going to be due to the room and/or your personal tastes versus the sound of the speakers. Ie., if the speakers are close to walls or glass, etc., you will have a lot of sound reflecting and blurring the sound. How are they positioned? Are the (front) speakers on an arc, equidistant to the LP (all 3?), equilateral triangle between left/right and LP?

Toe the speakers in more and/or move them further from the walls -- although the best thing is to treat trouble spots with acoustic panels, which are pretty affordable considering the huge improvement in sound quality they will give you. If the floor isn't carpet, but bare tile, wood, etc., you need to have rugs and other coverings to help dampen reflections. For muddy bass, after setup issues, placement and room interaction is usually at fault. If the mains are running Large/full-range, set them to small and let the sub handle all the bass. The sub can be moved around for optimal sound (flattest response, which can be tested with frequency sweeps on Avia, etc.), and this lets you keep the speakers in the spot for optimal sound, soundstage and imaging.

Your room is your biggest speaker, because it greatly affects what the sound sounds like by the time it reaches your ear - sound bounces around all the walls and combines/cancels out and reaches your ears at different times. I have a window at the first reflection point on the right side, and opening it changes the sound because sound goes outside rather than being bounced back off the glass. That's where I will be putting an acoustic panel (about $60 each) pretty shortly here.

 

[Nick250]

Great post Cyberbri. Kudos. Consider keeping it and posting it again as the need arises.

Nick

 

[cyberbri]

Thanks. I have a number of write-ups (sub calibration, etc.) that I should probably put on a blog so I can copy/paste. I actually did something similar with this for calibration.

 

[TABCON]

Thank you all. I never could have done it without you (and now I want to thank all the little people...lol).

The system is awesome now.

I did a combination of things:

1. Auto setup was no good for me, so I did it the old fashion way, by hand and by ear. Toed in the speakers and moved them a little further from the walls, relocated the sub, set all the front speakers to large and the rear surrounds to small, set the the xover to 80hz on the Denon and 80 on the sub. I have not used a sound meter yet but it sounds damn good now with cd's and incredible with the dolby movies.

I watched King Kong last night and peed my pants!

2. I removed the grounding screw on the sub and changed the video hdmi cables to an expensive set of monster cables thus eliminating the 60 Hz hum completely. Nice hdmi's really do make a dif.

I'd love to have all of you over to watch a movie some time.

Tanks again!

Tabcon