AVS Post

[croseiv]

Dude was obviously PO'd.

 

[Matt34]

I love these guys that go on a crusade to save everyone from the evilness of the internet. They want to make it out like the "Buy it Now" links are forcing people to buy the products. If you can't differentiate between subjective and objective reviews and form your own opinion then who really is at fault?

What's really funny is Curtis; one of the biggest fanboies on AVS regardless of brand, is talking about bias. Hello kettle, meet pot.

....and I wouldn't trade this forum over any other I've been on.

 

[Adam]

They want to make it out like the "Buy it Now" links are forcing people to buy the products.

You mean that they DON'T?!? Oh, man. That would have been good to know a while ago. Now I'm already conditioned to it. I see those buttons, the third eyelid closes in preparation for the buying frenzy, and I just started click - click - clicking my way to new gear.

 

[gene]

What's really funny is Curtis; one of the biggest fanboies on AVS regardless of brand, is talking about bias. Hello kettle, meet pot.

that Curtis guy has been on a vendetta against us for nearly 2 years on Ascends own forum. I find it interesting that as soon as someone on AVS accused him as being an employee of Ascends, the owner of Ascends instantly chimed in.

Its bizzare actually since we already conducted a favorable review for Ascends and I've requested review samples since then on several occasions but haven't been able to set that up with them yet.

 

[gus6464]

that Curtis guy has been on a vendetta against us for nearly 2 years on Ascends own forum. I find it interesting that as soon as someone on AVS accused him as being an employee of Ascends, the owner of Ascends instantly chimed in. Hmm

Its bizzare actually since we already conducted a favorable review for Ascends and I've requested review samples since then on several occasions but haven't been able to set that up with them yet.

The reason for that was because you still pointed out the Sierra's flaws while every other publication gave them a perfect review. We got into it at AVS when you guys did the bookshelf shootout with all the different speakers and you said that the Dali Mentor 1 was in it's own league (couldn't that be valid since the speaker cost over 2x what the Ascends and other cost?). Anyway he began his whole schpeal about how the Ascends were more accurate and blah, blah, blah and would not let it go. He even said that the flaws you guys gave the Sierra were not really flaws. He then went on and accused me of being a Dali fanboy when I pretty much talk about every speaker under the sun, including ones he has never even heard of but it was too late since soon after the AVS Ascend police arrived with the owner of the company.

BTW that led to the whole Revel M22 debate which soon became a whole B&M vs ID fiasco until thread was locked. I mean I can understand that ID in some cases will offer a better value than B&M. But that doesn't mean they will best every freaking speaker including more expensive ones.

God forbid a $2000 Revel is a better designed speaker than the $900 Sierra.

 

[gene]

The reason for that was because you still pointed out the Sierra's flaws while every other publication gave them a perfect review. We got into it at AVS when you guys did the bookshelf shootout with all the different speakers and you said that the Dali Mentor 1 was in it's own league (couldn't that be valid since the speaker cost over 2x what the Ascends and other cost?). Anyway he began his whole schpeal about how the Ascends were more accurate and blah, blah, blah and would not let it go. He even said that the flaws you guys gave the Sierra were not really flaws. He then went on and accused me of being a Dali fanboy when I pretty much talk about every speaker under the sun, including ones he has never even heard of but it was too late since soon after the AVS Ascend police arrived with the owner of the company.

BTW that led to the whole Revel M22 debate which soon became a whole B&M vs ID fiasco until thread was locked. I mean I can understand that ID in some cases will offer a better value than B&M. But that doesn't mean they will best every freaking speaker including more expensive ones.

God forbid a $2000 Revel is a better designed speaker than the $900 Sierra.

Ah that makes sense. What perplexed me about the Dali's is they sounded so incredibly open and airy but were a bit too hot at top as you could see in my formal review and measurements:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/dali-mentor-1-bookshelf-loudspeaker-review

Despite that, all of the people at our face off, except me, preferred the Dali's over all of the other speakers. Hey at the end of the day its all a matter of taste and preference aside from how they measure. There were some recordings where I really dug these speakers and others that the coloration just drove me nuts. Regardless of my preferences, these are great speakers but just not for everyone as is the case with any speaker system which is why the end user needs to determine how they like them, NOT a reviewer!

Sadly Dali wasn't happy with my "bright" comments which is why they don't even reference my review on their website. Companies are funny, most don't want to hear negative comments in reviews. People are funny, they claim they want negative reviews but when you're too negative, the owners and fan boys get pissed off. We learned this years ago with my review of the Monitor Audio Silver 5i's and the Sunfire Theater Grand III. Heck people even got upset at Tom's aesthetic comments on the Emotiva speakers which reviewed quite favorably.

Maybe we should just post press release style reviews like this and avoid the headaches:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/reviewing-home-theater-reviews

 

[gus6464]

Ah that makes sense. What perplexed me about the Dali's is they sounded so incredibly open and airy but were a bit too hot at top as you could see in my formal review and measurements:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/dali-mentor-1-bookshelf-loudspeaker-review

Despite that, all of the people at our face off, except me, preferred the Dali's over all of the other speakers. Hey at the end of the day its all a matter of taste and preference aside from how they measure. There were some recordings where I really dug these speakers and others that the coloration just drove me nuts. Regardless of my preferences, these are great speakers but just not for everyone as is the case with any speaker system which is why the end user needs to determine how they like them, NOT a reviewer!

Sadly Dali wasn't happy with my "bright" comments which is why they don't even reference my review on their website. Companies are funny, most don't want to hear negative comments in reviews. People are funny, they claim they want negative reviews but when you're too negative, the owners and fan boys get pissed off. We learned this years ago with my review of the Monitor Audio Silver 5i's and the Sunfire Theater Grand III. Heck people even got upset at Tom's aesthetic comments on the Emotiva speakers which reviewed quite favorably.

Maybe we should just post press release style reviews like this and avoid the headaches:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/reviewing-home-theater-reviews

I have to toe-out my Ikon 2's to tame the tweeter as they can get very bright past 10KHz. With that being said I still love the detail and separation they put out when compared to speakers in the same bracket and that is why I have a pair.

It's funny how it's a known fact that every speaker manufacturer like to make their speakers sound a different way. But god forbid you tell a person who likes Type A sound that you don't care for that sound, and prefer Type B instead, all hell breaks loose!!

 

[Seth V]

I think Gene and staff are doing an excellent job! And as many here have mentioned, how many other sites will give such detailed test results and lab measurements? I find Gene's reviews to be very thorough that go through every facet of a product. I find this site to be in invaluable resource.

And you can count me in as well for an Audioholics membership once they become available.



Seth

 

[mazersteven]

I didn't get to chime back in. The thread has been locked.

I wanted to know who "the same 3-4 posters pushing the SVS MTS speakers." posted by jnickrand. Post #48

I thought I was the only one that recommended the MTS speakers.

 

[gus6464]

I didn't get to chime back in. The thread has been locked.

I wanted to know who "the same 3-4 posters pushing the SVS MTS speakers." posted by jnickrand. Post #48

I thought I was the only one that recommended the MTS speakers.

You are, lol

 

[davidtwotrees]

I'm a somewhat infrequent poster, but for what it is worth, my time on this site is well spent. The reviews are just fine in my book. I like the staff, as well as the rank and file membership. This site had been a big part in helping me gain knowledge enough to run a rig that makes me smile every time I turn it on. Keep up the good work.
David of the Two Trees

 

[silversurfer]

Notice how cschang "ascend defender" also dislikes audioholics as well. He is one of the main reasons I stopped posting at AVS and his BS. Could it be that audioholics is one of the few sites that doesn't promote ascend heavily? The last straw with him was when he was trying to pit up the Sierra against the Revel M22 and all he kept on saying was that Soundstage measures speakers in a way that hurts the Sierra but helps the Revel. I mean who seriously believes that he doesn't get paid by ascend to run their forum and promote their speakers?

FWIW, I have met Curtis. I went to his house to listen to his then CMT-340SE's, and ended up buying a pair for myself. He may have a bias toward Ascend, but I don't think he gets paid. He did mention that he wouldn't mind working in the industry, but would need to take a huge pay cut.

I also remember the thread you are referring to. Curtis' point was the Soundstage measurements do not take into account the output from rear mounted ports. In an anechoic chamber, there are no reflections, so if you only measure from the front as Soundstage does, you will not get an accurate bass measurement with any rear ported speaker. So if the speaker is sealed or front ported, actual bass response will be reflected more accurately. You can actually look at their measurements and see how this is true. I didn't read it as though the Sierras were better than the Revels.

I post on this forum because there is less noise here and most take the high road. However, that post over there was in bad taste, but I also feel this thread(here on Audioholics) is in the mold of AVS, and I wish it wasn't.

peace out!

 

[gus6464]

FWIW, I have met Curtis. I went to his house to listen to his then CMT-340SE's, and ended up buying a pair for myself. He may have a bias toward Ascend, but I don't think he gets paid. He did mention that he wouldn't mind working in the industry, but would need to take a huge pay cut.

I also remember the thread you are referring to. Curtis' point was the Soundstage measurements do not take into account the output from rear mounted ports. In an anechoic chamber, there are no reflections, so if you only measure from the front as Soundstage does, you will not get an accurate bass measurement with any rear ported speaker. So if the speaker is sealed or front ported, actual bass response will be reflected more accurately. You can actually look at their measurements and see how this is true. I didn't read it as though the Sierras were better than the Revels.

I post on this forum because there is less noise here and most take the high road. However, that post over there was in bad taste, but I also feel this thread(here on Audioholics) is in the mold of AVS, and I wish it wasn't.

peace out!

It's strange how every time cschang mentions that fact that he doesn't get paid by Ascend, the owner of Ascend comes in right behind him to reiterate that.

Also the thread went farther than that about the soundstage measurements. He and Alimentall were going at it back and forth about which speaker was better designed. Also I don't think that port issue is going to affect the entire FR graph now is it?

 

[gene]

Also I don't think that port issue is going to affect the entire FR graph now is it?

bass measurements in anechoic chambers arent accurate unless of course if the chamber is over 60ft in length which they typically aren't. Its a good idea to ignore the bass below 80Hz or so or if the manufacturer is savvy enough they will develop a correction algorithm to compare and overlay to a 4pi space like a pole. That being said, if both speakers are measured in the chamber under identical test conditions, then ported or not ported is irrelivant above the 80Hz region as I stated before.

check out this article we did for Axiom that discusses this:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/on-location-articles/audioholics-on-location-3-axiom-audio

 

[silversurfer]

It's strange how every time cschang mentions that fact that he doesn't get paid by Ascend, the owner of Ascend comes in right behind him to reiterate that.

Also the thread went farther than that about the soundstage measurements. He and Alimentall were going at it back and forth about which speaker was better designed. Also I don't think that port issue is going to affect the entire FR graph now is it?

gus, I know you do not like the guy, and every time his name is mentioned, you see red. I have read it here more than once. I won't argue your opinions about him. But just like all biases, I think it affects how you read what he posts. Plain and simple, you do not like him, and anything that can fuel that fire, you will see it that way.

The port issue will not affect the whole graph at all, just the bass portion. From what I can remember, that was the only issue worth anything. Alimental himself even said he likes to argue with ID fanboys, just for the sake of argueing, even if what he says is true or not. If you want to side with Alimental, I don't think anyone that reads that forum often will deny that he is very opinionated. At best, if you flat out asked Curtis and all his bias what was better, the M22 or the Sierra, I bet he would say it is a matter of preferences. I did something like that when I was at his place with competing speaker, and he said "listen for yourself, don't ask me". I recently saw a post where he said he would take the Tiny Dancer over his Sierras. That is in the same price ballpark of the Revels, right?

Anyways, my point was not to argue about "cschang", or anythingelse. It was to give an opinion of someone that I have met, and to give my opinion of the same thread you read.

Sorry, I didn't mean my post to be something out of AVS.

 

[armaraas]

Dang, and the thread got locked before I had a chance to post about EMP actually having their own website to sell their speakers, so they're not an AH exclusive- http://www.emptek.com/index.html

As a Hot Deal side note, they also sell some clearanced RBH stuff there too...

 

[silversurfer]

bass measurements in anechoic chambers arent accurate unless of course if the chamber is over 60ft in length which they typically aren't. Its a good idea to ignore the bass below 80Hz or so or if the manufacturer is savvy enough they will develop a correction algorithm to compare and overlay to a 4pi space like a pole. That being said, if both speakers are measured in the chamber under identical test conditions, then ported or not ported is irrelivant above the 80Hz region as I stated before.

check out this article we did for Axiom that discusses this:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/on-location-articles/audioholics-on-location-3-axiom-audio

Gene, what about Stereophile's methodology?

 

[gus6464]

So which speaker looks best on paper? Omit anything below 80Hz.

BTW both speakers are rear ported.

 

[gene]

Gene, what about Stereophile's methodology?

It's been awhile since I looked at Stereophile but from what I could remember, they do summed nearfield responses of the speaker and also sum in the port contribution. This is tricky and one must be careful to properly scale driver response and measuring a tweet nearfield isn't always very accurate so you have to increase the distance and offset the additive SPL. I often do this in my reviews as well, but I like to also see 1-2 meter inroom response as most speakers behave similarily above the 300Hz small room transistion region to how they would measure anechoically. Its a lot easier if one has anechoic chamber access but most aren't so fortunate.

Dang, and the thread got locked before I had a chance to post about EMP actually having their own website to sell their speakers, so they're not an AH exclusive- http://www.emptek.com/index.html

Yes that is true and I am not sure where that accusation came from either. Heck I wish RBH would sell their entire product line online but many of their brick and mortar dealers would wine like babies and threaten to drop their products as a result. This is a screwd business and many fear the internet unfortunately.

So which speaker looks best on paper? Omit anything below 80Hz.


BTW both speakers are rear ported.

The bottom speaker looks more linear from that one measurement but no credible reviewer/consumer should ever base a speakers performance on a single measurement. Its pretty easy to make a speaker that measures flat on axis but sounds aweful in real life. Interpreting speaker measurements (assuming those said measurements are even relavent to performance) is tricky business.

 

[gus6464]

Doesn't stereophile also stitch their FR graphs together? Don't they measure small ranges and glue them together so to speak?