Auralex great gramma

A

asere

Audioholic
Has anyone tried a subdude for the sub. My sub is side firing on carpet. I was told a platform would help.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Yes....buy one!! No one will tell you differently. It may be the best $50-60 you can spend.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I recently purchased a Subdude HD for my SB13-Ultra. I think that it's well made, and I was very happy with the fit and finish of the black cloth cover. I don't know if it made any difference in the sound, but I bought it mostly to elevate the sub so that I could run a cable underneath of it - and with all of the praise that they get, it seemed like a fine choice to give it a try.
 
A

asere

Audioholic
I recently purchased a Subdude HD for my SB13-Ultra. I think that it's well made, and I was very happy with the fit and finish of the black cloth cover. I don't know if it made any difference in the sound, but I bought it mostly to elevate the sub so that I could run a cable underneath of it - and with all of the praise that they get, it seemed like a fine choice to give it a try.
That's just it. I don't know if it will make a difference in sound and don't want to have to waste 85 dollars. The kind that I need is the Great Gramma because the Subdude is too small for my sub. My sub sounds tight and other times boomy depending on the content.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Oops - I should add a few things.

First, it isn't easy at all to slide one of these on carpet once you put a heavy sub on it. My sub is in a corner where I can't lift it into place, so I had to find a way to do that - I used furniture sliders underneath of it.

Second, if your sub is heavier on one side, it will likely tilt because the foam compresses. That didn't occur to me until I put my front-heavy SB13 on the platform and watched it lean forward. :) I put something under the front lip to keep it level.
 
A

asere

Audioholic
Oops - I should add a few things.

First, it isn't easy at all to slide one of these on carpet once you put a heavy sub on it. My sub is in a corner where I can't lift it into place, so I had to find a way to do that - I used furniture sliders underneath of it.

Second, if your sub is heavier on one side, it will likely tilt because the foam compresses. That didn't occur to me until I put my front-heavy SB13 on the platform and watched it lean forward. :) I put something under the front lip to keep it level.
According to the specs the great gramma holds up to 300lbs.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
There are a number of threads detailing the benefits of these products if you really want to get info. A search should quickly turn them up. The short answer was already given, yes, it is a benefit in nearly all cases. Most say it works well on suspended floor, but I had mine on concrete slab and it still helped quite a bit.

Yes, the Great Gramma holds 300lbs, but as mentioned, it is just foam. If 200 of that 300lbs is on one end, it will tilt.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I think it's a great product personally. Decoupling your subwoofer from the ground is a very good thing IMO. I've not run a million tests, but subwoofer bleed into other rooms went down a lot when I got mine a few years ago. It's not the silver bullet for a bad sub, but it can help some.

It also makes moving the sub easier IMO. I don't have to tilt it I can slide it off the Gamma, but my sub isn't 300lbs either.
 
A

asere

Audioholic
There are a number of threads detailing the benefits of these products if you really want to get info. A search should quickly turn them up. The short answer was already given, yes, it is a benefit in nearly all cases. Most say it works well on suspended floor, but I had mine on concrete slab and it still helped quite a bit.

Yes, the Great Gramma holds 300lbs, but as mentioned, it is just foam. If 200 of that 300lbs is on one end, it will tilt.
I have a HSU that weight around 95lbs. I was looking into the Auralex great gramma but its 30x20 and my sub is 25x 17 so it would overlap.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I think subwoofer pads are BS snake oil. If money is tight, that is not something I would be spending it on. Is there any hard evidence anywhere that sub pads actually help anything- nope, just anecdotes. I think if you are gullible enough to buy one, you are probably impressionable enough to believe you can hear a difference.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I have a HSU that weight around 95lbs. I was looking into the Auralex great gramma but its 30x20 and my sub is 25x 17 so it would overlap.
Doesn't matter if it overhangs a little bit.

I think subwoofer pads are BS snake oil. If money is tight, that is not something I would be spending it on. Is there any hard evidence anywhere that sub pads actually help anything- nope, just anecdotes. I think if you are gullible enough to buy one, you are probably impressionable enough to believe you can hear a difference.
Sorry man, but this is one that is definitely NOT snake oil. I wouldn't recommend them if I didn't try it myself or if I wasn't happy with the results. Same thing with MoPads - they work. Auralex is FAR from a snake oil company, that's for sure.

If price is a problem, these can also be DIY'ed relatively easily.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I do like the mopads (speakers on a plastic table), but I honestly never noticed any difference with the great gramma.
 
A

asere

Audioholic
Doesn't matter if it overhangs a little bit.



Sorry man, but this is one that is definitely NOT snake oil. I wouldn't recommend them if I didn't try it myself or if I wasn't happy with the results. Same thing with MoPads - they work. Auralex is FAR from a snake oil company, that's for sure.

If price is a problem, these can also be DIY'ed relatively easily.
What materials are needed for DIY?
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
What the Auralex SubDude and GRAMMA risers offer is decoupling. Nothing more and nothing less.

ShadyJ is well off his rocker on this one. Decoupling is a basic principle of acoustics and mechanics. If decoupling is "snake oil BS", then so are shock absorbers on car wheels. His stance is utterly ridiculous.

But whether or not the Great GRAMMA will be of any benefit to you or worth the price is all a matter of your particular situation. If your subwoofer is already decoupled, or it produces extremely little physical vibration due to a force-balanced design, then a GRAMMA riser isn't going to add or subtract anything. And you don't have to use the Auralex brand specifically. Any form of decoupling will do. The GRAMMA risers just happen to be effective decouplers and not insanely expensive, so they're easy to recommend. But you can certainly build your own, or find some other means of decoupling your subwoofer - such as a few layers of thick carpet pad, or even just a stack of blankets or something.

All you're after is some way to prevent the physical vibrations of your subwoofer or speakers from reaching the hard surface on which they are sitting. So you just need to suspend the sub/speakers, or put some sort of shock absorber underneath them. That's all the GRAMMA risers are: shock absorbers. So anything that is squishy enough to act as a shock absorber, but still stiff enough to not get crushed and compress to the point of basically being solid under the weight of the sub/speakers will work just fine. Like I say, that can be carpet pad, blankets, mouse pads, packing foam...whatever. Just something to damp any vibrations.

Where people go wrong is in thinking that ANY floor is inert. There's no such thing as an inert floor. Every floor, no matter what it's made of, can transmit physical vibrations. Concrete, wood, stone, marble - doesn't matter. None of them are inert. So if your subwoofer vibrates (and it does), and it is coupled to the floor, then your floor will vibrate. Simple as that. And your floor is connected to the walls. The walls are connected to the ceiling. And those vibrations will carry throughout your entire home's structure. Just like you'd feel every tiny bump in the road if you didn't have squishy rubber tires and shocks in your car. That's why we need decoupling, and that's what the GRAMMA risers offer. Whether they're worth the asking price is dependent on what you personally think is affordable.

The final bit is understanding what happens when your subwoofer or speakers have "feet" of any kind. These might be "spikes" or hard rubber feet, or just little nubs that protrude from the bottom, etc. It's all about surface area. Pounds per square inch. The downward force is just the weight of the sub or speaker. That downward force is going to act upon the given surface area. If you have a flat bottom on the sub or speaker, the weight of the speaker/sub is distributed over the entire surface area of the bottom of the speaker/sub. That means low pounds per square inch.

When you have any sort of "feet" or spikes or whatever, now you have the same downward force - the weight of the sub/speaker - acting upon a much much smaller surface area. A tiny surface area. Just the little "feet" or the points of the spikes! Now you've got very very high pounds per square inch. Same number of pounds. WAY fewer square inches of surface area.

One way to picture it: bed of nails. Would you rather lay down on a bed of 10,000 nails. Or a bed of just 4 nails? That's what's going on when your subwoofer or speakers have "feet" or spikes. You're basically sitting them on the bed of 4 nails. Way way higher pounds per square inch.

So any sort of "feet" or spikes work to COUPLE the subwoofer or speakers to the floor, or whatever surface they're sitting on. This is the opposite of what you should do. Coupling is great for physical stability, but it's horrible for sound because you're now ensuring that the floor or desk or stand, etc. will vibrate in sympathy with the speakers/sub. The only thing that should be vibrating is the sub or speakers. Not the surface on which they're sitting.

So, should you buy a Great GRAMMA? Answer is: it depends.

If your sub is already decoupled, then no. If you'd rather spend less on some other form of decoupling, then no.

But your subwoofer definitely SHOULD be decoupled somehow. It vibrates for sure. I'm pretty sure the model of subwoofer you own has "feet".

If you wanna "try before you buy", just fold up a few thick blankets and put them under your sub temporarily. Obviously, don't block any of the drivers or ports with the blankets.

If your floor was coupled to the subwoofer before, and thus vibrating in sympathy, having the "shock absorber" of the blankets will result in lowered room distortion, and fewer rattles and hums from other objects.

The biggest difference though is often in other rooms of the house. Decoupling's greatest benefit is a reduction in the bass that "travels" or "bleeds" into other rooms via structure-borne sound transmission. As opposed to the airborne sound transmission, which obviously still remains.

Anywho, it's a cheap and easy experiment. Certainly easy enough to try for yourself and decide whether the results warrant a more physically stable and better looking decoupling device than some stacked blankets ;)
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
What the Auralex SubDude and GRAMMA risers offer is decoupling. Nothing more and nothing less.

ShadyJ is well off his rocker on this one. Decoupling is a basic principle of acoustics and mechanics. If decoupling is "snake oil BS", then so are shock absorbers on car wheels. His stance is utterly ridiculous.
Decoupling? It's technically damping, the conversion of mechanical energy into heat. Shock absorbers on a car reduce the amplitude of oscillations along the axis of the shock absorber, by converting the motion into heat, and the objective is to have the tire stay in contact with the road. One of these risers, or your blanket example, is converting the mechanical motion of the subwoofer into heat. The subwoofer is still coupled, but the damping material in the riser or the blanket acts as a damper.

Other than this quibble, I agree with your post. Risers are not snake oil. I created a simple riser by putting ceramic tiles under the feet of my sub. The tiles are on thick carpet, the carpet on a thick pad, and the pad is on the sub-floor. It's probably not as good as the Great Gramma, but it looks better. :)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
What materials are needed for DIY?
Really all you need is some packing foam that is dense enough to support your sub's weight that is about 2-3" thick. The Gramma is nicely built, but is basically some carpeted wood with foam attached to the bottom. Even without the wood, the foam will still decouple the sub from the floor. I had rubber feet on my sub and the Gramma still made a big difference, likely because the softer decoupling of the foam transmits NO vibration, compared to rubber feet which transmit some and spikes which still transmit more or less all vibration through the tips (see FirstReflection's comments).

 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
There is a relevant discussion going on at avsforum pertaining to this subject. Like was mentioned there, if bass isolation pads make such a big difference, the results should be measurable. So where are those measurements? If you sub is buzzing hard enough to transmit a lot of vibration to your floor, that is a problem with your sub, not the floor. A sub with a properly built cabinet shouldn't be shaking the floor at all, it should be heavy enough and braced well enough that the driver's motion isn't throwing it around.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
A sub generates a lot of vibration. That vibration gets transmitted directly to what it is coupled to and those things (your floor and other items sitting near by) will "inherit" those vibrations. Decoupling the sub removes the sympathetic vibration from everything else allowing you to hear only the sub. What other things might be vibrating and making the sound less clear by adding their resonance too will vary depending on what you have, the type of floor, the sub itself, etc... My tempest was a down firing 15" and adding the Gramma improved the upper end of the sub considerably because I was hearing only the sub now. It also removed boom in other parts of the house because so much vibration was being directly transmitted to the house.

Theory is great, but until you've actually tried it and found no benefit, it isn't something that is easily dismissed. I've tried it with multiple subs and it has helped all but one. That sub is my Empire, a dual opposed design that transmits almost no vibration through the cabinet.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
There is a relevant discussion going on at avsforum pertaining to this subject. Like was mentioned there, if bass isolation pads make such a big difference, the results should be measurable. So where are those measurements? If you sub is buzzing hard enough to transmit a lot of vibration to your floor, that is a problem with your sub, not the floor. A sub with a properly built cabinet shouldn't be shaking the floor at all, it should be heavy enough and braced well enough that the driver's motion isn't throwing it around.
Since we're discussing damping devices the measurements would be the amplitude of various frequencies outside the room or in the structure. That would depend on the individual structure the subwoofer is in.

It hadn't occurred to me that some people would think these things actually improve the sound of a particular subwoofer. That strikes me as unlikely, but reducing the transmission of sound through the floor is often a good thing. When I had my Salon 2s on the Revel-supplied carpet spikes the fireplace insert rattled constantly. When I removed the spikes and just sat the speakers on the carpet the rattling is minimized. I can't hear any difference in bass quality.

Some speakers, like my old Legacy Focus, had to be used with spikes on thick carpet or they weren't stable, because they had a small footprint and a lot of height. For the Legacys I used a piece of plywood as a thin platform under the speaker and got rid of the spikes, and the plywood plus the carpet and pad was enough of an isolation mechanism to cure rattling in that case.
 

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