AVR + Amp: Mixing new with the old and wading into the Audiophile pool

J

joran6

Audiophyte
Hi everyone! Total audiophile noob here, so be gentle! You guys are sharks in the wave pool drinking margaratas while I’m knee-deep on the zero depth entry side with my lemonade sippy cup!

Background: As short as I can, an explanation. For about 10 years I have had Denon 1907 AVR with a set of 5.1 Kenwood speakers. Not audiophile equipment to be sure, but better than a sound bar and what most people have. Still, I felt it was time to upgrade. I basically wanted entry-level audiophile level stuff and settled on a Klipsch RP-450C center channel and a Klipsch RP-112SW subwoofer. I knew the Klipsch speakers would be upgrades over my Kenwoods but I was not prepared for the level of difference. It blew me away to the point that I dove directly into the deep end without even checking the water. First, I wanted to complete the Klipsch setup. So I ordered two Klipsch RP-8000f towers and the matching surrounds. Those have not even ARRIVED yet and my audiophile friend (a big jerk who gets me to spend money) convinced me that my Denon 1907 cannot satisfy my Klipsch towers that are coming and that if I really wanted to hear them hum I needed to buy an external amplifier. SO....I talked with him and researched it and bought a mint condition Adcom GFA 555 amplifier. I liked the idea of it because, from what I can tell, if I don’t like it I can sell it for the same amount I paid. That hasn’t even arrived yet either and I realize my old Denon 1907 doesn’t even have pre outs for the amplifier. SO now I need a new receiver. Honestly, I think I did anyway. It was far from top of the line Denon even when it was new.

Problem/Question: Short Short version; I need a receiver that serves well for HT and is an upgrade in sound to the old Denon 1907, but that also has in mind I want to use the Adcom GFA 555 external to power the towers. I want both worlds. My primary use is HT, by far. That said, this is a new world I’m wading into and I’m definitely interested in discussion of the advantages/disadvantages of my various options. Here are the 3 receivers I’m considering at the moment and my brief thoughts on each. Hopefully enough to spark the conversation I’m hoping for and I DEFINTELY understand it’s all just talk until I hear it for myself. I want to maybe take a step up in HT, but not pay for more than I really need especially considering my use of the external amp.

  • Marantz NR1609-7.2 (50W): my concern is only 50W. I’m using the Adcom for the towers but is this underpowered for the rest of the speakers? Does the sound quality of the Marantz surpass the old Denon 1907 to the point where the loss of power doesn’t matter? I’m aware not all power is equal and sometimes splashing (100x7) on something doesn’t mean it isn’t crap. How little amperage is too little?
  • Marantz SR6013-9.2 (110W): my only real concern is if this is just too much Marantz to justify for my setup. Do the Klipsch speakers I purchased need these, given that I’m powering the externals with the Adcom?
  • Pioneer Elite SC-LX701-9.2 (135W): my jerk audiophile friend likes this ones., Naturally the highest costing of the bunch.
  • And Finally…..what about the potential negatives/benefits of a separate preamp/processor? Now that’s really wading into unfamiliar territory for me but I’m willing to listen.

I really appreciate any of you willing to take the time to chat with a newbie. I love this stuff….I’m just kinda new to it at this level.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi everyone! Total audiophile noob here, so be gentle! You guys are sharks in the wave pool drinking margaratas while I’m knee-deep on the zero depth entry side with my lemonade sippy cup!

Background: As short as I can, an explanation. For about 10 years I have had Denon 1907 AVR with a set of 5.1 Kenwood speakers. Not audiophile equipment to be sure, but better than a sound bar and what most people have. Still, I felt it was time to upgrade. I basically wanted entry-level audiophile level stuff and settled on a Klipsch RP-450C center channel and a Klipsch RP-112SW subwoofer. I knew the Klipsch speakers would be upgrades over my Kenwoods but I was not prepared for the level of difference. It blew me away to the point that I dove directly into the deep end without even checking the water. First, I wanted to complete the Klipsch setup. So I ordered two Klipsch RP-8000f towers and the matching surrounds. Those have not even ARRIVED yet and my audiophile friend (a big jerk who gets me to spend money) convinced me that my Denon 1907 cannot satisfy my Klipsch towers that are coming and that if I really wanted to hear them hum I needed to buy an external amplifier. SO....I talked with him and researched it and bought a mint condition Adcom GFA 555 amplifier. I liked the idea of it because, from what I can tell, if I don’t like it I can sell it for the same amount I paid. That hasn’t even arrived yet either and I realize my old Denon 1907 doesn’t even have pre outs for the amplifier. SO now I need a new receiver. Honestly, I think I did anyway. It was far from top of the line Denon even when it was new.

Problem/Question: Short Short version; I need a receiver that serves well for HT and is an upgrade in sound to the old Denon 1907, but that also has in mind I want to use the Adcom GFA 555 external to power the towers. I want both worlds. My primary use is HT, by far. That said, this is a new world I’m wading into and I’m definitely interested in discussion of the advantages/disadvantages of my various options. Here are the 3 receivers I’m considering at the moment and my brief thoughts on each. Hopefully enough to spark the conversation I’m hoping for and I DEFINTELY understand it’s all just talk until I hear it for myself. I want to maybe take a step up in HT, but not pay for more than I really need especially considering my use of the external amp.

  • Marantz NR1609-7.2 (50W): my concern is only 50W. I’m using the Adcom for the towers but is this underpowered for the rest of the speakers? Does the sound quality of the Marantz surpass the old Denon 1907 to the point where the loss of power doesn’t matter? I’m aware not all power is equal and sometimes splashing (100x7) on something doesn’t mean it isn’t crap. How little amperage is too little?
  • Marantz SR6013-9.2 (110W): my only real concern is if this is just too much Marantz to justify for my setup. Do the Klipsch speakers I purchased need these, given that I’m powering the externals with the Adcom?
  • Pioneer Elite SC-LX701-9.2 (135W): my jerk audiophile friend likes this ones., Naturally the highest costing of the bunch.
  • And Finally…..what about the potential negatives/benefits of a separate preamp/processor? Now that’s really wading into unfamiliar territory for me but I’m willing to listen.

I really appreciate any of you willing to take the time to chat with a newbie. I love this stuff….I’m just kinda new to it at this level.
In my opinion, the best value for the 2019 models is in the Denon avr-x3600h. Or the 2018 Marantz SR6013. Don't settle for less, if you want to call it an upgrade.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I agree with Peng.

Your jerk/friend sounds more like a jerk and than a friend. He never looked at the back of your present receiver to see what pre-amp output jacks it had. That Adcom GFA-555 amp he recommended, at 200 watt/channel is enough to drive any speaker there is, with rare exception. It is severe overkill for those Klipsch RP-8000f towers you bought. With a rated sensitivity of 98 dB/watt, they don't require much power. Klipsch has been known to exaggerate its speaker sensitivity ratings, but even with a large fudge-factor margin, those speakers won't need the power of that Adcom to drive them to uncomfortably loud levels.

After you get a new receiver such as what Peng recommended, try it with your new speakers. It will likely be plenty powerful for your Klipschs. Then sell the Adcom – at a profit – to your jerk/friend.
 
J

joran6

Audiophyte
I agree with Peng.

Your jerk/friend sounds more like a jerk and than a friend. He never looked at the back of your present receiver to see what pre-amp output jacks it had. That Adcom GFA-555 amp he recommended, at 200 watt/channel is enough to drive any speaker there is, with rare exception. It is severe overkill for those Klipsch RP-8000f towers you bought. With a rated sensitivity of 98 dB/watt, they don't require much power. Klipsch has been known to exaggerate its speaker sensitivity ratings, but even with a large fudge-factor margin, those speakers won't need the power of that Adcom to drive them to uncomfortably loud levels.

After you get a new receiver such as what Peng recommended, try it with your new speakers. It will likely be plenty powerful for your Klipschs. Then sell the Adcom – at a profit – to your jerk/friend.
lol, thanks. Good stuff. Me pulling the trigger on the Adcom was my fault....he just said it was a fantastic amp and then I read reviews that gaga'd over it and I picked one up for $400 spur of the moment. I'll take the blame on that. I guess my question would be then...even though I do not NEED the Adcom, is it nice to have? Will it make the Klipsch towers sound better than the AVR alone?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
lol, thanks. Good stuff. Me pulling the trigger on the Adcom was my fault....he just said it was a fantastic amp and then I read reviews that gaga'd over it and I picked one up for $400 spur of the moment. I'll take the blame on that. I guess my question would be then...even though I do not NEED the Adcom, is it nice to have? Will it make the Klipsch towers sound better than the AVR alone?
It is super unlikely you'll notice a difference until you get into the really loud listening ranges. This SPL Calculator really gives you a good idea of your power usage from where you sit. Just plug the numbers into the fields and hit calculate. Most people rarely use more than 1 or 2 watts for "normal" listening volumes. Another thing it shows is how much more power it takes to gain only 3 dB (you have to double your amp power).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
lol, thanks. Good stuff. Me pulling the trigger on the Adcom was my fault....he just said it was a fantastic amp and then I read reviews that gaga'd over it and I picked one up for $400 spur of the moment. I'll take the blame on that. I guess my question would be then...even though I do not NEED the Adcom, is it nice to have? Will it make the Klipsch towers sound better than the AVR alone?
The 555 can soon be considered vintage. I bought mine new in 1990, lost one channels a few years ago. Too busy to fix it at the time and now I cannot find it. For $400, I hope it is in A1 condition. If it is, hook it up and enjoy.
 
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CajunLB

CajunLB

Senior Audioholic
I would also recommend the Denon avr-x 3500h if you’re looking to save money and not interested in Dolby 5.2.4 or 7.2.4. You can still get 5.2.2 Atmos with the 3500.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
The 555 can soon be considered vintage. I bought mine new in the 80's, lost one channels a few years ago. Too busy to fix it at the time and now I cannot find it. For $400, I hope it is in A1 condition. If it is, hook it up and enjoy.
Isn't the 555 like 20 years old? It's a decent amp, but I think they sold for 500 new back in the day... Always ask before you buy!

Of your receiver choices I like the SR6013. I have a 6011 in my setup feeding my Monolith amp and love it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Isn't the 555 like 20 years old? It's a decent amp, but I think they sold for 500 new back in the day... Always ask before you buy!

Of your receiver choices I like the SR6013. I have a 6011 in my setup feeding my Monolith amp and love it.
I think it might have been under 20 years old when one channel failed. I probably paid about 1k back then, and slightly less for the GFP565 preamp that is still in top shape.
 
J

joran6

Audiophyte
The Adcom goes fairly consistently for between $350 and $450 on Ebay it seems. As far as I can tell from looking on ebay and Audiogon it's a fair price, especially because mine was rebuilt by an audio dude and has a new board in it. I'm not so much concerned about what I paid for it....even if I resell it for less than I paid it would still amount to a very forgivable loss. The bigger issue is just if I needed it at all. I'm confused. On the one hand everyone says it's nice to be able to have an external amp. On the other I hear it's unnecessary because my speakers are so sensitive. :confused:
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
There is much bullshit, like calling particular avrs/amps or speakers "audiophile". An audiophile is a person, not gear, who simply loves audio (and has generally been defined in the books as someone enthusiastic about home audio reproduction in particular). It's not the gear nor is it a hearing skill (altho such might be useful to an audiophile).

I'm with the others, with sensitive speakers like the Klipsch, an avr alone will likely do just fine, altho perhaps at the upper volume ranges it might be a bit cleaner but that would be pretty damn loud. Taking a bit of load off the avr may be a good thing, but keep in mind a doubling of power nets you only 3dB spl which isn't much. At least the Adcom is popular among the fans of old amps, would be relatively easy to sell and if it indeed has been rebuilt well it might be good to go for quite a while (there are also new Adcom amps available fwiw). If your Denon gives you all the features and connectivity you need, no reason not to continue using it.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I guess my question would be then...even though I do not NEED the Adcom, is it nice to have?
Yes, that Adcom amp has a good reputation as a used item. The $400 price you paid is good – 2×200 watts for $400. But would you rather have that $400 available if you buy a Denon AVR?

A new Denon AVR-X3600H 9 channel (2019 year model) costs $899 (retail direct from Denon). This is what Peng suggested above.

The same Denon 9 channel AVR-X3600H Factory Rebuild with 3 year warranty costs $750 at Accessories4Less.

A similar model, Denon AVR-X3500H 7 channel (same power output) Factory Rebuild with 1 year warranty costs $500, also at A4L. This is probably the lowest price you can find for a Denon AVR that comes with pre-amp output jacks.

FYI, Accessories4Less is a reputable online dealer specializing in somewhat older models and factory rebuilt or refurbished models with a warranty at very attractive prices. A4L is an authorized Denon dealer. You should be aware of their return policy and restocking fee before buying from them.
Will it make the Klipsch towers sound better than the AVR alone?
Highly unlikely. (Those are my words when I'm being cautious about giving advice online. More likely, you'll not hear any difference :).) Any of those 105 watt/channel Denon AVRs listed above will make your Klipsch speakers sound quite good, without using an external amp.

I'd add one final thing. Before you buy any new or refurbished AVR, listen to your new speakers driven by your old Denon AVR-1907. It's rated at 85 watts/channel and might be just fine for driving those Klipsch speakers.

The difference in power between 85 and 105 watts is negligible. To notice a real difference, (1) you would need speakers that are much harder to drive loud, with a sensitivity of about 85 dB instead of well over 90 dB. And (2) you would have to increase the available power to 10-fold greater that 85 watts. As that isn't realistic, instead of 10-fold, try going for the square root of 10, or roughly 3-fold. That's about 250 watts/channel.

In other words… don't loose any sleep over this. Getting new and better speakers is a much better way to improve sound quality than spending money on amplification. Enjoy your new speakers.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@joran6
You may have noticed in my signature line, that I do use a powerful external amp along with my AVR. I'm not the only one here who does. If so, why do we try to steer you and others away from a more powerful external amp. Your question has been asked so often, that I kept notes of my previous answers. Here's my own honest experience with adding more power:

It's debatable how much increase in power is needed to hear a benefit. It depends on the speakers involved, the listener's listening preferences, and the acoustic properties of the room.

In my own limited experience, roughly doubling the power (from an old 30 wpc stereo receiver to a 70 wpc Denon AVR bought in 2000) provided little if any audible change. This was with an older JBL L100a speaker that I no longer use. It had average sensitivity of about 88 or 89 dB. When I roughly tripled the power, going from 30 wpc to 105 wpc, I could hear a difference. I've heard similar results going from a 70 wpc AVR to the same AVR used as a pre-amp combined with a 200 wpc external amp – roughly triple the power.

At first, I couldn't say I noticed anything had changed. But soon I noticed that the speaker's bass seemed a little more crisp and firm (less bloated?) on certain musical selections. It was subtle, and depended on the music and the recording quality, so it wasn't always noticeable. Within a few weeks, I started noticing that the cues I used for sound that was comfortably loud and too loud had changed. I could listen at louder levels without noticing that it was uncomfortably loud. When I realized that, I started turning it down.

Apparently, with the 70 wpc AVR alone, I had judged when to turn it down by the amount of noise or distortion I was hearing. When I started using the 200 wpc amp, those cues were less noticeable. It's not unlike driving a car, where I could estimate my speed just by listening to the road noise. If I got new tires, or drove on smoother pavement, those cues changed and my sense of speed was wrong. The more powerful amp was apparently quieter – as in less noisy than the smaller amp – while at the same time driving the speakers louder.

Other than the differences due to greater amplifier power, I've never heard a significant difference in sound quality among different stereo receivers, AV receivers, pre-amps, or external amps. I've looked for that in the past, but never did hear it. I hope that makes sense.
 
CajunLB

CajunLB

Senior Audioholic
@joran6
You may have noticed in my signature line, that I do use a powerful external amp along with my AVR. I'm not the only one here who does. If so, why do we try to steer you and others away from a more powerful external amp. Your question has been asked so often, that I kept notes of my previous answers. Here's my own honest experience with adding more power:

It's debatable how much increase in power is needed to hear a benefit. It depends on the speakers involved, the listener's listening preferences, and the acoustic properties of the room.

In my own limited experience, roughly doubling the power (from an old 30 wpc stereo receiver to a 70 wpc Denon AVR bought in 2000) provided little if any audible change. This was with an older JBL L100a speaker that I no longer use. It had average sensitivity of about 88 or 89 dB. When I roughly tripled the power, going from 30 wpc to 105 wpc, I could hear a difference. I've heard similar results going from a 70 wpc AVR to the same AVR used as a pre-amp combined with a 200 wpc external amp – roughly triple the power.

At first, I couldn't say I noticed anything had changed. But soon I noticed that the speaker's bass seemed a little more crisp and firm (less bloated?) on certain musical selections. It was subtle, and depended on the music and the recording quality, so it wasn't always noticeable. Within a few weeks, I started noticing that the cues I used for sound that was comfortably loud and too loud had changed. I could listen at louder levels without noticing that it was uncomfortably loud. When I realized that, I started turning it down.

Apparently, with the 70 wpc AVR alone, I had judged when to turn it down by the amount of noise or distortion I was hearing. When I started using the 200 wpc amp, those cues were less noticeable. It's not unlike driving a car, where I could estimate my speed just by listening to the road noise. If I got new tires, or drove on smoother pavement, those cues changed and my sense of speed was wrong. The more powerful amp was apparently quieter – as in less noisy than the smaller amp – while at the same time driving the speakers louder.

Other than the differences due to greater amplifier power, I've never heard a significant difference in sound quality among different stereo receivers, AV receivers, pre-amps, or external amps. I've looked for that in the past, but never did hear it. I hope that makes sense.
Very good explanation @Swerd
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, fwiw I've used power amps with various avrs and speakers and listening levels. Depends on the combo. Actually discernible sound quality just by having more power on tap, no, not my experience. Right now I have four avrs in use around the house, but currently no power amps at all in use with the avrs (but 3 of the 4 have pre-outs just in case). Thinking about adding some in on my main system because they're just sitting there, rather than need....
 
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J

joran6

Audiophyte
Wow, really great feedback everyone! SO much to think about! I'm gonna hook it all up and listen to it. And then hook up the adcom and listen to it. There's a 14 day return on the amp and it's easy to sell after. I'm looking forward to the experiment! But everyone's comments are really helping me learn. :)
 
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J

joran6

Audiophyte
Sorry, I forgot to say....tonight I found a really great deal on the Marantz SR6013. The receivers you guys recommended look fantastic but, when coupled with some reward points I had someplace, I was able to get the Marantz SR6013 new for $690. And at that price I did not feel I could pass it up! 9 discreet amps at 110. Now I will try adding the adcom amp to that for kicks and make a decision on it.

Marantz SR6013
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The Adcom goes fairly consistently for between $350 and $450 on Ebay it seems. As far as I can tell from looking on ebay and Audiogon it's a fair price, especially because mine was rebuilt by an audio dude and has a new board in it. I'm not so much concerned about what I paid for it....even if I resell it for less than I paid it would still amount to a very forgivable loss. The bigger issue is just if I needed it at all. I'm confused. On the one hand everyone says it's nice to be able to have an external amp. On the other I hear it's unnecessary because my speakers are so sensitive. :confused:
I really don't think you need that amp at all if those 98 dB sensitive Klipsch already sound good with your 1907. It might have some low impedance dip, but being 8 Ohms rated, even if it dip to 4 Ohm or lower, if would still be like a 92 to 95 dB sensitive speakers, i.e. still could be considered receiver friendly. If you want to be sure, run it by the spl calculator linked multiple times on AH.

Take a look of the capability of the AVR-X3300H measured by Gene, the X3600H will perform at least as good.


The GFA555 would offer more output for sure especially into low impedance, but likely less than 3 dB difference regardless. Another thing, may be that dude did a great job repairing/or rebuilding it, but I wouldn't let anyone repair my amp especially if "a new board" was used, unless he/she is from an authorized repair shop. Eeven then I would like to see the bench test results. So if you can sell it for more, you may want to take a profit, but that's just me, ymmv..obviously.
 
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