AVR for PSB T6

[Sylar]

What would be a good AVR for the PSB T6?
What functionalities on the AVR would you suggest to not compromise?

Specs state that it has a nominal 6Ω & minimum of 4Ω impedance. Why do they specify 2 ratings here?
I read through the measurements here, the impedance reaches low of around 3Ω at the lower frequencies.

Most AVR's I saw don't have 4Ω specs. What price range AVR's is recommend?
I am looking at a budget around 500$ - 600$, is this low or would I get a good AVR?

 

[jostenmeat]

Impedance changes with frequency. They plot it out like below (and the dotted line shows phase angle, which also can make it tougher). If the greater phase angles occur only when the impedance is benign, then it's not a big deal.

So the impedance is the solid black line. Impedance scale is on left (numbers on the right scale is only for the dotted line). Where the black line gets lowest is the lowest impedance, and then read the number below to know where it's happening in freq. It looks like about 400hz is the lowest point.

I suggest a greater than $500-600 receiver, but, you know I think GranteedEV might have a Marantz suggestion . . . maybe he can chime in with it.

If I bought a receiver from scratch with $900 I'd go for the Denon 4310. I believe M Code might have said it's built in Japan, and that it's a fantastic value at this price point. If I had an extra $500, I'd go for the newer 4311 for its excellent reviews and MultEQ XT32. (I'm an Audyssey fanboi.)

 

[3db]

Impedance changes with frequency. They plot it out like below (and the dotted line shows phase angle, which also can make it tougher). If the greater phase angles occur only when the impedance is benign, then it's not a big deal.

So the impedance is the solid black line. Impedance scale is on left (numbers on the right scale is only for the dotted line). Where the black line gets lowest is the lowest impedance, and then read the number below to know where it's happening in freq. It looks like about 400hz is the lowest point.

I suggest a greater than $500-600 receiver, but, you know I think GranteedEV might have a Marantz suggestion . . . maybe he can chime in with it.

If I bought a receiver from scratch with $900 I'd go for the Denon 4310. I believe M Code might have said it's built in Japan, and that it's a fantastic value at this price point. If I had an extra $500, I'd go for the newer 4311 for its excellent reviews and MultEQ XT32. (I'm an Audyssey fanboi.)

From the looks of that curve, it still looks like a fairly easy speaker to drive. Although the impedance dips into the 3 ohm region at 400 Hz, the phase angle is almost 0 degrees meaning all the power is delivered to the driver instead of wasted by reactance or inductance. Also that impedance drop occurs at 400 Hz which is out of the energy sucking bass region. The biggest phase angle is a high -67.5 degrees at 70Hz but the impedance is sitting in and around 8ohms. I wouldn't drive them with entry level Yamaha or Denon but a mid level receiver should e quite capable of driving them loud into a small to medium size room.

To the OP, also look at the RXA1000 receiver from Yamaha.

 

[GranteedEV]

I suggest a greater than $500-600 receiver, but, you know I think GranteedEV might have a Marantz suggestion . . . maybe he can chime in with it.

LOL although there's a bit of a caveat to the regular suggestion...

The Marantz SR6004 produces a solid 200+ wpc into 4 ohms so it should have little difficulty driving such a speaker.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr6004-1/sr6004-measurements

However the place where I usually recommend buying them from is accessories4less, and they don't seem to have any SR6004s right now. The closest things are an SR5004

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5004/Marantz/SR5004-90w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

Which might measure worse, although I'd expect the same sort of current/voltage relative to impedance, just less of it.

...or an SR6005...

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR6005/MARANTZ/SR6005-110w-X-7ch-3-D-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

Which I suspect is more of a rebadged Denon 3311 than a Marantz 6004 + 3D and I can't say for sure how great its amp sections are as I haven't seen the measurements of this generation. They're definitely a lot lighter.

I honestly think the SR5004 would be perfectly fine though. The yamahas are probably a good choice if the flagship is any indication. I think it would be a great choice.

 

[Sylar]

Thanks for the replies.
What would receivers like Onkyo 608/609 or Denon 1911 would be like? Where are they lacking compared to Denon 4310 when paired with the T6?
I am trying to not look at the 1000$ price range. If price to performance is significant, or if it is necessary to drive the T6 with this kind of AVR's then I would consider it. But, I would like to understand your reasoning for your recommendations when compared to a couple I listed above.

Here are some issues I have to deal with. Prices here are too crazy here and I have to pay like... 4311 is $3500 when bought from dealer, 4310 is $1350 when imported thro amazon & Onkyo 609 is $750 when imported. Which forces me to...
1. Import through amazon & borderlinx. This will make me to forget about warranty. Is this recommended?
Considering the worst case scenario problems that might occur, can they be fixed without sending back to the manufacturer? My dad used to fix these stuff for a living, so I can depend on him to a large extend if needed, only spare parts is the concern. Should availability of spares be of concern?
2. If some products/manufacturers have more issues & some others less. Which ones to avoid & which ones are recommended?
3. I would require a step down converter (220 to 110, 50Hz to 60 Hz) & supply regulator (We face inconsistent voltages with significant drops & raises from time to time).

Do AVR's make a difference in what it sounds? You guys convinced me (and am thankful), that speakers make the biggest difference

 

[GranteedEV]

But, I would like to understand your reasoning for your recommendations when compared to a couple I listed above.

The main (read: almost only) thing i normally look at with any AVR purchase is its power output into a 4 ohm load continuous bandwidth @ .1% THD. I might take a quick glance at an FFT if there is one but not normally. An amp that produces a lot of power into a heavy load will be less likely to lose composure with dynamic, high current effects in that 100-400hz area where many speakers dip in frequency and much music rises in amplitude. The last thing I look at is its pre-outs and whether they can drive an external amp that has average gain to full power without clipping.

1. Import through amazon & borderlinx. This will make me to forget about warranty. Is this recommended?

No. I would contact the seller and make sure that their warranty applies in your country and not purchase it otherwise.

Considering the worst case scenario problems that might occur, can they be fixed without sending back to the manufacturer?

That depends on what goes wrong. A busted cap you can probably replace, but a corrupt DSP section or firmware?

2. If some products/manufacturers have more issues & some others less. Which ones to avoid & which ones are recommended? /QUOTE]

Avoid: Anything Acudeftechguy buys from ecost.

3. I would require a step down converter (220 to 110, 50Hz to 60 Hz) & supply regulator (We face inconsistent voltages with significant drops & raises from time to time).

Definitely don't purchase from america then. I don't suggest doing the step down conversion for an AVR. The supply regulator is probably a good idea.

Do AVR's make a difference in what it sounds?

Most of the time, with the regular, quality brands (Harman/Kardon, Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Emotiva, NAD, Parasound, Integra, etc) any difference there might be in its sound would be extremely, extremely subtle to the point where it's more than likely inaudible. If your amps are underpowered (especially when driving complex phase angles and extreme impedance dips) or the output impedance is high, then yes, you can hear a difference (especially on dynamic content like bass). I can't really comment on Pioneer, Sherwood or Onkyo receivers because i'm irrational but I bet they sound the same too. I just can't say with sureness.

I'd steer clear of anything with vacuum tubes, or anything from Sony, Panasonic, Samsung. I'm somewhat unconvinced of the truly entry level receivers' ability to drive real loudspeaker loads properly even from real companies listed above.

Normally I'd recommend the receivers with an MSRP around 900-1k because they're bound to have robust amp sections, reliable pre-out sections, as well as superior features(like Audessey MultEQ XT). It sounds like you're in a bit of a predicament though due to where you're located.

You guys convinced me (and am thankful), that speakers make the biggest difference

*the speakers and their interaction with the room and listening position

 

[Sylar]

Definitely don't purchase from america then. I don't suggest doing the step down conversion for an AVR. The supply regulator is probably a good idea.

Now am lost with very very few options. I either have to go for receivers of the likes of Denon 1911/Onkyo 608, or...try and get hold of a dual voltage AVR's or try n get a 220V rated AVR from America itself.

What are the issues involved with using a stepdown? I heard a hands down no. I came across a smiliar link here, so was wondering what technical issues are involved here with a stepdown.

The www.220-electronics.com sells 220 volts AVR's at prices similar to 110V AVR's. Does anyone have anyone experience or heard of this site? Some way I can check its reliability (I cant call them from here using the toll free number provided).
Does anyone has some info regarding a reliable place to obtain dual-voltage or 220V AVR's?

 

[Sylar]

So close but feels so far from it. I feel like pulling off all my hair. I canceled my date this weekend fearing I might jump on her.

I now have to compromise somewhere & Price I can't compromise on. I cant buy a 1000$ reciever which is sold at like 3500$ here. Way way way over my total budget. I am buying only fronts & AVR now because of my budget.
I have thought this for a while, and these are my options now.

1. Get a AVR like Onkyo 608 / Denon 1911, in my country itself so no power conversion issues. But this will cost me what option (2) would. Not sure how capable they are to drive the T6.

2. Get a AVR like Denon 4310 / RXA1000, import it and use a stepdown. Much better options to drive the T6 with. But I fail to understand, what exactly gets compromised here with the stepdown?

3. Don't buy PSB T6, but buy a different set of speakers that can be driven easily with AVR's like (1) . If not this then bookshelves like PSB Imagine or Paradigm Studio 10, but have to buy without auditioning. Not too keen on this.

 

[jostenmeat]

I vote for an entry level receiver then. However, one can still find some significant differences between the amplifier performance between two entry level receivers. I don't know if it was the 1911, and as many nice receivers Denon has made, this one could have been the one that was very wimpy. Either you will have to do some footwork there, or otherwise you will have to wait for someone who is both knowledgeable and willing to take the time for you.

Also, I would do my best to get preouts on the receiver, because then you can always add an amplifier down the road.

It may not necessarily save you any money, but maybe it could where you live . . . if you are only getting a pair of speakers, you do not necessarily need to buy a mch receiver . . .

 

[PENG]

1. Get a AVR like Onkyo 608 / Denon 1911, in my country itself so no power conversion issues. But this will cost me what option (2) would. Not sure how capable they are to drive the T6.

I think the 1910 in your region used to have preouts but I am not sure if they do now, you should check it out just to be sure. Most likely you have to go for the 2310 or 2311 to get preouts. In North America, only the 33XX and higher models have preouts. With preouts you have the option to buy a 2 channel amp later on to help drive the T6s at the front. The 608 is as powerful as the 1911 but it does not have preouts for sure.

2. Get a AVR like Denon 4310 / RXA1000, import it and use a stepdown. Much better options to drive the T6 with.

Denon says the 4311 can drive 4 ohm speakers so it is a good bet that the 4310 can too even though they did not say so in the specs. Can't you get a good deal on the 4310 in your country, or even the 3808?

But I fail to understand, what exactly gets compromised here with the stepdown?

Didn't I tell you that in your other thread. You potentially compromise sound quality due to the difference in frequency that may affect the performance of the AVR's internal power supply; and you end up with a transformer that hums, introduce another souce for voltage drop, heat and losses.

3. Don't buy PSB T6, but buy a different set of speakers that can be driven easily with AVR's like (1) . If not this then bookshelves like PSB Imagine or Paradigm Studio 10, but have to buy without auditioning. Not too keen on this.

Well, you picked a winner, I like the T6 a lot.

 

[Sylar]

Allright. I think I have heard enough.

Thanks for all the replies so far and being patient with me. I even PM'd a few, and I got an unanimous...
Not Recommended!! to use a stepdown for Receiver.

I don't want to be adventurous spending my hard earned money though it seems more feasible for me. Also, I will loose out on warranty.
I guess I was hoping/praying to hear someone...anyone to tell me it's ok to use a stepdown. So out goes option 2, and I don't want to let go of Option 3. This leaves me with option 1, or hope to get lucky like hell .

Will search around a bit more back here at home, before I jump in for a receiver here. For speakers, I was able to find some manufacturers like PSB with relatively small price difference compared to amazon dollar prices. But, numerous threads I read, prices I inquired, people I spoke to, all seems very discouraging in this regard.

I think the 1910 in your region used to have preouts but I am not sure if they do now

No, these do not come with pre-outs here.

I noticed that the Latest from Onkyo 609 & 709 seems to have networking and preouts (709). More features at a better price, hence am unsure how rigid the power supply section is to drive 4Ω loads.

 

[PENG]

I noticed that the Latest from Onkyo 609 & 709 seems to have networking and preouts (709). More features at a better price, hence am unsure how rigid the power supply section is to drive 4Ω loads.

The Onkyo 70X series always come with pre-outs but not the 60X series. If you like Audyssey, the Onkyo 709 or the Denon 2311 could be your choice. Now if you don't care much about 3D then the 705 or 2309, 2310 will likely be more affordable if you can find them in your area. Those AVR can drive the T6 but you may not get the best out of those 4 ohm speakers. Also, as soon as you hear any sign of distortion, turn down the volume, and then as soon as you are ready to buy them more power, go for a 200WX2 amp. If you don't mind used, amps can be very affordable.

 

[Sylar]

Okie. A lot happier today

I searched around spoke to many guys in a forum back home, and got some good info from 3 guys, then I myself went to a few dealers and just gambled with a 'funny price'. The T6 i wont get much of a discount. The margin is less with PSB, but still I get a better one than whom I was going to.

But with AVR's, a different story. Big margins involved here. While the 4311 seems way expensive (didnt even try to bargain as even 50% off was still on higher side), 6005 & 7005 are within my range ($100 difference between the 2). I bargained big time, with apparent low price deals from another dealer.
Am still finding and checking out what best I can achieve. have now got one guy who offered at $1575, another guy $1450...but yet to confirm if this is genuine deal or grey market. An online offer. I was also offered at $1450 without bill and warranty.

I googled around & checked some reviews of 7005, all seem kool so far. The audioholics receivers reviews has not happened yet for 7005. Only the first look.
What do you guys think of 6005 & 7005 since both are in my range? The 7005 is being recommended by many as a good one where Marantz have now added features on top of the usual reliable uncompromised quality. Not sure how true if those reviews are to be believed

I can change my options, I still am flexible here. I can change my course to stereo, if i dont get a recommended option by you guys here. I wont be upgrading to 5.1 anytime soon as I need to buy a Sandy Bridge based desktop first, so currently only 2 fronts.

 

[jostenmeat]

Please give a PM to BMXTRIX for a quote on any certain receiver, particularly the Denon 4311. It will be a fair price, and it will be warrantied (which I guess is not always the case with online transactions and Denon). I don't think it's directly from him, but perhaps a colleague he might helping out. I'd trust him in a heartbeat.

Hm nevermind. I think I misunderstood the pricing issue, and just how high the 4311 is for you.

You really ought to consider the 4310 at about $900 if that's doable. BTW, I believe it's made in Japan, whereas today, I am not sure that ANY receiver no matter the cost, by Denon Marantz etc, is made in Japan anymore.

 

[Sylar]

Please give a PM to BMXTRIX for a quote on any certain receiver, particularly the Denon 4311. It will be a fair price, and it will be warrantied (which I guess is not always the case with online transactions and Denon). I don't think it's directly from him, but perhaps a colleague he might helping out. I'd trust him in a heartbeat.

Hm nevermind. I think I misunderstood the pricing issue, and just how high the 4311 is for you.

You really ought to consider the 4310 at about $900 if that's doable. BTW, I believe it's made in Japan, whereas today, I am not sure that ANY receiver no matter the cost, by Denon Marantz etc, is made in Japan anymore.

The problem is that I dont live in America
So trying to find a good bargain, which is not easy

 

[PENG]

The problem is that I dont live in America
So trying to find a good bargain, which is not easy

If you can get a good idea on the SR7005, can't you get a better deal on the Denon 3311? In North America the 3311 costs less than the 7005. I believe the two share the same internal components so the cheaper one is a better deal.

 

[Sylar]

If you can get a good idea on the SR7005, can't you get a better deal on the Denon 3311? In North America the 3311 costs less than the 7005. I believe the two share the same internal components so the cheaper one is a better deal.

Any particular reason you are recommending 3311 over 7005?

Different dealers, some are flexible & some others not as much. Marantz was very easy to bargain. Denon & onkyo dealers were too rigid, among the guys i checked. Will explore a lil more n check out.

 

[PENG]

Any particular reason you are recommending 3311 over 7005?

Only because here in North America it is about USD400 less than the SR7005 and you basically get the same gear, just look different. If in your part of the world you can get a better deal on the Marantz then get the Marantz.

 

[Sylar]

I finally decided to make the jump
I ordered the PSB T6 and the Marantz 7005 today. Thanks for all the replies and helpful advice

Now is the hard part for the next few days...wait for it to be delivered