Audyssey MultEQ App on an iPhone => Work Around?

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

I've been waiting for time and motivation to get the Audyssey MultEQ App for our Atmos setup using a Denon AVRX-4400H. Feedback on the App has been mixed, and numerous posts around the web have discouraged me from installing it on my iPhone. Especially since it's a small iPhone SE 2020. Supposedly my fat fingers would struggle to adjust the set points. (I don't have an iPad. The Misses does, but let's not go there...) Anyway, I heard that Audyssey was working on a PC based application (sort of to compete with REW (?) - at least it sounded like that to me.) So I put things off waiting to see how it was going to work.

I watched Gene's latest YouTube last night (which was great. Take a look if you are interested. Definitely worthwhile.) on the Audyssey MultEQ-X . It convinced me I can't afford the PC based version. OMG Amazon Canada wants $195.22 (Free Delivery - !) for the calibrated microphone, and it's $250 CAD for the software. With taxes it's almost $500. The WAF just isn't there for this type of luxury. So what's a guy to do?

He comes up with a work around. I happen to have a couple (if I can find the second one...I spent 20 minutes looking for it this morning, but no joy ) Apple Lightning to Digital AV Adapters. Apple says:

"Use the Lightning Digital AV Adapter with your iPhone, iPad or iPod with Lightning connector. The Lightning Digital AV Adapter supports mirroring of what is displayed on your device screen — including apps, presentations, websites, slideshows and more — to your HDMI-equipped TV, display, projector or other compatible display in up to 1080p HD."

I also have an unused (but older) Microsoft Mobile Bluetooth Keyboard 6000, and a Microsoft 222-00001 Bluetooth BlueTrack Mouse. So I spent a couple hours (yes, I'm slow and cautious when I muck about with unknown stuff - as I really don't want to mess up my iPhone. ) and got both Bluetooth devices working, and configured it all while plugged into a 55 inch Samsung LED TV. A little quirky having a mouse & a keyboard with an iPhone, but fun to muck about with.

So now I was ready to purchase the Audyssey MultEQ App for the iPhone, as it's $27.99 CAD and the Misses won't care in the least. But I thought maybe I should get input from you guys as I've got on nagging question. One of the Sports Apps I have only works in Portrait - which annoys me all the time - almost daily. If you rotate it to Landscape, it just means you get to turn your head to read it - watch a replay, etc..

I just want some assurance the MultEQ App will work in Landscape on my iPhone.

Can you advise me of your experience with it? If it works in Landscape, I buy it and advise how it goes for me.

As always, thanks for the assist.

 

[ryanosaur]

The App only does landscape on the phone.
I have used it since the beginning for me, in 2018, with my Marantz.
It can be a pain to play with the curve, but is doable. I found that you can start a set point near where you want and move it to the correct frequency and decibel point. There are some issues in that the App will not let you get too close to another existing point.
You can further fine tune the XT32 App with Ratbudysey... @PENG and @Pogre have played with that and can possibly help you if you are interested in getting that OCD.

Frankly, I found the two most useful parts of the App to be turning off Mid Range Compensation, and setting a Curtain near my Schroeder Frequency to not correct above.
One other nice feature is that you can save several calibration files in the App. This allows you to experiment a bit, if you choose. switching calibration files is not instantaneous. You do have to upload the file you want to use to the AVR. You can only run one file at a time. It takes maybe 2-3 minutes to changes calibration files.

Frankly, I like the App. Yes, it could be done better, but it is useful, even if you barely play with it.

 

[Pogre]

I have zero experience using the app with i-anything. I have a 12" android tablet so it's large enough for me to get in there and tweak, tho as @ryanosaur mentioned you can't have much of an adjustment too close to your set point so it's a tad limited, but still useful. You can use Ratbuddyssey which allows for some very precise, very tight adjustments. It's not "plug n play" easy so to speak, but not super complicated either. It is kinda clunky and ponderous tho, but it's a tweaker's dream if you're willing to roll your sleeves up and dig in.

Announcing ratbuddyssey - a tool for tweaking Audyssey...

www.avsforum.com

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks for the quick response gents. I downloaded the App onto my phone but I'm too tired (and the Misses has gone to bed) for me to start mucking around with that system tonight.

By the way, are any of you going to purchase Audyssey MultEQ-X ?

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for the quick response gents. I downloaded the App onto my phone but I'm too tired (and the Misses has gone to bed) for me to start mucking around with that system tonight.

By the way, are any of you going to purchase Audyssey MultEQ-X ?

Not likely.

Just a heads up to help you get started:
You will need to run Audyssey again, through the app. As I stated earlier, once you are ready, you will need to upload that Audyssey calibration to the AVR: it is not automatic.
I would suggest getting a good calibration file that you can upload right away, assuming you want to use your system… you can then make a copy of the calibration and start editing it. When ready, you can load your edited file in.

Cheers!

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the quick response gents. I downloaded the App onto my phone but I'm too tired (and the Misses has gone to bed) for me to start mucking around with that system tonight.

By the way, are any of you going to purchase Audyssey MultEQ-X ?

There is almost nothing the $20 app (if you also use Ratbuddyssey) cannot do that MultEQ X can do, except of course the X is much easier to use.

The App actually has one feature that MultEQ X cannot do, not yet anyway, but Audyssey may add the feature in a future upgrade, at least if people request for it I assume.. The feature is, if you use Ratbuddssey with the App, you can tweak each channel individually. This is only important if you want to play, to the point you can flatten each channel to the point where the two curve would almost overlap. To me that would be for fun only as I couldn't tell a difference if their variations of a few dB here and there, not with music for sure, with pure tones, may be.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

Thanks for the responses. I got to muck around with this today.

(More time now I'm retired, and the Misses is still working . As Covid has lessened, she's back to 3 days a week in the office, and 2 at home.)

It took a while for me to figure out how to get the iPhone displayed on the TV in the Games Room. It's our latest toy (last year) a 75 inch Samsung QLED. Sometimes it's too smart for you (and the lack of a decent manual to support it is my worst concern with it). Until I told it the iPhone was a PC, it wouldn't display the screen. It took me a while to guess that solution. But after that it was pretty much like running the Audyssey setup on the Denon. The Bluetooth Mouse and Keyboard worked flawlessly. Definitely a good idea! A 75 inch TV is a BIG Monitor! I sat at the back of the room while doing the setup.

Thanks for the tip @ryanosaur about saving it up to the receiver. I have only partially read some of the posts on this App, so some of my remarks may seem a bit dense, but here goes.

I was surprised I couldn't email the screenshots/graphs from my phone. I emailed the File thinking it would have them in it, but it's got an .ady extension, and nothing I have will read it. I'm assuming ratbuddyssey will read it. I guess I'll go looking for it soon.

So I took a couple screenshots off the phone and emailed them back to myself.

Here's the Front Right

Here's the Front Left

Here's the Surround Left

I remember that by default Audyssey put in the "Midrange Compensation" dip - expecting that is the crossover point. So I turned it off on the Front Speakers but kept it on the surrounds and overheads for the first pass. Did you guys do that too?

The system is currently set up as a 5.2.4 but I can switch it to 7.2.2 as the speakers and cables are all installed for that. Once I've got a better handle on this App, I'll try 7.2.2. Some day I'll hook up a small amplifier I have, and, just for grins, try 7.2.4.

That one tweak on the Fronts was the only thing I did, except I moved my Subs to as close to the 1/4 and 3/4 points across the front wall. (One moved about 4 inches and the other about 18 inches.) The Bass seemed much improved over my non-App Audyssey Set-up. My Subs are old 12 inch Klipsch, and not to current standards but to get a new pair could be a problem (WAF). I'll make do with them for now and dream about getting something new.

My interests are TV Sports (Football & Hockey), Concerts on BluRay (and DVD), and Tunes - mostly on FLAC but I do have a Spotify Premium Account. But I typically listen to that on various Bluetooth Headphones while I work about the house / yard. So, I'm not much of a movie person - even though I've got a quite few BluRay & DVD Movies (A few 4K). So my Subs really don't have to dig down much. At least that's what I keep telling myself.

I have a calibrated MIC and an old version of REW (and a couple laptops I can run it on). I'm wondering if I should go find the latest REW and see if I can measure the Games Room setup before and after correction. The "after" graphs above are (I'm thinking) just what the App thinks is is and not something it measured.

Do you have any hints or methods for using this App?

Thanks for the assist.

 

[PENG]

I was surprised I couldn't email the screenshots/graphs from my phone. I emailed the File thinking it would have them in it, but it's got an .ady extension, and nothing I have will read it. I'm assuming ratbuddyssey will read it. I guess I'll go looking for it soon.

Yes Rat will read the .ady files, in the owner's thread, I had included the screenshots as read by Rat.

So I took a couple screenshots off the phone and emailed them back to myself.

I remember that by default Audyssey put in the "Midrange Compensation" dip - expecting that is the crossover point. So I turned it off on the Front Speakers but kept it on the surrounds and overheads for the first pass. Did you guys do that too?

I did too, but this one one of those major misconceptions of the century. For a long time, people, including me, have assumed incorrectly that Audyssey would enforce a dip (so called BBC dip) unless you disable the feature, and until the App there was no such user option.

The fact is, as clarified in a couple of recent Youtube videos, Audyssey and Denon clearly explained that Audyssey's MRC would result in (not create) such a dip if your speakers were designed to have that dip. So depending on your speakers you may or may not see that dip. Still, even if your speakers are not designed to have the BBC dip, you should still disable MRC with the App just to be sure, though again, even if you don't, you won't have the dip as long as the speakers was designed not to have it, and was designed properly. In the video, the Denon rep seemed to suggest that you should use REW to find out if your speakers were designed for the dip, and they were, then keep MRC enable, in order to preserve the designed dip. To me, it is up the user, if he prefer not to have the dip regardless, then it really isn't wrong to let Audyssey flatten it out.

Audyssey failed badly on this count, as I know there are people who hate the MRC and that might have been the only reason they avoided D+M's or won't use Audyssey regardless, without knowing the fact that they wouldn't have the dip anyway if their speakers weren't designed to have it in the first place.

The system is currently set up as a 5.2.4 but I can switch it to 7.2.2 as the speakers and cables are all installed for that. Once I've got a better handle on this App, I'll try 7.2.2. Some day I'll hook up a small amplifier I have, and, just for grins, try 7.2.4.

If you have the room for it, go for 7.1.4, imo it is much better.

That one tweak on the Fronts was the only thing I did, except I moved my Subs to as close to the 1/4 and 3/4 points across the front wall. (One moved about 4 inches and the other about 18 inches.) The Bass seemed much improved over my non-App Audyssey Set-up. My Subs are old 12 inch Klipsch, and not to current standards but to get a new pair could be a problem (WAF). I'll make do with them for now and dream about getting something new.

Now that you have time, there is a lot more to play with the App.

I have a calibrated MIC and an old version of REW (and a couple laptops I can run it on). I'm wondering if I should go find the latest REW and see if I can measure the Games Room setup before and after correction. The "after" graphs above are (I'm thinking) just what the App thinks is is and not something it measured.

I think you should, why not?

Do you have any hints or methods for using this App?

There are tons of info on AVSF, but I also did start the MultEQ Editor App users thread right here on Audioholics, to share hints/methods etc among users, so take a look over there if you are interested.

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks @PENG, today I've got some chores to do (including Costco) so I'll see when I can get back to adjusting the system. I thought this morning I'd give some references built into this thread on the CCB-8s across the front as vast majority of the material comes from them, and the system does revolve around their impact. These are from James Larson's Review which was one of the deciding factors for me before I ordered them from another country! (Remember I am Canadian! ).

James states: "The direct-axis frequency response curve for the CCB-8 is not perfect but it is not bad either. It should be kept in mind when viewing these curves that this speaker was not intended to be listened to on its direct axis, but around 15 degrees off axis. The 100 Hz bump is more of a measurement anomaly than the speaker’s actual low frequency performance. Up to 10 kHz, the response is respectable, if imperfect. It stays within a +/- 3 dB window, although we do see a slight bump and dip near the crossover frequency of 1,500 Hz. These narrow ripples and dips are imperfections, to be sure, but the overall response stays within a baseline amplitude, and, in terms of audibility and accuracy, this is much more preferable to wide bands of elevation or depression."

So he did identify the crossover Dip at1,500 Hz., which I forgot. It's been a few years (2017) since he wrote this and I did my pre-purchase research in 2018 before buying.

Last night I found and pulled down REW V5.20.5, (revised 19th February 2022), and I found the Calibration file for the MiniDSP UMIK-1 Mic. So now I'll need to go look for the Mic itself. I barely scratched the surface on REW with my last go around. I think it was about 2016. I just mucked around taking measurements of an early Man-Cave basement system some years ago. I never did anything beyond that as Life / Work got in the way.

I'd really like to get this system dialed in as best I can, and understand exactly what the impacts are of each tweak as I go. I'll post again soon.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

Remarkably I was able to find the MiniDSP UMIK-1 Mic. It was right where I thought I'd last seen it -about 4 years ago - which was amazing.

Unfortunately, with the Misses working from the home office today (Her in-office days are typically Tuesday, Wednesday, & Thursday) I can't light up the Denon AVRX-4400H Games Room system => as it's directly below the home office. (And that wouldn't end well.) But I'm thinking I need a refresher on REW before proceeding. Actually, I never was anywhere near proficient with REW, so a complete training is probably in order.

My current thought process is to use the MultEQ App to tweak that system and use REW to measure the results. I was surprised the App doesn't have you check the results, at least I haven't seen that yet. Does that approach sound reasonable to you?

As for REW training, I'll head over to AVS Forum as @PENG suggested and look around. (I'm just -Jim- there too since 2014, but don't really post there much.) I'll also check out some YouTube videos. Of course I expect the REW software must have changed a lot since I played with it, and finding a video for a beginner using a (mostly) current version of REW could be a challenge. I see @Matthew J Poes has a YouTube video from 2019, which may be dated, but I'll start there.

For REW training, at least initially, I'm thinking of plugging it into my basement system in the Man Cave / Junk Room. I have a cobbled together 7.1 system with a Denon AVR-S900W. I'm wondering if testing sweeps will be audible 2 floors up. If I remember correctly, I think you need to dial it up to a 75 dB reference level, but I guess I'll learn that from the Videos and such. If I can train on the AVR-S900W system, then I can test / adjust the AVRX-4400H in the Games Room on Tuesday, Wednesday, & Thursday.

Please advise if you know of a good video of site that can help me out.

Thanks for the assist.

 

[ryanosaur]

The basics of REW has not changed that much. Dude continues to add functionality, and I think there is a paid version for some newer functionality, IIRC, but for what most of us are doing, it's still freeware.

I think Poes maybe even had two videos on REW. Worth checking out for certain!

 

[Verdinut]

Yes Rat will read the .ady files, in the owner's thread, I had included the screenshots as read by Rat.



I did too, but this one one of those major misconceptions of the century. For a long time, people, including me, have assumed incorrectly that Audyssey would enforce a dip (so called BBC dip) unless you disable the feature, and until the App there was no such user option.

The fact is, as clarified in a couple of recent Youtube videos, Audyssey and Denon clearly explained that Audyssey's MRC would result in (not create) such a dip if your speakers were designed to have that dip. So depending on your speakers you may or may not see that dip. Still, even if your speakers are not designed to have the BBC dip, you should still disable MRC with the App just to be sure, though again, even if you don't, you won't have the dip as long as the speakers was designed not to have it, and was designed properly. In the video, the Denon rep seemed to suggest that you should use REW to find out if your speakers were designed for the dip, and they were, then keep MRC enable, in order to preserve the designed dip. To me, it is up the user, if he prefer not to have the dip regardless, then it really isn't wrong to let Audyssey flatten it out.

Audyssey failed badly on this count, as I know there are people who hate the MRC and that might have been the only reason they avoided D+M's or won't use Audyssey regardless, without knowing the fact that they wouldn't have the dip anyway if their speakers weren't designed to have it in the first place.



If you have the room for it, go for 7.1.4, imo it is much better.



Now that you have time, there is a lot more to play with the App.



I think you should, why not?



There are tons of info on AVSF, but I also did start the MultEQ Editor App users thread right here on Audioholics, to share hints/methods etc among users, so take a look over there if you are interested.

I am thinking of ordering that new Audyssey MultEQ-X software. Using Ratbuddyssey is awkward to operate and transfer info to the smartphone etc.

I have the Dayton OmniMic software for testing speakers. Do you think I could manage with this new Audyssey product without having to get their new calibrated Audyssey mic which costs over C$200 with taxes? I would use the mic which came with the AVR-X3700H for picking up the existing response from the receiver, and then work from there with the OmniMic curves.

 

[PENG]

I am thinking of ordering that new Audyssey MultEQ-X software. Using Ratbuddyssey is awkward to operate and transfer info to the smartphone etc.

I have the Dayton OmniMic software fo testing speakers. Do you think I could manage with this new Audyssey product without having to get their new calibrated Audyssey mike which costs over C$200 with taxes? I would use the mike which came with the AVR-X3700H for picking up the existing response from the receiver, and then work from there with the OmniMic curves.

In my opinion, there is no need to spend $200 on the new mic. The original mics are also calibrated mics and in my experience it is very accurate for the job. If you plotted REW graphs you can verify it yourself. You can do 10 sweeps without moving the mic and you will see that the 10 curves for say 20 to 20,000 Hz would basically be on top of each other, within +/- 1 dB, may be a little more at a few spots. Why would anyone need better than that I have no ideal.

I understand you had trouble working with the MultEQ App so for you the MultEQ X may be a good idea. To me, the thing that stops me from wanting it is not the $200, but it is the fact that it is tie to the AVR. If it fails, you can replace it and still use the same license but they would only let you do it if your replace it in kind. So if you upgrade the AVR from say AVR-X3700H to X4700H, you would have to pay $200 for a new license.

It really can't do anything (things that matter) that the App cannot do.

 

[PENG]

Hi Gents,

Please advise if you know of a good video of site that can help me out.

I suggest you start with the links provided by the author of REW:

Some guides to REW and acoustic measurement | AV NIRVANA

Official REW (Room EQ Wizard) Support Forum | AV NIRVANA

Matthew did a good job with links to the REW help contents:

REW Help Index (roomeqwizard.com)

As always, there's always some for dummies:

Room Measurement Tutorial for Dummies Part 1 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

When you are ready to use the Editor App with Ratbuddyssey, if you are interested, you may take a look of the following posts where we detailed some of the steps we use:

(1) The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 8 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

(1) The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 5 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

Here's an example what others managed to achieve using the App with Ratbuddyssey:

(1) The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips) | Page 6 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums, though he got some great results before even using the Ratbuddyssey.

 

[-Jim-]

Hey Gents,

Just a quick note that I am making progress with this project, but it's a slow learning curve. (Or maybe I'm a bit dense.)

A lot of the videos and web pages are for past versions of REW, which aren't quite a REW for Dummies course when you have to figure out where everything is in the newest version. (Like Java doesn't really work when you want all of the speakers to be tested. You need ASIO4ALL version 2.15 – LOW LATENCY ASIO DRIVER FOR WINDOWS AUDIO.)

I put the latest REW onto a laptop with an HDMI output, and have now (after forgetting to turn off Dynamic Volume in Audyssey => even though I saw it more than once) a set of individual graphs for the bed level speakers, and Subs, for the 5.2 setup. I don't think REW does anything with Atmos speakers, but I could be wrong. (If so please advise.)

So now I get to figure out next steps. None of the graphs ( with 1/6 smoothing) were anywhere near as flat or smooth as the Audyssey App. So there seems to be lots of room for improvement. (I wonder how much smoothing the Audyssey App is using...)

I'll keep poking at this challenge, and checking out those Links. Thanks.

 

[ryanosaur]

Please don't look at that "after" Audyssey graph and think that that is what your Speakers are doing.

If you want to see what may be happening. Do a REW sweep with Aud OFF... Say just L/C/R, then repeat with Aud ON. You should see a difference.
Whether it is better or worse is a whole other story.

However, You can use REW to help you adjust the actual output AFTER Aud does it's thing by bringing down peaks. Perhaps a slight boost here or there, applied smartly...

(Remember, you cannot boost your way out of a big Dip... that is likely a null, cancellation or such.)

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks for chiming in so quickly @ryanosaur

Please don't look at that "after" Audyssey graph and think that that is what your Speakers are doing.

Of course it is => isn't it? I realized right away the Audyssey graph shown is pure fiction (& unmeasured to boot!). The graph would be a good thing to strive for, but probably some of that "unobtanium" I see lurking about these days in cyberspace.

If you want to see what may be happening. Do a REW sweep with Aud OFF... Say just L/C/R, then repeat with Aud ON. You should see a difference.
Whether it is better or worse is a whole other story.

This must be in the level 2 lesson. So far I can figure out how to do a single channel at a time. Nothing fancy like a L/C/R SWEEP. But I'm looking for it already. I wonder where it's hidning.

However, You can use REW to help you adjust the actual output AFTER Aud does it's thing by bringing down peaks. Perhaps a slight boost here or there, applied smartly...

(Remember, you cannot boost your way out of a big Dip... that is likely a null, cancellation or such.)

Yes, I remember that, but thanks for the reminder. I'll probably need it (and others) again.

Not that I need more stuff to look up, but have you gents played around with the Room Simulation Tab in REW? Will it do rooms that aren't rectangles? I was thinking of using it to look at Sub placement, and see it it did anything wonderful compare to the 1/4 and 3/4 rule of thumb across the front wall.

Mucking about with this stuff is certainly as geeky as I've been in a while.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for chiming in so quickly @ryanosaur



Not that I need more stuff to look up, but have you gents played around with the Room Simulation Tab in REW? Will it do rooms that aren't rectangles? I was thinking of using it to look at Sub placement, and see it it did anything wonderful compare to the 1/4 and 3/4 rule of thumb across the front wall.

Mucking about with this stuff is certainly as geeky as I've been in a while.

I have not... my understanding (perhaps outdated?) is that it is designed for regular, rectangular spaces.

Anybody else?

 

[-Jim-]

The Games Room looks like this:

The dimensions are to the nearest inch but it's not to scale. (I call it a reasonable facsimile, but the LS - and the bay window it sits in, is a bit more rearward; while the door opening - and it's related RS is more forward.) Originally (in 2017 when I did the sketch before the renovation) there was a single Sub in the corner (with my old speakers => before the CCB-8s.) As I mentioned above, there are now dual subs at about 1/4 and 3/4 across the front wall (If you disregard the slanted corner .) I have the Rear Surrounds installed and wired, but as I've already used up the 9 channels of amplification, it's configured as 5.2.4. Sometime I'll hook up a small amplifier I have and see if 7.2.4 does anything for me. I don't think so, but I may also try 7.2.2 - just for grins.

@Pogre thanks for the links and all. I found A FOOL-PROOF & EASY way to set subwoofer distance and crossovers! (REW GUIDE) on YouTube and it demonstrates a point you made a couple years ago to me that went completely over my head (). You can use the distance settings in Audyssey to flatten out the Bass response. It looks look a great tool for tweaking the sound before I try playing with the App or REW.

 

[-Jim-]

@ryanosaur Today I attempted to try a L/C/R measurement (20-20K sweep in REW) but got nowhere fast. I switched to Java and toggled it to L+R but it just outputted the center channel. If I switched to L or R, it would output / test each of those just fine. I must be doing something wrong.

Any tips of links on how to do this specific task correctly will be appreciated. (By the way, this stuff just eats up time.) In the meantime, I'll keep looking for answers.