AVR verses separates with a twist.

3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Please do not turn this thread into which sounds better as we all have our camps that we belong to and this topic has been beaten to death. What I'm ultimately after is cost of manufacturer of these units, where the bulk of the money is spent on the units, and the asking MSRP price of the finished product. A good place to start is with the bill of materials (bom) . I imagine this cost of the bom is a closely guarded secret with the manufacturers verses asking MSRP. Getting any information is moat likely going to be tough. I'm hoping that this thread will be able to shed some light on the asking prices of our subjects in the topic line.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I expect you are right about how difficult it will be to get reliable numbers.
You may be able to get what type of % mark-up a place like Best Buy typically adds to the price.
Also, I am confident the close-out prices do not undercut the cost of production. So, for example, the sale of last year's receivers (such as the Denon 4400 and 3400 after the X500 versions were released) can be assumed to exceed the cost of production, but probably not by a very large amount.
Nonetheless, It seems (in the case of Denon, which is the one I have paid attention to) that they do not hesitate to run up inventory (despite modern Just-In-Time techniques for limiting production). So I believe Denon sees the availability of last years model on discount as an advantageous marketing strategy. How much that is about direct profit vs capturing portions of the market which might otherwise go to competitors is a very intriguing curiosity! It is obvious that they probably lose some of their own sales of this years models to last years discounted model; but I'm not sure that is very common on the general market. It is the experience of the people on forums such as this that drives home the value of buying last years model. The typical guy is not going to look for last years models, and the typical salesman won't call attention to them!
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Since we’ve established that getting exact data on the real prices is next to impossible, we can talk about general impressions more or less backed with some observations. My feeling is that a product out of the factory doesn’t cost 1/10 of the retail price. Sure thing, this is truer with mass production. This is IMO one of the reasons why these info are being kept secret.

Establishing a price in the free market is run by the idea of getting as much as you can and has nothing to do with searching for the justified, intrinsic value derived from the use of the product. This is the “why” behind a pretty cable. If you sell your copper for 20, but could sell it for 8000 with some fancy dressing and empty talk, you’re “losing money”. This is a very good example for the pricing as it would demand of the producer not to earn as much as he can only to be in accordance with some sort of his inner notion of morality. Meaning; yes you can make 8000 and yes there are people who will give you that kind of money if you can sleep peacefully. So the market says; yes, some of us will pay 8k for the cable. And this is your only guidance for setting up the price.

Still I wouldn’t jump to subscribe to this:
So, for example, the sale of last year's receivers (such as the Denon 4400 and 3400 after the X500 versions were released) can be assumed to exceed the cost of production, but probably not by a very large amount.
It can also be a damage control strategy similar to what I have in my business. Sometimes it’s about whether I’m going to lose 10 or 20, but lose I will. I do agree with most of what KEW wrote, but I wouldn’t draw my conclusion from sales prices alone. I’m just saying it would be nice to have something stronger to back this up.

I would say boutique brands are even guiltier as very often it’s just assembly. You open it up and find readymade components just being slapped together differently. Often people think the price has to be high with small production. Well, if it’s production, yes, but if it’s assembly, not necessarily. Small boutique brands often resemble DIY perhaps a bit more neatly done and with few veneers to choose from. So you avoid the cost of the brand, you dress it up pretty, you tell the story and you make a living.

This is more obvious now that almost the entire world production moved to India and China. You have a lot of cases where some production lines tried to offer the same product without the brand for a fraction of the price. This plus shipping is close to actual cost.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is more obvious now that almost the entire world production moved to India and China. You have a lot of cases where some production lines tried to offer the same product without the brand for a fraction of the price. This plus shipping is close to actual cost.
First it was Japan, Taiwan, then China, India, Mexico, Vietnam, who will take their place 5-10 years from now? There are going to be other lower labor cost areas to take their place for sure.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Most people in the industry know what the cost + freight is. Electronics have a very small margin.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Most people in the industry know what the cost + freight is. Electronics have a very small margin.
What cost are you talking about?
Cost for distributer/BestBuy or cost to produce (no manufacturers profit margin)?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
What cost are you talking about?
Cost for distributer/BestBuy or cost to produce (no manufacturers profit margin)?
Wholesale cost from manufacturers to either distributor or retailer. Except boutique items, the main stay operates in the mid 30s to very low 40%s. I'm sure @M Code can confirm. TVs even lower. Speakers represent the highest margins outside of cables.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Wholesale cost from manufacturers to either distributor or retailer. Except boutique items, the main stay operates in the mid 30s to very low 40%s. I'm sure @M Code can confirm. TVs even lower. Speakers represent the highest margins outside of cables.
Depends.

If someone sells at full MSRP, sure but what is involved in selling this stuff? If it's stocked by the dealer, and the requirements can be pretty damn high WRT annual purchases, it needs a place to sit until sold, it often needs to be advertised, people need to be paid and many other expenses need to be covered. Then, there's the interest if it's floor-planned or financed in some other way. If something sold by a B&M dealer is also sold online, the price is sometimes advertised below the dealer's cost- this happens frequently when the equipment is bought from distributors and even without a store, there's no point in driving to their place to pick it up, drive back, deliver/install it and break even. I don't generally sell TVs for this reason. If the item is faulty, it's more driving and time, to support something that cost money to sell. Then, there are manufacturer sites that advertise at costs below what a dealer pays, although lower prices have usually been offered to the dealers, too- just not the same when buying through distribution. It's easy to say "Well, just sell more"- much easier said, than done.

Some brands demand an initial buy-in amount that isn't bad, but they also want the dealer to buy everything in the line and that's where I have a problem with a few companies. If I don't like something in the line, there's no chance that I'll enthusiastically promote it and it will just sit unless someone asks for it.

I looked at buying an AV store and after seeing that the cost of doing business would be over $140K annually, without paying myself, I turned it down. That included some inventory, but it wouldn't be enough for the first year and most of that was more than a year old, so getting a good price would have been difficult, at best.

Most people don't understand the costs of employing people. In WI, as soon as I hire someone, I have to buy unemployment insurance, pay worker's comp, do the admin and pay the second half of FICA (7.65% of earned wages). Employees also like to take some vacation time and have sick/personal days- as valuable as they are for maintaining morale, it is a cost because it's hard to quantify the benefit that came from time off with no production. Do business owners get the same amount of time off? If it's a small business and'or a start-up, don't bet on it. Paid health insurance? Add it to the list and pretty soon, 40% gross margin doesn't seem like much.

This is a partial list of expenses for a business:

Location- whether it's a real store or out of the house, it costs money to have some kind of a base, even if it's only for doing the admin.

Insurance- not only for the office/store, but for inventory, liability and vehicle(s).

Licensing, registration, admin and training-

Gasoline/diesel fuel- there's a lot of driving involved in some businesses that can't operate without it

Wages. Even if the average is $20/hour, people need to do enough to justify their existence in the company. Payroll of $200K/year costs $15,300 in FICA- That's $51K in sales at 30% or $38,250 @ 40%, just to cover a tax. Applying this to only one brand that I can buy only from distributors because I haven't signed up, I would have to sell $102K in order to cover FICA.

We don't see the actual cost of goods because there's a lot that happens between concept and release for sale. How much does it cost to design, build, test, tweak, test, etc a product? They need to source components, pay for tooling, packaging, transit, storage and factor in the markup to distributors and dealers. Should they sell AT cost? That would be ridiculous to expect but it's the main reason direct sales are so popular, although consumers are often paying the seller more than what a distributor or dealer would.

Then, there's the snake oil crap- I saw the AQ price list and they ARE NOT to be discounted. Nice profit, but would die inside if I ever sold cables at those prices.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
First it was Japan, Taiwan, then China, India, Mexico, Vietnam, who will take their place 5-10 years from now? There are going to be other lower labor cost areas to take their place for sure.
China came last. They're only able to produce at current prices because the government subsidizes just about anything they sell to the US, so they can make it uneconomical to produce here.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
A couple of points to keep in mind when calculating prime audio component product cost:
  • Cost of materials
  • Labor for assembly, validation
  • Amount of automation for assembly
  • Factory overhead expenses
  • Target factory profit margin
  • Country of origin
  • Product royalties
  • Import duties

There are multiple factors to consider as the global CE market is rapidly evolving with continuous advanced technologies and changes. Regarding product royalties, as an example for AVRs over the last 10 years these have increased by >250% for the new HD audio, HD video, connectivity protocols. Regarding import duties this is a sensitive, political area, under Obama CE products built in certain Far East countries would have had little or no import duties under the proposed TPP plan but...
Trump axed this which increased the CE product's landed cost into the USA. Note that the Euro market are enjoying lower import duties as they approved the TPP. Also now certain ODM/OE CE factories have moved from China to Vietnam for lower labor costs. But still today to a large extent the crucial, key components come from China.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
AVR verses separates with a twist.
A twist of what? Lemon, lime, orange? ;)
 

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