AV Receivers vs. Separates: Which One Is Better?

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Why is "Slew" rate so important? Yamaha stated that their New 2020 AVR's will sport a " Higher" Slew Rate. Whats a good "Slew" rate?
I think a "good" slew rate number is around 30. Or maybe it's 50. :D

I would put all these things in the "Numbers Game" for audiophiles to talk about.

None of these numbers mean anything in terms of quality IMO. I that might be one reason why S&V and Stereophile don’t do measurements anymore.

IMO the only thing that determines quality of any kind is RELIABILITY.

An AVR that lasts 20+ years is high quality.

An AVP that is the world's first and only fully balanced AVP, made in Japan, weighs 60lbs, costs $7,500 but fails in 8 years is LOW QUALITY REGARDLESS of any of those numbers IMO.

Bottom line, when we buy our next AVR or AVP, we are most likely going to look at price, features, and history of reliability and compatibility.

But with that being said, since we audiophiles, it doesn't hurt to have slew rate of 50, damping factor of 1,000, SNR of 130dB+, XTalk of 100dB+, and THD of < 0.001%. :D
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
IMO the only thing that determines quality of any kind is RELIABILITY.

An AVR that lasts 20+ years is high quality.
Good luck with that!
If I understood @M Code correctly, all modern mainstream AVR manufacturers are designing with a service life of around 10 years - including Yamaha! Yamaha may still have better reliability, but I don't believe you can expect 20 years any longer!

How old was your Denon AVR 5308 (?) when you sold it? that was before the decision to design for a shorter service life, IIRC!

An AVP that is the world's first and only fully balanced AVP, made in Japan, weighs 60lbs, costs $7,500 but fails in 8 years is LOW QUALITY REGARDLESS of any of those numbers IMO.
Have you heard any good explanation on why this unit was so poor? I have to believe that since Denon discontinued it and no other company has dared to make the equivalent that Denon (and other companies that analyzed it) discovered some reason not attempt to match/improve it!
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Good luck with that!
If I understood @M Code correctly, all modern mainstream AVR manufacturers are designing with a service life of around 10 years - including Yamaha! Yamaha may still have better reliability, but I don't believe you can expect 20 years any longer!

How old was your Denon AVR 5308 (?) when you sold it? that was before the decision to design for a shorter service life, IIRC!


Have you heard any good explanation on why this unit was so poor? I have to believe that since Denon discontinued it and no other company has dared to make the equivalent that Denon (and other companies that analyzed it) discovered some reason not attempt to match/improve it!
Hmmm.... :rolleyes:
I don't recall mentioning the service life of 10 years...
But I would agree in principle, a well-designed AVR should last @ least 5-7 years... But then again the AVRs designed/built today have more electronics and amplifiers stuffed inside. Plus they seem to have less overdesign as well..
IMO... :)
The 5308 was well-built like a rugged, battleship but that was done @ a different place/time.. I do have a Yamaha receiver that is approaching 10 years old and is holding up well, but then again I have a Marantz 2600 built in 1978 making > 40 years old that still rocks out in another system that I play just vinyl on.. To me the biggest problem affecting an AVR's reliability is to make sure it has plenty of ventilation, 4-5" free-air clearance and nothing stacked on top... Excessive heat will destroy electronics..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Hmmm.... :rolleyes:
I don't recall mentioning the service life of 10 years...
But I would agree in principle, a well-designed AVR should last @ least 5-7 years... But then again the AVRs designed/built today have more electronics and amplifiers stuffed inside. Plus they seem to have less overdesign as well..
IMO... :)
The 5308 was well-built like a rugged, battleship but that was done @ a different place/time.. I do have a Yamaha receiver that is approaching 10 years old and is holding up well, but then again I have a Marantz 2600 built in 1978 making > 40 years old that still rocks out in another system that I play just vinyl on.. To me the biggest problem affecting an AVR's reliability is to make sure it has plenty of ventilation, 4-5" free-air clearance and nothing stacked on top... Excessive heat will destroy electronics..

Just my $0.02... ;)
Sorry I misremembered your statement(s).
Thanks for the clarification of the specifics!
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
An AVR that lasts 20+ years is high quality.
This is my sentiment also, but ONLY for the part of the market that buys long terms. I'm one of those. My amp is mid 90' and I don't really want to change (although deox is needed). So that's 20 years+

OTOH, how to defend this position if most of the people plan to change when enough new technology is implemented? You change your perfectly good and working AVR with no HDMI for the one that has HDMI, only to have it changed for a 4K one later on.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Good luck with that!
If I understood @M Code correctly, all modern mainstream AVR manufacturers are designing with a service life of around 10 years - including Yamaha! Yamaha may still have better reliability, but I don't believe you can expect 20 years any longer!

How old was your Denon AVR 5308 (?) when you sold it? that was before the decision to design for a shorter service life, IIRC!


Have you heard any good explanation on why this unit was so poor? I have to believe that since Denon discontinued it and no other company has dared to make the equivalent that Denon (and other companies that analyzed it) discovered some reason not attempt to match/improve it!
I sold the 5308 about 2 months ago. But it was never used that much. It was kept in storage the whole time I was using the AVP-A1HD.

The 5308 had the HDMI board replaced while under warranty. But it was never used much since I bought the AVP-A1HD shortly after the 5308.

I should NOT have said the AVP-A1 was low quality. I should have said “High quality, but not DESIGNED to LAST”.

I guess there is a difference between quality vs design. Like you said, if they were designed to only last 10 years, then I guess we can’t expect it to last 20 years. But they can be built with high quality. I thought it was designed to last 20YR. :D So I take back what I said there.

But I'm not too happy about the fact that I bought 2 brand new Denon high-end components ($5,500 AVR-5308 and $7,500 AVP-A1HD) and both of them required repairs. My luck?
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I sold the 5308 about 2 months ago. But it was never used that much. It was kept in storage the whole time I was using the AVP-A1HD.

The 5308 had the HDMI board replaced while under warranty. But it was never used much since I bought the AVP-A1HD shortly after the 5308.

I should NOT have said the AVP-A1 was low quality. I should have said “High quality, but not DESIGNED to LAST”.

I guess there is a difference between quality vs design. Like you said, if they were designed to only last 10 years, then I guess we can’t expect it to last 20 years. But they can be built with high quality. I thought it was designed to last 20YR. :D So I take back what I said there.
The main thought behind my post is that a 20 year life with any modern AVR is probably not realistic. Much more likely if you go back to the feature level of the 5308 (I have not heard of HDMI failures being routine on them, although I am sure your's was not the only one). And 20 years is totally viable if you go back to simple analog stereo receivers (which were not taxed by poorly matched low impedance inefficient speakers)!

I have a Yamaha R-S700 that would not surprise me if it lasted 20 years (only analog inputs). Of course, it can be argued that this unit was obsolete before I bought it! Seems like they had a R-S300, R-S500, and the R-S700. I kind of wish they had kept at least one of these in production just to have a reasonably priced long-life unit, but I certainly can't blame Yamaha for adding digital/optical and network/BT/musiccast capabilities. Those two additions may not add that much heat or reduced cooling, but in the process, they are pulling from the AVR parts bins which are no longer designed with the expectation of lasting 20+ years. (and I certainly don't know that my R-S700 did not come mostly out of the AVR parts bin)

But, I'm sure the manufacturers have done their homework. If we go back 20 years, I think we would be missing HDMI, networking, wi-fi, Heos/MusicCast/Airplay, and BT.
I don't really know the history of AVRs, but I might guess the following are also developments of the last two decades: Auto setup for level matching & distance/delay, PEQ, bass management (mainly proper crossover in the AVR), and RoomEQ.
Most recently, for me, the D&M app for Audyssey is a fairly compelling reason to upgrade!

You could argue the necessity for any one of these features, but taken as a group, I think after close to 10 years most people are going to feel like they would like to upgrade and they are not going to be overly upset if a failure of the unit helps drive that decision.

What led you to (effectively) retire your 5308 so early?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
What led you to (effectively) retire your 5308 so early?
I was afraid the AVR-5308 would FAIL in a few years.

Yeah, only time will tell if these new AVRs can last 20+ years.
 

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