av123 website down, or is it just me

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Junior Audioholic
While I appreciate your input and thought into the situation, that simply isn't the case. This has been discussed before as to why we do prepayments for certain sales, such as the current Rocket sale. The reason for this is simple: Mark negotiates with our factory for us (as well as them) to take a reduced margin with a guaranteed number of sales. With people pre-paying for their product, each party knows exactly what they are getting profit-wise (remember, this is a business and not a charity so we do need to make money).
If you can manage to profit when selling a $3500 set of speakers and a $200 X-head amp for the combined price of $1700, you have the magic touch. Or, have you so grossly inflated the "normal" selling price that profiting off the $1700 is child's play? If your negotiated profit margin on the $1700 sale yields just 10%, or $170, that means that when the components are sold for the normal price of $3700, you profit for $2130, or at a 140% mark up.

What compensation do you offer your customers who paid $3500 for a system that now sells for $1700 and is thus, less than half of their purchase price? If you do provide an adjustment, what is the amount (using the $3500 / $1700 example, above) and in what form is it offered? Is it applicable to the sale in question? Or, do you require the customer to buy something in the future? If only applicable toward a future sale, can it be used as total payment for said sale (ie, can a $500 "voucher" be used to pay in full a $500 purchase)?
 
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MrMarsh

Banned
I'm not dissing Mark Schifter, but I have never like the pre-pay deals either. Nor do I like all the sales. They come one on top of the other. I can't imagine that anyone has ever paid full price for speakers from av123. If they did they are not a very smart shopper.

It really makes you wonder about the components used to manufacture the speakers. You can only reduce costs so much by getting pre-pays. If they can sustain profitability at basically half price what does that tell us?

Somebody else mentioned shipping. I think that is part of the answer as well. They charge actual UPS rates + a small handling charge, I believe. A modest sized company should expect 20% discount easy from UPS. All of that is straight cash for av123. It's not dishonest, I suppose, but it isn't exactly above board either.

I don't mean to rip the company. I've owned their speakers over the years with no complaints, and I've hung around their forum quite a bit. Lots of good guys over their. But the way things are managed just get worse and worse Really a shame.
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
If you can manage to profit when selling a $3500 set of speakers and a $200 X-head amp for the combined price of $1700, you have the magic touch. Or, have you so grossly inflated the "normal" selling price that profiting off the $1700 is child's play?

What compensation do you offer your customers who paid $3500 for a system that now sells for less than half of their purchase price? If you do provide an adjustment, in what form is it offered? Is it applicable to the sale in question? Or, do you require the customer to buy something in the future?
We take a lower margin. It's very simple, when you have a guarantee to sell more of a product, you're willing to sell it for a lower margin. This is a pricing strategy practiced throughout the world on a daily basis. Its called purchasing power: the more you purchase, the better the pricing you get.

I work for AV123 on the side, part time. During the day I work for a very large electrical contractor. As an example, we do bulk buys of wire to hedge our bets for the price of copper increasing. Our distributors take a lower margin on this wire because they are being guaranteed we are going to be buying "X" amount through the year. They then negotiate with the manufacturer to do the same so that everyone through the chain as "X" amount already sold.

AV123 does the same thing from time to time when we require prepayment for products. We are collecting the money up front (just as our distributors do for us in the electrical industry) after we have negotiated with the manufacturer for these "sets". There is nothing unethical about it and everything is on the up and up for the customer. It very clearly states on our website that the customer is prepaying for these goods with a delivery date of "x" in the future. All parties are agreeing to the terms before money is taken. Not rocket science, just guaranteed profit based on lower margins.

Regarding compensating customers who have already purchased a product, let me ask, does Sony do that for you when you buy a PS3 for $600 then it goes on sale for $300 (yeah ok I know they aren't that cheap but we can all hope :D)? No they don't. In the AV world (and many other tech based industries) early adopters very often pay a higher premium for a new product so they can be on the cutting edge and receiving a new product. It is no different here. While the standard pricing is higher than the speakers go on sale for, that is no different than any other company that puts on a sale. Does it hurt resale value? Yes it does temporarily as consumers are generally willing to pay a little more for a new product versus a used product.

I'm afraid you might not have liked my answer, but these are standard practices throughout our economy that are a simple fact of the day in which we live. Virtually all companies hedge their profits in one way or another and reduce prices for a product over its life cycle.

Scott
 
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Junior Audioholic
The reason for this is simple: Mark negotiates with our factory for us (as well as them) to take a reduced margin with a guaranteed number of sales.

Scott
Mark "negotiates" for both parties? Does he switch from one side of the table to the other to add effect?
 
M

MrMarsh

Banned
But Scott, does your other employer ever wait months or years for their copper wire? Do their suppliers use that pre-payment like free credit? Theres a big difference, especially with the credit markets in shambles as they are right now. All in all it wouldn't even be that bad, if you guys had some way to accurately forecast delivery dates, or some kind of guarantee in place if dates are missed.
 
ChrisJam

ChrisJam

Full Audioholic
Given the recent closure of their forum, the delivery delays reported on this and other forums, and their requirement for prepaying an order in full, months ahead of shipping,
I don't mean to be picky, but I'd like to correct one thing. Please know that though I like the company and own some of their speakers, I'm not a fanboy. Heck, given my age, I'm not even a fan-middle-aged-guy. :p

Not all av123 orders require prepayment. Some deals do, that's for sure, but it doesn't apply to all orders. My order, for example, was for a pair of x-statiks, an x-cs-enc, and an MFW-15. I did not prepay.

Chris
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
I'm not dissing Mark Schifter, but I have never like the pre-pay deals either. Nor do I like all the sales. They come one on top of the other. I can't imagine that anyone has ever paid full price for speakers from av123. If they did they are not a very smart shopper.

It really makes you wonder about the components used to manufacture the speakers. You can only reduce costs so much by getting pre-pays. If they can sustain profitability at basically half price what does that tell us?

Somebody else mentioned shipping. I think that is part of the answer as well. They charge actual UPS rates + a small handling charge, I believe. A modest sized company should expect 20% discount easy from UPS. All of that is straight cash for av123. It's not dishonest, I suppose, but it isn't exactly above board either.

I don't mean to rip the company. I've owned their speakers over the years with no complaints, and I've hung around their forum quite a bit. Lots of good guys over their. But the way things are managed just get worse and worse Really a shame.
Pre-paying for a product is one thing many people don't like. Other people don't mind it because of the discount they receive for doing so. What's great is it is a choice each of us as consumers can make on a daily basis with the products we purchase. Honestly, I'm with you. I don't like pre-paying for products. I'm more willing to spend more to get a product that is in stock now than pre-pay and wait. It's a choice you and I each get to make.

What's great about audio, is you can very easily see and hear the components used in the products built. From the moment you see the packaging and open your product, you see the components. With our products, you see quality packaging. It's not fancy boxes but they are stout and keep your products safe. Yes there are shipping incidences but they are a small portion. Each of our speakers is made with either a very nice satin black paint (or Piano Black like on our Reference and Mini series) or real hardwood veneer. There is no vinyl in any product we sell. You can pull the drivers and see their quality and look inside the cabinet and see the crossover. If you want to upgrade your crossover, one of our former employees, Sean Parque, started a company www.skiingninja.com and you can but super trick upgraded crossover networks from him. Are there companies that make products with better components, of course. These aren't the most expensive products in the industry, by far.

Regarding shipping, you are correct. We charge the rates plus a small handling fee (which it states on your invoice) plus a small markup. The pricing could be done any which way where we simply increase the price of the product and include free shipping, the way we do it, or any combination in between. There is nothing below board or shady, it's all clearly stated on the website when placing an order.

Scott ... your west coast voice for the evening :cool:
 
M

MrMarsh

Banned
Scott are you really saying that av123 pays UPS the same that I would to ship a pair of speakers from poitn A to point B? No discount for being a decent sized corporate account? I think that is the disconnect. Anyone who buys and sells used speakers will see this pretty clearly without much trying.
 
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PopDisplay

Junior Audioholic
Since you highlighted my questions, I'd appreciate it if you also supplied the answers; instead of a reference to Sony and PS3's.

What compensation do you offer your customers who paid $3500 for a system that now sells for $1700 and is thus, less than half of their purchase price? If you do provide an adjustment, what is the amount (using the $3500 / $1700 example, above) and in what form is it offered? Is it applicable to the sale in question? Or, do you require the customer to buy something in the future? If only applicable toward a future sale, can it be used as total payment for said sale (ie, can a $500 "voucher" be used to pay in full a $500 purchase)?

When replying to the questions above, please include details as to the maximum amount of time allowed between an original purchase and the adjustment.

TIA,

Dave
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
But Scott, does your other employer ever wait months or years for their copper wire? Do their suppliers use that pre-payment like free credit? Theres a big difference, especially with the credit markets in shambles as they are right now. All in all it wouldn't even be that bad, if you guys had some way to accurately forecast delivery dates, or some kind of guarantee in place if dates are missed.
Yes, we prepay (as we will be doing in January) for usually around $1 million of wire. This is far from getting us all the wire we use throughout the year but it does give us quite a hedge against the price raising. Unfortunately for us this year, the commodity market went through the tank so now we are using wire that cost us more than it would if we bought it today.

We then have them stock certain pre-determined sizes and quantities of wire in their warehouses for distribution throughout the year.

Do our suppliers use this money to finance their operations? It doesn't really matter. We have our guarantee of our product just as an AV123 customer has the guarantee of their product. AV123 is not being financed by these types of sales. They don't represent a large portion of our overall revenue.

Regarding delivery, I am in agreement with you. We (AV123) need to get better at estimating our delivery dates. No question. We get estimates from all of our shippers and use that information to forcast and then provide that info to the customers. We provide a margin of error but occasionally, we're wrong. I know, some people are going to have a problem with the word, occasionally, but really, that's what it is. For the most part, we are very good.
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
Scott are you really saying that av123 pays UPS the same that I would to ship a pair of speakers from poitn A to point B? No discount for being a decent sized corporate account? I think that is the disconnect. Anyone who buys and sells used speakers will see this pretty clearly without much trying.
Honestly, I was just using the basic pricing as an example. I'm not privy to what we actually pay so I can't give you hard numbers. I'd suprised if we don't get a discount. If you pull up a shipment on UPS from us to you and we quote you roughly the same thing, that would tell you we get a discount and mark it up. That is what partially helps pay for the people running our shipping. Once again, this is common and not shady.
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
Since you highlighted my questions, I'd appreciate it if you also supplied the answers; instead of a reference to Sony and PS3's.

What compensation do you offer your customers who paid $3500 for a system that now sells for $1700 and is thus, less than half of their purchase price? If you do provide an adjustment, what is the amount (using the $3500 / $1700 example, above) and in what form is it offered? Is it applicable to the sale in question? Or, do you require the customer to buy something in the future? If only applicable toward a future sale, can it be used as total payment for said sale (ie, can a $500 "voucher" be used to pay in full a $500 purchase)?

When replying to the questions above, please include details as to the maximum amount of time allowed between an original purchase and the adjustment.

TIA,

Dave
Dave, as I stated, standard pricing is what we usually charge. Sale pricing is just that. No we do not compensate customers who buy a product at normal price unless they purchased at the normal price and then within 30 days the product goes on sale. This is price matching and of course we will refund the difference to the customer.
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
I don't mean to be picky, but I'd like to correct one thing. Please know that though I like the company and own some of their speakers, I'm not a fanboy. Heck, given my age, I'm not even a fan-middle-aged-guy. :p

Not all av123 orders require prepayment. Some deals do, that's for sure, but it doesn't apply to all orders. My order, for example, was for a pair of x-statiks, an x-cs-enc, and an MFW-15. I did not prepay.

Chris
Chris, thank you, I knew I hadn't gotten to everything :D

As Chris states, it is only very specific sales where prepayment is required. The rest of the time we do not collect funds until 24 hours before the product ships.
 
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PopDisplay

Junior Audioholic
Dave, as I stated, standard pricing is what we usually charge. Sale pricing is just that. No we do not compensate customers who buy a product at normal price unless they purchased at the normal price and then within 30 days the product goes on sale. This is price matching and of course we will refund the difference to the customer.
Just to be crystal clear.

AV123 provides a 30 adjustment period.
If an item goes on sale within 30 days of the original purchase date, AV123 refunds the full difference between the original price and the sale price, to the customer.

Is this refund issued to the original method of payment (customer's credit card)?

If not, please provide details as to how the refund is made.

Thanks
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
Just to be crystal clear.

AV123 provides a 30 adjustment period.
If an item goes on sale within 30 days of the original purchase date, AV123 refunds the full difference between the original price and the sale price to the customer.

Is this refund issued to the original method of payment (customer's credit card)?

If not, please provide details as to how the refund is made.

Thanks
Correct! It goes back in the original form of payment. Credit for credit, credit card for credit card, etc. Just like your local Best Buy ;)

I guess I misunderstood your original question, sorry!

Scott
 
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PopDisplay

Junior Audioholic
Correct! It goes back in the original form of payment. Credit for credit, credit card for credit card, etc. Just like your local Best Buy ;)

I guess I misunderstood your original question, sorry!

Scott
Maybe I'm reaching for the stars with this question:

Is AV123 customer service oriented enough to contact its customers and let them know that they are eligible for an adjustment? Admittedly, big box retailers don't provide this service. Then again, CEO's of big box retailers don't personally host their company's message board.

TIA
 
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skeeter99

Junior Audioholic
Maybe I'm reaching for the stars with this question:

Is AV123 customer service oriented enough to contact its customers and let them know that they are eligible for an adjustment?

TIA
We do not do that, sorry, at least to my knowledge. We could and I just don't know about it. It's been a while since I was a normal customer. I did just order an X-Voce today in Satin Black to match up with my Mini's so we'll see :)

On the same token, Best Buy doesn't tell me if something I buy goes on sale nor does Costco. It is up to the consumer to be price conscious (if they wish to be) and check with the company to see if their product goes on sale.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Maybe I'm reaching for the stars with this question:

Is AV123 customer service oriented enough to contact its customers and let them know that they are eligible for an adjustment? Admittedly, big box retailers don't provide this service. Then again, CEO's of big box retailers don't personally host their company's message board.

TIA
I believe there is a newsletter you can sign up for, otherwise yes that is asking a bit much for a small-ish company.
 
M

MrMarsh

Banned
The problem I have with all the sales is that it creates a real used car lot feel. There always seems to be a lot of complication. One thing is offered but people always want something different, so there is back and forth with Mark or sales team. Discounts are given in gift certificates that can't be used until after a future date. If you look at really old threads on another forum you can see where they offered stuff like free Playstations with purchases. Just too complicated for me. I'd like to know that what I'm buying today is a good value, and I don't want to have to worry about when the next deal of the century is coming out. These purchases are fairly high dollars for lots of people and I think they should feel like it.
 
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