AVR and Crossover

[Teetertotter?]

I recently replaced my mains with Klipsch RP-500M II 's in my 5.1 system. Speakers were set to small and performed the Audyssey speaker calibration. Mains are 6 feet apart with tweeters at ear level, speakers are pointed straight out into the room, and my listening distance is 6.5 feet, and AVR is set to Stereo. Using the Audyssey calibration, Piano, Classical, Soft Rock, and Oldies music, sounded so perfect. Perhaps the crossovers in the RP-500M II, made the quality sound difference?

I did change the speaker crossovers to 80Hz, but the music sounded horrible, in my case. I could not bear it, in my situation. The sub setting stays at 120Hz. I know we read/hear to set the crossovers to 80Hz. Am I an exception with my Denon AVR?? I don't like a lot of base and volume/gain knob on the sub, is at 9 o'clock, just right, for movies too.

My equipment list is below, in my signature.

 

[TLS Guy]

I recently replaced my mains with Klipsch RP-500M II 's in my 5.1 system. Speakers were set to small and performed the Audyssey speaker calibration. Mains are 6 feet apart with tweeters at ear level, speakers are pointed straight out into the room, and my listening distance is 6.5 feet, and AVR is set to Stereo. Using the Audyssey calibration, Piano, Classical, Soft Rock, and Oldies music, sounded so perfect. Perhaps the crossovers in the RP-500M II, made the quality sound difference?

I did change the speaker crossovers to 80Hz, but the music sounded horrible, in my case. I could not bear it, in my situation. The sub setting stays at 120Hz. I know we read/hear to set the crossovers to 80Hz. Am I an exception with my Denon AVR?? I don't like a lot of base and volume/gain knob on the sub, is at 9 o'clock, just right, for movies too.

My equipment list is below, in my signature.

There is no hard and fast rule, but sensible guidance. If speakers are capable I am a great believer in LFE + Main, as this blends the best as phase shift is reduced. However that is probably not a good idea for most situations. There is a good rule of thumb to set crossover to F3 plus 50% So for your mains the F3 is 50 Hz, and 80 Hz crossover is appropriate. Your center has an F3 of 65 and the surrounds 62. So, a 100 Hz crossover is appropriate for those. They have small drivers though, so you might want to try 120 Hz. A lot depends on listening tests here, but that rule of thumb is pretty good.

Your mains are only 6' apart and I think that is a problem. That puts your front three all only 3' apart. That is going to have adverse frequency response errors due to phase cancellations and reinforcements from comb filtering. From pictures posted by members here, I have to say the commonest error I see is speakers far too close together. You want to space speakers 6' to 8' feet apart. That means placing your mains 12' or more apart.

 

[Teetertotter?]

@TLS Guy, advise taken. My HT room is 8ft wide, with sub taking up room in between. The AVR is stereo mode, which the music comes from the mains. It feels like it is coming from the center, but there is separation on both L R , if I lean over to one side or the other. I guess, I am stuck with it comes to music, in getting proper separation/balance.

I thought distance for the mains, meant the total distance between the two. I will take the mains, and aim them at my head, for any difference. Then will experiment with your crossover suggestions. Much is appreciated!

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy, advise taken. My HT room is 8ft wide, with sub taking up room in between. The AVR is stereo mode, which the music comes from the mains. It feels like it is coming from the center, but there is separation on both L R , if I lean over to one side or the other. I guess, I am stuck with it comes to music, in getting proper separation/balance.

I thought distance for the mains, meant the total distance between the two. I will take the mains, and aim them at my head, for any difference. Then will experiment with your crossover suggestions. Much is appreciated!

That makes speaker placing difficult. You need about 14" from boundaries for speaker placing. That is from the axis of the drivers. So if you room is 8' wide then your spacing is what it is. You might be better off with no center channel. In our family room spacing of speakers does not allow for a center channel and it is better off without one. Your center is an MTM, so my strong hunch is that your system will be upgraded if you take out the center channel. At the spacing of your mains you should have a very stable center image without a center speaker.

 

[Teetertotter?]

@TLS Guy, I need clear dialog for movies. When I switch to TV, the AVR autos to DD, Surround. When streaming Netflix through TV App, AVR switches to DD TV, for surround through speakers. I have the sound auto switching to whatever source in use. This saves time to adjust sound for each source. All sources are fed to the AVR, with the TV utilizing eArc. Anyway, tomorrow, I will do some experimenting and go from there. Again, appreciate your suggestive input.

 

[PENG]

I recently replaced my mains with Klipsch RP-500M II 's in my 5.1 system. Speakers were set to small and performed the Audyssey speaker calibration. Mains are 6 feet apart with tweeters at ear level, speakers are pointed straight out into the room, and my listening distance is 6.5 feet, and AVR is set to Stereo. Using the Audyssey calibration, Piano, Classical, Soft Rock, and Oldies music, sounded so perfect. Perhaps the crossovers in the RP-500M II, made the quality sound difference?

I did change the speaker crossovers to 80Hz, but the music sounded horrible, in my case. I could not bear it, in my situation. The sub setting stays at 120Hz. I know we read/hear to set the crossovers to 80Hz. Am I an exception with my Denon AVR?? I don't like a lot of base and volume/gain knob on the sub, is at 9 o'clock, just right, for movies too.

My equipment list is below, in my signature.

I don't know which Denon model you are using, but based on the impedance/phase angle curve below, I would think crossover of 100 to 130 Hz would likely yield the best results for your piano, classical music listening.

Those speakers would be tough on a 50-80 WPC AVR but your listening distance is only 6.5 ft so it should not be an issue unless you listen to very loud level and contents that have a lot of energy in the below 200 Hz range.

 

[Teetertotter?]

I watch more 5.1 movies and TV, over listening to music. AVR music sound is set to, "Virtual," for best/true listening, for me. Current Audyssey crossover setting, will stay universal for all content. I acknowledge everyone's input. For music, I will have to contend with sound coming mostly from the center channel, even though turned off for Music. I will see if more music separation is presented, if the mains are angled at my head.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Center spread?

 

[Trebdp83]

If Dolby Surround is used for playing two channel music with vocals, Center Spread will get those vocals out to the FL and FR speakers. But, Center Spread only works when using Dolby Surround.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If Dolby Surround is used for playing two channel music with vocals, Center Spread will get those vocals out to the FL and FR speakers. But, Center Spread only works when using Dolby Surround.

True. I really miss ol plii sometimes. I liked that you could set the width of center spread, and the balance between front and pack. I think it was called panorama or something.
The good ol days! Mutha fukkas…

 

[Trebdp83]

Unfortunately, some cool features of various older AVPs and AVRs were left off newer models supporting new HDMI and HDCP specs and the new Dolby and DTS “object based” formats.

 

[Antares]

True. I really miss ol plii sometimes. I liked that you could set the width of center spread, and the balance between front and pack. I think it was called panorama or something.
The good ol days! Mutha fukkas…

I stand by that motion.

 

[Antares]

I watch more 5.1 movies and TV, over listening to music. AVR music sound is set to, "Virtual," for best/true listening, for me. Current Audyssey crossover setting, will stay universal for all content. I acknowledge everyone's input. For music, I will have to contend with sound coming mostly from the center channel, even though turned off for Music. I will see if more music separation is presented, if the mains are angled at my head.

Ngl, Virtual is quite the thing.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy, I need clear dialog for movies. When I switch to TV, the AVR autos to DD, Surround. When streaming Netflix through TV App, AVR switches to DD TV, for surround through speakers. I have the sound auto switching to whatever source in use. This saves time to adjust sound for each source. All sources are fed to the AVR, with the TV utilizing eArc. Anyway, tomorrow, I will do some experimenting and go from there. Again, appreciate your suggestive input.

It is very hard for me to answer these questions as I don't seem to encounter the types of issues that others have.

I have a carefully balanced system, and my center speaker is essentially totally unique, and quite unlike anything on the market. I would say though that I have zero issues with dialog, for movies or TV. That also applies to my 2.1 system and 3.1 system. For the later it does not matter if it is run 2.1 or 3.1 the difference is minimal and my wife can not tell the difference. The AV fronts are a totally integrated speakers, with the sub 1 and 2 channels reproduced by the four drivers in the long transmission lines of the front right and left speakers. The surround backs also have a response well down to 20Hz, the 3 db point is 27Hz The 3.1 system also has a TL sub. The family room system uses two isobarik subs, but the front speakers don't start to roll off until just below 30Hz, so the subs are only "marginally cracked open" below 40 Hz. To be honest they make a minimal contribution.

Now I listen mainly to music, symphonic, chamber , solo, choral and opera. I do not listen to multi miked highly processed pop music if I can help it.

I listen to 2 channel in the AV room with the DD Surround upmixer. In the 3.1 system I listen 2.1. I find the Dolby upmixer works well for me in the main. If not I listen 2.1. That is rare. On those occasions when I do have to listen to highly processed rock/pop, then the upmixer invariably makes a total mess of it, and I have to go 2.1.
I am not guessing here, but using hard data from my analysis of the wav. files, that the processing of "pop/rock" totally destroys normal phase relationships and the up mixer can not work. That is the reason people who listen to this type of music have to use center spread.
So I do not use center spread when using the upmixer, and in almost all cases the balance between right, left and center speakers is optimal. For opera voices move seamlessly across the stage as they should without variation of tonality.

For multichannel and Atmos I leave everything the way it was mixed pretty much.

I find the upmixer does a quite remarkable job of conveying the acoustic of the venue. Not as good as discrete Atmos recordings, but it is very good.

So, I leave my systems essentially alone. I have done careful set up with measurements and never get an itch to change anything. I really just change volume and switch inputs pretty much. That way I enjoy my programs.